SGOTM 13 - One Short Straw

shyuhe said:

Also, I'm secretly a fan of corn (I love high base hammers) but have yet to make a save that shows its awesomeness. Corn also almost certainly gives up a spot on the western island unless there's more seafood since Paris needs to keep all three clams in that situation.

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Hmm... I just ran a Corn test and there are only 2 clams in the BFC. That makes settling on the Corn the option with the least amount of food since you've settled on a decent food tile.

Mitchum said:

If I could recreate LC's SIP with LC/granary in the capital already...

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Well, the last thing I'm trying to do is keep secrets... If anything, I need help resolving whether SIP is workable, especially because PH settling W around T65 and chopping the granary is looking mighty powerful. I think this is what I did in my posted save:

T0 build rax, work 3f
T10 fishing done (mng), build wb1
T11 pop2, work 3h+2f1h
T20 wb1 done, work 4f2c+3h, build wb2
T21 mng done (bw)
T31 wb2 done, build wb3, work 4f2c+4f2c
T34 pop3, work 4f2c+4f2c+3f(?)
T39 pop4, work 4f2c+4f2c+3f+3h, switch build to wkr1
T40 bw done (pottery)
T43 revolt to slavery
T44 2poprush wkr1, work 4f2c+4f2c
T45 wkr1 farms corn, build wb3
T46 wb3 done, goes exploring, build wb4
T51 pop3, work 4f2c+4f2c+(?2f1h?), in my test I netted the clams on this turn, but it's probably better to explore pottery done (sailing)
T52 corn farmed, work 4f2c+4f2c+5f
T53 wkr1 mvs to chop PH
T56 pop4, build granary, work 4f2c+4f2c+5f+(?)
T57 2poprush granary, work 4f2c+(4f2c or 5f ?) optimize for max food overflow
T58 granary done, build wb4 (I think the chop is done now)
T59 wb4 done
T63 pop4 (not sure when pop3 was)
T65 pop5 sailing done (wtg), corn roaded
T72 settler done (poprushed with OF to finish lh next turn)
T73 lh done, 3E settled

I'm clearly confused here. Never mind me...

Dhoomstriker said:

Base Hammer Production
So, I'm a bit lost how settling in-place differs from settling on the PH in terms of Hammer output.

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PH has +1f.

SIP: 2f1h+1f3h+4h = 3f8h
PH: 2f2h+1f3h+1f3h = 4f8h

In other words, after 80t, PH is ahead by 80h, everything else being equal. That's the key issue here: Can SIP overcome those 80h?

1. By researching faster, thus opening up builds sooner?
2. By growing to pop2 asap and working 3h+2f1h and building wbs? (PH can't work more than 3h at pop1, so wbs are a bad early option.)
3. By leveraging poprushing after an earlier BW?
4. By building an earlier granary?

LowtherCastle said:

Well, the last thing I'm trying to do is keep secrets... If anything, I need help resolving whether SIP is workable, especially because PH settling W around T65 and chopping the granary is looking mighty powerful. I think this is what I did in my posted save:

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Thanks for the details. Agreed PH is a stong opening, but if SIP is better for longer-term REX (as shown by your calculations), even if it does fall a bit behind up to T100 or so, do we care? The fact that it has better research is a big bonus. If we can get as much exploring done as in your save, it's really not too far behind in that department either although it only has one current scouting WB while PH has 2 by T80...

I ran a Corn test about an hour ago. It seems to be good at the start, but based on LC's calculations, it will likely fall behind going forward due to the lack of adequate food...

Can we close the door on Corn or are there still fans of it?

Another possibility here is to leverage the early wkr that PH gets. That wkr runs out of work around T50. We could simply plan to settle the western island and chop the forest into a granary and 1pop it. If we can get that really fast, even faster than T60, then I doubt SIP can ever catch up.

LowtherCastle said:

PH has +1f.

SIP: 2f1h+1f3h+4h = 3f8h
PH: 2f2h+1f3h+1f3h = 4f8h

In other words, after 80t, PH is ahead by 80h, everything else being equal. That's the key issue here: Can SIP overcome those 80h?

1. By researching faster, thus opening up builds sooner?
2. By growing to pop2 asap and working 3h+2f1h and building wbs? (PH can't work more than 3h at pop1, so wbs are a bad early option.)
3. By leveraging poprushing after an earlier BW?
4. By building an earlier granary?

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Hmmm... Niether save is really going to be working the mines every single turn. After the whip, the citizens will work food before hammers. So it isn't really behind by 80H after 80 turns, is it? Your calculations showed that both options were nearly identical in food-hammers at 5 health, 6 happy... EDIT: with SIP quite a bit ahead in terms of commerce.

shyuhe said:

My assumption for SIP is that it keeps the PH but loses the western grass hill to a second (or third) city over there. Is this a dangerous assumption to make?

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Just because a square gets shared does not mean that it is lost to a particular City. If we are building a Wonder, are using Bureaucracy for additional Hammers, or just decide that the capital needs the Grassland Hills Mine more than a secondary City does, than nothing stops the capital from using said production square.

Another thought is that we have been settling the island to the west because it has Fish, is close, uses that Clam, etc. But there's also an island to the south (in our test game and in the real game) that could equally use that Clam but would not borrow the GH Mine at all.

Here's Mitchum's screenshot of the real game again, for reference:



So, while I see no "danger" in assuming that another City might have the opportunity to share one of the capital's squares, I also don't see why we would discount this production square from the capital.

If it turns out that we think that another City needs that production more than the capital does, then that was our decision. Say, for example, this western City turns out to be a great Heroic Epic site, then base Hammers * 100%, as opposed to Bureaucracy's base Hammers * 50%. But then, we made the choice to give up the capital's production in favour of a better reason... lacking said better reason, I think that it is fair to assume that the capital will have access to this production if it wants it.

Also, I'm secretly a fan of corn (I love high base hammers) but have yet to make a save that shows its awesomeness. Corn also almost certainly gives up a spot on the western island unless there's more seafood since Paris needs to keep all three clams in that situation.

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By settling on the Corn, we almost certainly want to settle a City to the west or south-west in order to pick up the 3rd Clam.

So, I don't think that you have to "give up a spot" just because you settled on the Corn. What we give up by settling on the Corn in the long-term is the ability to run one additional Specialist (3 additional Food from working a Corn Resource minus the additional +1 Food from settle-on-Corn's City Centre of 3 Food = a difference of 2 Food = 1 Specialist by not settling on the Corn). If the short-term results can show a good payoff, then this loss of one additional Specialist (or whatever else you want to do with the Food) can be considered to be worth it...

LowtherCastle said:

PH has +1f.

SIP: 2f1h+1f3h+4h = 3f8h
PH: 2f2h+1f3h+1f3h = 4f8h

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Okay, that's a pretty neat way of looking at the math!

When I'm building a Wonder, though, I'm focusing almost purely on the raw base Hammers, not whipping-based production, because whipping Wonders makes for inefficient whipping.

That said, I suppose that it could be argued that whipping other build items so that they overflow many Hammers into a Wonder could give you a bit more production, and having a bit more Food could allow you to do so slightly more often, as long as we still have additional Happiness available to whip.

shyuhe said:

My assumption for SIP is that it keeps the PH but loses the western grass hill to a second (or third) city over there. Is this a dangerous assumption to make?

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My thinking is that for really tiny islands, all they need is a granary and a lh. After that they only need food for growth. Worst comes to worst, when they reach their happiness cap, they can just work coastal tiles, if need be and they'll generate a lot of commerce (since they have low maintenance, being so close to our capital). We wouldn't want too many such cities, but a couple would help us with our early research and if we decide to beeline Astro.

LowtherCastle said:

Another possibility here is to leverage the early wkr that PH gets. That wkr runs out of work around T50. We could simply plan to settle the western island and chop the forest into a granary and 1pop it. If we can get that really fast, even faster than T60, then I doubt SIP can ever catch up.

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This may be possible at the expense of exploration. Keep in mind that the fish will most likely not be there in the real game, so this city on the hill will have to borrow seafood from the capital until its borders pop to capture the southern clam (circa T110?)

Also, it appears that with a PH start, we get Sailing some time between T56 and T60. The soonest anyone settled on the island was T64 (mdy #173). Also, Pottery came a bit later, so the city would have to start on some other build (LH, WB, etc.) while waiting for Pottery to be learned.

EDIT: If you chop too soon, at 1 H/turn, it will take 45 turns to be able to one-pop the granary...
EDIT 2: scratch that. You'll have the 30 hammers from the chop...

Maybe a PH test game that focuses on pulling in Sailing and pulling in settling on that island to ~T60 is a worthy goal. If we KNOW we want to settle there, then early exploration for a city site can be slightly delayed for City #3...

Mitchum said:

Maybe a PH test game that focuses on pulling in Sailing and pulling in settling on that island to ~T60 is a worthy goal.

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Seems hard to optimize both prod and science. I am starting to like SIP as LC's data seems to indicate it is superior. Only concern is exploration.

Btw, I disagree with exploration priorities: I am not saying that we shouldn't explore for adequate dotmapping, but finding AIs early is really huge (for added commerce,ressources, strategic options). The last thing we want is finding out we aren't really isolated in 1 ad

edit: Welcome Ungy!

shyuhe said:

I'm clearly confused here. Never mind me...

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No worries. It's easy to get confused with so many saves floating around. Chalk it up to the fact that you've played more test games than the rest of us... plus you're old and senile

Okay, I think that I hit upon an interesting sequence of events for settling in-place.

In particular, I delayed settling City 2 a little bit but still settled it on our mainland (3E of the initial Settler's location... where else?). In this way, I was able to 3-pop-whip Settler 2, so that we made efficient use out of our Food. City 2 then could work improved squares (the Corn and later also the PH Mine).

Now what's neat is that City 2 actually contributed... I got to thinking... sure, a partial Granary or even a Lighthouse could be nice, but I'd rather have a Ligththouse in the capital. But, if I build a Granary, multiple Settlers, and a Galley in the capital, then it's hard to justify the happiness for building a Lighthouse there, too.

So, I did a flip: City 2 built Galley 1, while our capital instead made a Lighthouse. City 2 would then work at least 2, if not 3, Coastal squares (the Clam squares), making the Lighthouse a great investment. Meanwhile City 2 actually built a useful build item.

I also decided not to settle the 3rd Work Boat and "sent it exploring" as of Turn 70, 2250 BC, with the expectation that this Work Boat can "explore forever." Why? Well, City 2 is already working 2 improved squares without requiring a Work Boat, while the capital, working a Lighthouse-enhanced Clam, is technically working a "minorly improved square."

In other tests, I always assumed that my exploring Work Boat would have to return home... but this one can just go on sailing forever, which I believe is what we really want to do. I think that this point is actually one strong point in favour of in-place settling... since it means not having to keep a Work Boat around for City 2 (i.e. an off-island City for non-settle-in-place options) just to be able to have City 2 be working an improved square ASAP.


Galley 1 and Settler 3 are whippable as soon as Turn 79, 2025 BC. I decided to wait several turns and had them completing on Turn 84, 1900 BC, so that both Cities could regrow the next turn after whipping, as well as having a large amount of overflow.

In fact, if we wait even 1 more turn to whip, until Turn 85, 1875 BC, we could have Mysticism in time to catch both whip overflows, so each of those Cities could overflow their Hammers into Monuments... the capital could probably handle getting a "non-whipped Monument"... "hello +1 Happiness"... which equals yet another later 2-pop or 3-pop whip. City 2 could then have its borders expand quickly, if we feel that we want them to.


As usual, the 3 "main dates" saved games are attached, along with the final saved game where I put Settler 3 onto Galley 1 (but like I said, the date when we have Settler 3 and Galley 1 ready can happen several turns earlier, if we'd like).

OK, I tested some more and I'm pretty comfortable nixing corn at this point. My rationale is that it's too much of a gamble. Paris is excellent in the 4-6 2 pop whip cycle but it's really not that great of a city past that. If there are good city sites nearby, then corn is definitely worth pursuing but that's a bit of a gamble which doesn't seem necessary at this point.

edit: as an aside, I'll note that the corn site allows for the earliest exploring WB's because of the extra food converted into hammers.

Dhoomstriker said:

I think that this point is actually one strong point in favour of in-place settling... since it means not having to keep a Work Boat around for City 2 (i.e. an off-island City for non-settle-in-place options) just to be able to have City 2 be working an improved square ASAP.

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True only if we don't settle the green hill island after PH start. (as the green hill city can share clams with Paris just as well). Will check out your saves asap.

a bit of humor: I think we should play the first turn before the 25th of march so we actually have three months to play the others

I count right now:

shy: PH
Mitchum: undecided
Dhoom: undecided/abstain
bbp: abstain
Ras: ---
mdy: PH
LC: abstain
EP: PH(?)
ungy: PH(?)
Rusten: PH(?)
Lexad: MIA

I want to run a few SIP tests today before giving my firm answer as I'm currently on the fence.

Found free wireless here.
I'll abstain, as i can't really follow this on my iPhone, w/o the game.
As an outside observer, I see the discussion as being more about prioritizing opening tactics, than anout settling location, tbh. Think it's probably time to bust a move.
Edit: U guys have done a great job w longer term testing, but I guess I think we're only really deciding on the following:
1) PH or SIP
2) worker or WB
3) when the first explorer goes out
After we start exploring, priorities will likely change because they always do.

Agree with bbp's statement above. Of course, before we can decide on PH vs. SIP, we need to understand the longer-term advantages of each settling location.

I just ran a variant to LC's and Dhoom's SIP tests. I whipped the worker 3 turns sooner to get a head start on farms/mines. I also sacrificed WB#3 as a full-time explorer. I have almost as many exploring turns as LC and a faster/more developed Orleans (with respect to hammers/food) similar to Dhoomstriker.

SIP really is a decent early capital/settler pump with access to a lot of food. If we consider REX beyond city #3 to cities 4 through 6, I think SIP will give PH a run for the money and be quite a bit ahead in research.

Also, SIP is not that far behind in early exploration. If early exploration really is a major deal, Orleans could build an exploring WB, which could have been whipped T75 rather than building a granary...

Table updated here with Dhoom's and my latest save. Corn saves removed, but they are still in post 170 for reference.