QSC-C2r - Hannabaline & the 300 Spartans - Regent

My apologies again for lagging with the data tables. Most of the regent players are already uploaded to 170bc and as soon as we get the Emperor level synchronized I will update to that level.

Here is the data table up to turn 90:



We should note that Zenga and Hotrod have surged into the middle ages ahead of the other players and Justus and Singularity are dropping through anarchy into Monarchy in preparation for disemboweling their neighbors.
 
@Ronald
A few comments to my victory. Both Germany and China where hardly in this game, weak units, infrastructure but all the towns where +2 in size :) Greatly improving my speed at running them down. My workers where long drafted to building roads for my military, I had a fairly desent workforce which helped me get around faster. A good network of marketplaces and libraries in the core cities also helped when I had to put the pedal to the metal in my research and treasury savings.

---

Thx Cracker, I know how much stuff you have going on now with the transition to PTW @ GOTM and end of GOTM 16. Hands down, I'm impressed at your work here.

A few further comments to the chart:

Ronald and Justus both have an unmatched workforce, Justus however seem to be the one of us with a weak military compared to his citycount, and he has only 4 barracks so far. Ronald seem to be a bit in the technological dark ages still, but that should change fast with his infrastructural potential and huge number of cities - and his late iron and massupgrade of 16 warriors has left him with the highest ammount of swordsmen as well. Theese are the two single most interesting players and strategies that I've seen so far in the reports. Well, Charis is entertaining as well :)

Most of us shy away from Spartans except from Flexo and Nightfang, I believe the notion is that SM and HM have higher odds of surviving a fight with a fortified spearman.

Zagnut is building pyramids, will be interesting to compare his population in 170BC, he will also get a boost from granary counts.

Takeo has the largest military and HM force, but counting his barrackses to only one, concludes that most of them are regulars I guess.

Many different buildups here, interesting how Takeo and Hotrod bypassed monarchy and republic to get to Chivalry - will be exciting to see if they actually made it in time.

Justus seems unbeatable however in his game.
 
It would be interesting to have the last chart ready before GOTM17 starts 1.march, only missing last report from Zenga and Nightfang from our Regent group now.
 
Zenga Turns 91 - 120

Sorry about the late last report. Here goes...

750BC(91)

Sabratha builds temple, start court.

Texcoco razed after swords defeat 2 spear with 1 loss. Aztecs down to 1 city.

730BC(92)

Carthage builds horse, start settler. Hadrumetum builds warrior, start temple. Hippo builds galley, start court.

Aztecs found a second city. Galley in NW spots light green borders near Munich, contact with both civs will be made next turn.

710BC(93)

Theveste builds temple, start settler.

Germans contacted they're miles behind. Move galley to gain contact with Greece first to see if this is an indication of the other civs in general.

Contact Greece, they aren't quite as badly off. The German defender in Munich had lost HP's so maybe a war is ongoing over there. Need to get embassies to make sure.

First things first, trade Greece Maths for contact with China, TM and 92g.
Quick check with China, no gold. Trade Germans Maths for WM and 15g. Trade China Maths for WM and 4g. Trade Germany Phil for 62g. Trade Germany Currency for 115g (bankrupting them). Trade Greece Currency for WM and 47g (bankrupting everyone on the other continent).

Establish all embassies except Aztec. Looks like Athens will get the Pyramids first.

690BC(94)

Cadiz founded W of Teno bringing spices on line, start temple.

670BC(95)

Carthage builds settler, start horse. Sci down to 50%, Feud in 1.

650BC(96)

Feudalism researched, go back and start Republic at 100% (due in 11).

Utica builds settler, start horse. Temple whipped in Rusicade. Swords outside the newly formed Texcoco spot the first Jag seen as defender.

630BC(97)

Rusicade builds temple, start sword.

3 swords attack Texcoco, 1st loses to Jag (giving Aztecs GA), 2nd beats archer, 3rd beats Jag, town auto-razed.

Galley near Greece finds a new land to the S and meets some friendly barbarian farmers.

610BC(98)

Theveste builds settler, start horse. Renew ROP with Persia, trade Abe TM for his WM.

590BC(99)

Carthage builds horse, start horse. Cirta founded, start sword.

570BC(100)

Persians finish the Colossus in Persepolis and start the GLH.

Zenga 570BC


550BC(101)

Nora founded, start hoplite. Oea temple whipped. Carthage switched to market.

530BC(102)

Oea builds temple, start sword. Russida founded, start hoplite.

510BC(103)

Pasgarde has flipped to America, strange it being so close to Persopolis.

490BC(104)

Sci down to 90%, Republic in 1.

470BC(105)

Republic researched, start Engineering at break even rate of 80% (due in 13). Don't switch Governments yet, will wait until Aztecs are dust.

Cadiz temple partial whipped.

450BC(106)

Troops advance on Tlatelolco.

430BC(107)

Aztec archer attacks sword and loses, sword promotes to elite.

Carthage builds market, start sword.

2 spear defeated at Tlatelolco, 1 sword lost, and the city is taken. The Aztecs are no more.

Incense deal with America expires. Don't renew since they are the next target and we should take their Incense shortly. Go for a change to Republic and hope for a good roll of the die. set some clowns in bigger cities first. 6 turns of anarchy.

410BC(108)

Wait.

390BC(109)

Not much bar the galley exploring the southern island. It's large enough for a few cities and there seem plenty of barb workers there.

370BC(110)

Same as before. There looks like another island to the W of the first. Galley N of China takes wrong path and ends turn in sea.

Zenga 370BC


350BC(111)

Chinese ask us to move out of their territory, we do. Galley sinks!

330BC(112)

Carthage riots. Never noticed growth last turn.

310BC(113)

Carthage now a Republic. America has joined us in the Middle Ages, lacking Republic. Look to take them next. Nobody has researched Literature yet, I'm not going to bother.

Sci at 60% (Engineering in 8), lux 10%, +8gpt.

290BC(114)

Utica builds horse, start sword. Abe and Xerxes are both annoyed.

270BC(115)

Carthage builds sword, start sword. Teno switches to settler and rushes.

250BC(116)

Teno builds settler, start temple.

230BC(117)

Carthage builds sword, start sword. Theveste builds horse, start horse.

Greece has entered the Middle Ages and has Monotheism, don't want to trade yet.

210BC(118)

Sulcis founded, start hoplite.

190BC(119)

Carthage builds sword, start sword. Forces gathering at Sabratha for attack on America.

170BC(120)

Engineering researched, start Invention at 60% (due in 10). Can trade for Monotheism easily but don't, making a beeline for Mil Trad and plan to eliminate at least the Americans and Persia before then.

Utica builds sword, start sword. Hippo builds court, start barracks.

With the GLH due shortly in Leptis Magna I hope to be able to settle the 2 islands to the SW as well as locate possibly more land. The Lighthouse will also allow easy travel straight to Chinese lands from our E coast.

Zenga 170BC
 
War with America was withheld until their cities were large enough to avoid auto-razing, c30AD. I'm not sure if this was worthwhile or not, or the decision to bypass the normal horse>knight upgrade and go straight for cavalry with the intention of using Leo's for helping save on upgrade costs and allowing quicker research until Mil Trad. Although I was looking to research fairly quickly, I never bothered researching Literature or building any libraries.

I've played up to 190AD so far and have wiped out the Americans (bar a single size 1 city) with the Persians and Iroquois to fall soon. Will probably have time to finish the game this weekend and would expect to finish in the middle of the pack, judging by progress of others. :)

Here's a look at the neo-Carthagian empire in 170BC.



Edit: bloody pic isn't working! Put in a link instead! :o

Zenga neo-Carthagian Empire in 170BC
 
Doh! I thought we had already played the last turns, yet it appears there are more to play. Well then, I will have to get to them tomorrow evening, though at this point, the next GOTM is about to begin, so my late turns may not matter much now...
 
Here is the final data table up to and including turn 120.

When you look at the table, note that I have added a second set of totals and subtotals where the Technology research costs have been equalized to the Regent Level tech costs. This is not 100% a fair comparison because in reality the Emperor players did have to deal with the effects of these increased costs in most cases.

 
I really feel I had it too easy in this game, besides going first for goverment change with Justus and building science/commerce centre around my capitol I can't find much explanation for surging to the top of the table in Regent(though very close to Takeo :) ).

The lack of competition actually just continued until the end when I achieved domination in 530AD, and getting a desent Regent score of 5335 points.
 
Well, I finally got round to finishing this game and completed Domination in 670AD (14 turns after Singularity) with just over 5k points.

As I mentioned earlier, I waited for the American and Persian cities to grow past size 1 before attacking and then took them quickly with swords and horses. Iroquois were next, immediately after, and I then triggered my GA allowing a mass build of horses and galleys. Leo's was also completed quicker with GA production in place. The Iroquois were left with one city on one of the smaller islands (they would eventually become the retirement homes for the other civs too).

In retrospect, the decision to go straight to Mil Trad was probably overkill and resulted in a slower victory. By the time I researched it I was able to upgrade ~40 horse, load the waiting dozen or so galleys and amble over to China. I then proceeded to blitz through China, Germany and Greece in turn, maybe losing 2 or 3 cavs in total. I think I saw 2 Chinese swords, 3 German swords and, of course, the Hoplites. None of the civs had better defenders than spears (Greece excepted) and I never saw any horse units apart from my own. The cavalry charge took around 20 turns (including ferrying reinforcements from home).

I agree with Singularity, the AI's seemed pretty backwards in this game and never put up a fight - maybe I'm just getting better! :)


With regards to the QSC scoring system, which cracker developed to measure civ power, I'm not too sure how this would relate in a game like this when Domination (or Conquest) is the goal. One of the main aspects of QSC scoring is Technology - the top 4 scores were also the top 4 tech scores. In a Domination game the main reason for gaining techs is to get better units, and for tactical purposes sometimes research is slowed or trades withheld in order to slow rivals (in my last turn I could have traded for Monotheism) or allow the building of less expensive units before upgrading. Maybe a better indicator in such a game is relative tech progress with the other civs.

I think the scoring does indicate a 'balanced' approach, but is not necessarily an indicator of a game taken to extremes in pursuit of an early military victory. It would be interesting to see how all the other games concluded to compare this. Hint, hint! ;)
 
I agree with Zenga : I was most of the time ahead in Techs during the game (compared to AIs but also co-players) but as soon as I started war I slowed back down big time on techs purposely because I wanted to invade the other continent with Knights and not encounter too many Pikes.

So the Tech and Infrastructure poitns are over estimated in that type of quick victory QSC because there is a purposely held back Tech progress at one point and a lot of infrstructure (cath, market, library, even acqueducts because of rivers) is not need as it is more of a race to the finish.

I still have to play to completion but I believe even though I did not have a good QSC score, I might be able to achieve Domiantion faster than most.
I ahve 18 horses which can upgrade to Knights ina few turns and then the next continent will be fall in jsut a few turns...
Will keep the thread updated on my victory date.
 
Originally posted by zenga
With regards to the QSC scoring system, which cracker developed to measure civ power, I'm not too sure how this would relate in a game like this when Domination (or Conquest) is the goal. One of the main aspects of QSC scoring is Technology - the top 4 scores were also the top 4 tech scores. In a Domination game the main reason for gaining techs is to get better units, and for tactical purposes sometimes research is slowed or trades withheld in order to slow rivals (in my last turn I could have traded for Monotheism) or allow the building of less expensive units before upgrading. Maybe a better indicator in such a game is relative tech progress with the other civs.

I think that one of the key points you have to realize with the QSC score is that it measures the POWER of you civilization compared to all other human played civilizations under similar circumstances.

This is not a measure of who is the biggest dog in your game or who is relatively the biggest dog compared to the AI civs.

In these early conquest and early domination type games you might cripple all your neighbors early and that would put you potentially closer to winning the game by domination or conquest while potentially leaving you looking like a weenie when compared externally.

The question in quick domination and quick conquest games is how powerful do you need to be to win the game???

Most players wrongly assume that the quick warmonger victories might require some sort of strong technology advantage when in fact the fastest victories seem to come from focusing on extreme minimums of research and improvements and the pouring on the coals to first cripple and then kill all your neighbors.

Charis provides us sort of an example of this process in QSC-C1 "Irritated Mao" where he basically mangles his whole half of the world and is clearly a dominant force but ends up with whole world big picture that is technologically behind all the other examples where the AI rivals can develope to contribute something to world peace.

The difference between quick domination and quick conquest is that the quickest dominations come form letting the AI's help you fill up the world with cities that can hold territory while the conquest is just a pure maim and slash game.
 
By the way I forgot to mention but I achieved Domination in 490AD.
 
Sorry for interrupting, but I wanted to make a few comments. (I just found this forum, I didn't notice it before).

I feel I should add some input, because it seems like this entire thread is just people posting what they did, and Cracker just giving the mathematical QSC results, but there isn't much discussion on what each player is doing right or wrong except for some tech progession talk.

I noticed that many players had very few workers. Sure, later on when you start waging wars you'll get some slaves, but having a few more workers early on will greatly increase your production capabilities. I usually like to build warrior (for MP), then worker (to improve terrain for that city), then start on infrastructure/military units. Or have a high food city just continually build workers (if you already have other settler factories in place). Or your 1-shield (high corrupt) cities just build workers every 10 turns.

I realize this was a quick domination game, so you would emphasize settlers more so than workers, but some of you need your core cities better developed. Many cities (having +2 food) could produce a settler every 20 turns (10 turns with granary/pyramids), but if it's only producing 1 shield/turn, then it can only produce a settler every 30 turns, because the city simply lacks the shield production. I saw many screenshots where there was roads everywhere, but there was maybe only 1 mine, or 1 irrigation in place. And a player mining a hill, before mining bonus grassland. In one case, there was irrigated grassland while still in despotism (it's ok to irrigate grassland if it's a bonus resource, or you need the irrigation to reach somewhere else, but otherwise it's a waste) With proper terrain improvements, a size 2 city can be more powerful than a size 4 or 5 city (production wise). With mining those bonus grassland you can get those temples/granaries/military units built so much faster and help speed up your power rush on the AI. There was some cities that were stuck at size 2, because there wasn't any workers around to irrigate the plains to allow the city to grow any larger.

I don't mean to sound harsh (and this doesn't apply to all of you, because some of the players used their few workers very wisely), but nobody is pointing this stuff out. Pointing out what could be done differently, or better is more effective for improving one's gameplay than just looking at a numbers chart.
 
@ Bamspeedy: this game became a bit different in that somewhere the structure got lost and players were posting turns and logs before any real discussion could be had. On the emperor thread that wasn't visible by default we had more discussions about tech choices, tech pace, worker purchasing etc.

If all follow the structure and play and post and participate in discussion these games can be very educational. I think Moa is a better example of what a Quick Game could be.

Hotrod
 
I just discovered that Cracker moved theese threads into this new subforum under GOTM. Great! :goodjob: I hope the planned QSC games will attract both novice and more experienced GOTM players.

@Bamspeedy

Thx for the input. I also where quite frustrated with the lack of discussion after each period of submission. Some where better than others at commenting on missed/taken opportunities, but generally it was a one-way informationstream from each players games.

I guess we could've benefitted from having sesoned players like you in the pool of players who could supplement the players with comments on their progression and maybe submit timelines of their own in a 'major league' QSC thread.

@hotrod

I think the obvious truth is that seasoned players, like you at the emperor QSC, has an easier time at discussing strategy. And the erratic posting of timelines before deadlines and in huge 90 round reports is something that obviously is unwanted in a concept like this.

I really hope people will give theese new games a try as it should bring a more informal sence of competition into the monthly regime of games that we've had this far. The opportunity to bring newer and average players to a higher level of gameplay will also benefit the GOTM community as a whole.
 
I feel that the very stringent deadlines put for reporting prevented the discusssion as we were most of the times just rushing to finish and post on time.
 
Maybe the timetable was too tight for some of the participants. But Cracker mentioned the ~14 days of playtime in the sign up thread, so no surprise there.

I think the QSCs should be an option for players to jump on if they find that they have time to spare between the GOTMs. It's not something that suits all of us every month - me included. But it's great for those months when the wait for the next GOTM seems like an eternity, and you have plenty of time to join up for a QSC game.
 
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