Which Civ5 civilisation had the biggest impact on history?

I voted for France. For not defending properly their land in North America centuries ago, the USA eventually born...and the english language is, today the #1 language in the world. That's what i call a true impact.

You don't always have to be successful to be a part of history. The opposite can do the job. Facepalm to France!

sherbz said:

That America has received so many is equally laughable IMHO. They have been the dominant power for about a 100 years, which really is almost no time at all. They might make the list in the future, but as we are deciding on it now they dont deserve to be that high. Britain, Mongols, China, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Ottomans, France, all deserve to be higher IMO. The ottomans had an empire that lasted almost 1000 years and had a huge impact in the middle east and Asia (and Europe).

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It's not the number of years...it's the number of TURNS! Have you ever played civilization?!?

Infiltrator said:

America was just a means to achieve his potential - nothing more, nothing less -

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That's essentially what America culture is; a means to self actualization

I don't really think that this is the kind of question that can, or should, be answered, sorry.

Securion said:

Sonereal; I understand you dont like the "eurocentrism" idea, but from a historical perspective you cant defend your viewpoints. You say that europe only had a global influence for three thousand years out of six, but who then had a global influence the other three?
Thats right. None.
You also say that europe only dominated for two hundred years and I want to give you the same answer; Who dominated for the other 5800 years? On a global scale?
The answer is still; None.

Its the same answer you give the people who cant decide what culture that have been the most dominating culture throughout the history of mankind... Most people would say Chinese (from a per human being NUMBERS point of view) or Greece (from pure influence point of view), but the truth is that USA is the most dominant culture the world have ever seen. Its the ONLY truly global culture, and it is not going away. Ever. It can only transform now. Its too late to "pick something else", just like its too late to choose something other than Greece for europe as a baseline culture.

Its very much "who is first" in these regards.
Sadly I might say... I would have liked my countrys culture to be the dominant one, or one day to be...

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I agree with you on most things, but I find the USA part a little shaky. USA is an immigrant culture(the Native American culture isn't dominant). It's evolved from the European cultures, yes, but essentially it's an immigrant culture. It surely isn't dominating the world. China's culture isn't American. Russia's culture isn't American. The Netherlands isn't American. Most of Asia isn't American.

I agree with you on everything else

Most people think Americans are white people but that's not true. There are Asians, mainly Chinese and South East Asians, Africans, mainly Somalians, and even the forgotten natives. And yes, American culture is dominant, but what really makes up American culture? Most Americans are of German descendant. So can we say that America is German?

I don't think that being an "immigrant culture" detracts in any way from American culture being dominant, or is a "bad thing" at all.

Doesn't matter if the United States is made up of the descendants of immigrants. The US nevertheless developed a distinctive culture that is clearly not the same as any of the cultures of the countries the immigrants came from. To some extent it is a merger of all those cultures, but not entirely, and in any case even a culture that was a complete mishmash of the cultures of other countries would be a distinctive culture in its own right.

there is a lot of imbalance in the view of culture for those eurocentrics. When chinese people eats hamburgers, then they are westernized, but when european eats mien (spagethi/fetucine) then they are not orientalized. When asian people wore jeans, then they are westernized, but when european people wore silk tie, they are not orientalized. When an african listen to pop, they are westernized, but when european plays percusion, they are not afrikaanized. When indian people plays cricket, they are westernized, but when european do surfs, they are not polynesianized.
Be honest and see that most of euro and american culture have a decendant from many place that is called westernized.

Other thing to consider, do you really think that american culture do affect more people than chinese culture? Chinese culture do affect 2 bilion people in china alone. Don't bother counting the number of people at SEasia, other orient countries, the himalayas, and the great plains.

Syailendra said:

there is a lot of imbalance in the view of culture for those eurocentrics. When chinese people eats hamburgers, then they are westernized, but when european eats mien (spagethi/fetucine) then they are not orientalized. When asian people wore jeans, then they are westernized, but when european people wore silk tie, they are not orientalized. When an african listen to pop, they are westernized, but when european plays percusion, they are not afrikaanized. When indian people plays cricket, they are westernized, but when european do surfs, they are not polynesianized.
Be honest and see that most of euro and american culture have a decendant from many place that is called westernized.

Other thing to consider, do you really think that american culture do affect more people than chinese culture? Chinese culture do affect 2 bilion people in china alone. Don't bother counting the number of people at SEasia, other orient countries, the himalayas, and the great plains.

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Ever read "Orientalism"? Sounds as though that might be right up your street

Krajzen said:

FUN FACT

India and China had around 60 - 70% of global GDP ALWAYS before XVIII century.




As the creator of this thread I am very proud that I have started such valuable discussions

Also I really like hierarchy of civs, so far:

1) Rome
2) Greece
3) England
4) China (yay!)
5) Mongolia

6) Arabia/Germany

With one exception. One big exception. I think you all guys really underrate India.

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Yes, along with France I'd say India is the second most underrated civ in the poll - either deserves to be ahead of Mongolia.

The most underrated civ of all? Assyria, because it's not there.

Lol, three centuries out of 4000 years of history No I am not crazy revisionist denying the European huge influence, but I wouldn't overrate it.

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Not every century is equivalent - three centuries in which Europeans were free to use the entire planet as a playground to pursue their own internecine rivalries with the countries next door give them an importance well beyond the time period they covered. As I pointed out, the Maya lasted a millennium - however their influence never extended much beyond the Yucatan, beyond informing certain religious and architectural traditions as far as central Mexico.

otaman1 said:

Most people think Americans are white people but that's not true. There are Asians, mainly Chinese and South East Asians, Africans, mainly Somalians, and even the forgotten natives. And yes, American culture is dominant, but what really makes up American culture? Most Americans are of German descendant. So can we say that America is German?

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Culture and ethnicity are two different things: France is ethnically Germanic but culturally "Gallic". Likewise, whatever the assorted origins of its main demographics, America is culturally more or less British (less so than seems to be commonly thought, as I can testify as a Brit living here, but in the broadest sense its traditions owe more to Britain than even to other northern or western European states).

Syailendra said:

there is a lot of imbalance in the view of culture for those eurocentrics. When chinese people eats hamburgers, then they are westernized, but when european eats mien (spagethi/fetucine) then they are not orientalized. When asian people wore jeans, then they are westernized, but when european people wore silk tie, they are not orientalized. When an african listen to pop, they are westernized, but when european plays percusion, they are not afrikaanized. When indian people plays cricket, they are westernized, but when european do surfs, they are not polynesianized.
Be honest and see that most of euro and american culture have a decendant from many place that is called westernized.

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This is an entertaining description, although oversimplified to imagine that people consider isolated Western adoptions such as jeans as tantamount to "Westernisation".

Besides, everyone knows everything good comes from India:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ln5QgeCL1fs

Don't bother counting the number of people at SEasia, other orient countries, the himalayas, and the great plains.

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Well, no one would because those regions are nearly all Indian derivatives, not Chinese (save for Vietnam, Korea and Japan). But I don't think anyone's defining impact in terms of the number of individuals influenced, so it's a fairly meaningless metric.

seanflokstra7 said:

I agree with you on most things, but I find the USA part a little shaky. USA is an immigrant culture(the Native American culture isn't dominant). It's evolved from the European cultures, yes, but essentially it's an immigrant culture. It surely isn't dominating the world. China's culture isn't American. Russia's culture isn't American. The Netherlands isn't American. Most of Asia isn't American.

I agree with you on everything else

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...but the whole world eats McDonalds. That's impact son. Impact.

DBuckner21 said:

...but the whole world eats McDonalds. That's impact son. Impact.

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That's up for debate. Corporations nowadays has very little to do with nation and civilization.

otaman1 said:

Most people think Americans are white people but that's not true. There are Asians, mainly Chinese and South East Asians, Africans, mainly Somalians, and even the forgotten natives. And yes, American culture is dominant, but what really makes up American culture? Most Americans are of German descendant. So can we say that America is German?

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Yeeeeeaaaahhhh.......right. It must be fun to just make up "facts." Statements like these are why I'm going to just stick to Civ (the game) discussions in these forums from here on out. Americans aren't white people---LMFAO. Most of German descent? Try English, Italian, Polish, Dutch, Irish, etc.

Syailendra said:

Other thing to consider, do you really think that american culture do affect more people than chinese culture? Chinese culture do affect 2 bilion people in china alone. Don't bother counting the number of people at SEasia, other orient countries, the himalayas, and the great plains.

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This may sound a bit snobbish, but if you ever travel, you'll soon realize there's no argument to the contrary. American culture is everywhere. I can't think of any place I've ever been where I didn't see Coca-Cola; sold or empties lying around, and I've been in some dirt poor places. Everyone knows McDonalds and Beyoncé. I'm not kidding. You'd be amazed the places where you'll find kids who know Beyoncé's music. They'll have no idea what soy sauce is though.

For better or worse, American culture is the first truly globally exported culture, and the first to be 'aspirational' to basically the whole world.

But really, this poll is asking an unanswerable question, because no culture or civilization has ever existed in a vacuum.

sherbz said:

That America has received so many is equally laughable IMHO. They have been the dominant power for about a 100 years, which really is almost no time at all. They might make the list in the future, but as we are deciding on it now they dont deserve to be that high. Britain, Mongols, China, Rome, Greece, Egypt, Ottomans, France, all deserve to be higher IMO. The ottomans had an empire that lasted almost 1000 years and had a huge impact in the middle east and Asia (and Europe). Britain had the biggest empire (most populous). the Chinese were enormous and the most technologically advanced people of their era. Rome dominated all of Europe, which is a feat no one but them has managed. Greece is responsible for the basic principles in mathematics and philosophy. Mongols had a truly enormous empire for the age, they definitely fit into the most impressive category. Egypt was again a scientifically and highly advanced civilization and their monuments were by the standard of the times, out of this world. And the French, like Britain, also had a highly impressive world empire.

If your argument is that America gave us hamburgers and denim jeans and therefore deserves to be on the list then i think that pretty much sums up your argument . Im not saying they have not done some great stuff, its just that others have more impressive things. As a great British industrialist remarked "The british invent it, the Americans develop it, the Japanese exploit it, and the french resent it".

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The short answer regarding why America should in fact be on the list, even though it's only been dominant for a short time is this: It's the first Civ that has been able to spread its culture at warp speed due to TV, Cable, the internet, and the entertainment industry. The amount of influence it's put out in it's somewhat short history is gigantic and was not possible for other Civs to have done before the modern era of communication.

Secondly, Rome never "dominated all of Europe." A simple google search of 'Extent of Roman empire' will show this. They never touched Poland or Ukraine, or much of the northern countries like Sweden, Norway, Finland, etc. Also never made it to Ireland. Nor did they ever dominate Germania. Germania proved to be too much for them and they abandoned it.

Now I'll just keep my comments and questions directed at the game. I don't have time for history lessons.

IslandBlue said:

Yeeeeeaaaahhhh.......right. It must be fun to just make up "facts." Statements like these are why I'm going to just stick to Civ (the game) discussions in these forums from here on out. Americans aren't white people---LMFAO. Most of German descent? Try English, Italian, Polish, Dutch, Irish, etc.

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You could have done a google search and clicked on the second result to see that yes, most Americans are of german descent, or that only 62,4% of Americans self identify as White. So 4 in 10 Americans don't consider themselves white; I'd say that's pretty significant. Further, the demographics are quickly changing; the trend is that whites America will be a minority sometime in the next 30 years. But Yeeeeeaaaahhhh.......right..."facts."

notyourtypical said:

This may sound a bit snobbish, but if you ever travel, you'll soon realize there's no argument to the contrary. American culture is everywhere. I can't think of any place I've ever been where I didn't see Coca-Cola; sold or empties lying around, and I've been in some dirt poor places. Everyone knows McDonalds and Beyoncé. I'm not kidding. You'd be amazed the places where you'll find kids who know Beyoncé's music.

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While you're generally correct, in fairness that's not an altogether reliable metric. I've been in Dayak huts in Borneo with posters of Manchester United stars, in areas with no other remaining traces of English culture (and David Beckham certainly wasn't inherited from the colonial period).

For better or worse, American culture is the first truly globally exported culture, and the first to be 'aspirational' to basically the whole world.

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The second in both cases, really - the British did much the same with theirs in the imperial period; just as examples, in Georgetown in Peninsular Malaysia an old British gentleman's club is still frequented by Malaysians living an archaic English lifestyle. In Tanzania, with no remaining trace of a white ruling class, you can visit Dar es Salaam and the contrast between the wealthier areas - with English-only adverts and white models advertising products like paint to local people who can afford to buy things from adverts, and Kiswahili only on signs in poorer areas - speaks to surviving cultural divisions and the continuing aspirational use of the colonial language by an elite.

The Uruguayan president was quite correct when he recently noted that the modern business suit found throughout the world has its origins in English formal dress of the 19th Century; today it's arguably more ubiquitous than American jeans. It's a sign of how influential and pervasive these things are that, while we see a hamburger or jeans and think "American introduction", we see a business suit or a sandwich and just accept it as an integral part of the fabric of the modern world, rather than an English imposition.

Association football is a major sport in most of the world (and among elites, golf is); no American sport has caught on internationally even to the same degree as cricket or rugby.

Britain's flag might well be the most widely-copied and disseminated in the world, possibly even more than the American one; I've seen people with Union flag t-shirts and apparel everywhere from the island itself to the United States to Ecuador. America itself hasn't been immune - English and Irish pubs (not to mention Union flags) are everywhere; not as ubiquitous as burger chains to be sure, but those too have been exported across the world. If you go to Phnom Penh's tourist district, it's not fries you ask for, it's chips (there's even a shop selling marmite baguettes, or used to be, and an old-style English tea shop down by the Russian Market. It's pink); ask for one of Cambodia's national dishes in Westernised form in the capital and it's not 'loc lac americain' you'll be asking for (as a recipe I have describes it), but 'loc lac anglais'.

You could have done a google search and clicked on the second result to see that yes, most Americans are of german descent, or that only 62,4% of Americans self identify as White. So 4 in 10 Americans don't consider themselves white; I'd say that's pretty significant.

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You have to take that figure with a pinch of salt, though, because the way Americans define 'white' is not the way the rest of the world does. Racial self-identity is a huge thing in the US, since it's used to define cultural identity; while Europeans use skin colour as a descriptive, and to define a trait one is born with rather than one someone chooses to adopt, there are physically wholly white people in America who identify as black via a grandparent, or as "Hispanic" (a US-favoured term really only descriptive of mestizo peoples such as the majority of Mexicans, but which is applied indiscriminately to anyone from Spanish-speaking Latin America or with ancestry in that region, including those of 100% white European descent). Ethnically wholly white groups like Semitic peoples might not identify in America as white, if they consider (e.g.) "white" and "Jewish" to be mutually exclusive cultural identities (similarly, most Americans don't consider Arabs white, despite their also being a Semitic people). There was a recent National Geographic magazine photo showcase on the way Americans self-identify - some of the identities they choose are bizarre when contrasted with the associated images.

Krajzen said:

FUN FACT

India and China had around 60 - 70% of global GDP ALWAYS before XVIII century.

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Not really a fact. There was no one measuring GDP before 1934 and those estimates are inaccurate anyway. Always? Really? What about when the only civilizations were in Mesopotamia? It's improbable that India and China had 60-70% of the worlds GDP when there wasn't even civilization there yet.

What you really mean is that from the fall of the Roman Empire until the Industrial revolution, China and India had appx. 60-70% of the worlds GDP*

*We don't really have accurate information of how strong the economies of western hemisphere were before the European's invaded the Americas, but they may be larger than we realize considering the fortunes of gold that people like Columbus stole from them.

DBuckner21 said:

...but the whole world eats McDonalds. That's impact son. Impact.

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The whole world eats croissants (except the Americas - they just eat crescent-shaped bread they call croissants. But at least they have the general concept even if they can't get the recipe right). Not to mention baguettes. Where's France on that list, again? Another near-universal is the wide range of foods now so common as lunches across the developed world placed between two pieces of buttered bread - the ones named after the Earl of Sandwich.

Go to any restaurant almost anywhere on the planet outside China or Indochina, and if you ask for tea the default will be some variety of English black tea (very often Lipton tea bags or some other English company), with the questions only asked of English tea: milk and sugar (the use of both in tea pioneered by the English)?

Coffee in the form now drunk worldwide is a mainland European - especially Dutch - development of the Arabic drink.

Any of these has had more dissemination and cultural impact than the hamburger, let alone than McDonalds specifically (in parts of Thailand I've visited you're more likely to find a KFC, or indeed a Tesco - an English supermarket chain - than a McDonalds).