End of Empires - N3S III

After skimming through the stats, I noticed Farou has a whopping 500 ships. I thought the Trilui had the largest navy. Is this an error in the stats or the rankings?
 
Hey NK just hoping that u get time to finish the update =) very interested in what is going to happen =P!
 
North King, do you still have the population map from the begining of this NES? Could you please post it again? I want to see what areas had the biggest populations in the begining.
 
I don't have the CZ map.

The update's being worked on, please do not bother me about it.
 
Bumped for (own and otherwise) future use and out of principle.

EDIT: Okay, a question to Ninja Dude, or possibly Enki. Just how does that Uggor family system work at this point (i.e. in Krato; the Moti are likely to be a) different and b) generally more backwards)? It seems well-suited for semi-nomadic pastoralism (which would likely be the initial stage of Uggor socio-economic history), but since then the Krato seem to have adapted a more sedentary and civilised lifestyle, inasmuch as that is possible in a savannah. I suppose you could say that was reflected in the rise of larger villages and greater socio-economic specialisation of various tribes (as seen in Ninja Dude's first story). Still, while family (in this case probably more similar to a clan than anything else) based organisation sort of works for an economy based on a combination of animal herding and agriculture (and I suppose that those families that had somehow lost too many of their lands and herds would have to take up warfare and/or trade to survive), it sort of falls apart when you have large cities and well-developed commerce. I mean, formal family ties would be impossible to destroy, but I would think that most of the people in cities would have to live in much smaller family units, economically if not politically independent from their rural families. One would also think that after a while, families that have grown large enough would begin to split, with their splinters setting out to claim new lands... Anyway, my main point is that by now one would expect even the most conservative and clan-based culture to start changing, at least in the more economically advanced areas. Just a point for consideration, ofcourse; I would very much like to know what is considered canon for the Krato, since it looks like we will be neighbours after all.

On a related note, what are the traditional Uggor property rights? I sort of assumed that there is family property which is distributed between the smaller family units and/or individuals within the family, but upon their death goes back to the family and is redistributed again.

Also, about the chiefs. I understand the chiefs are generally heads of their families, and that, under the Council of Chiefs system, some of them (presumably heads of the largest and strongest families, and/or the traditional leaders) receive various special functions. How are those distributed? Are they hereditary? Or are those "magistrates" elected from amongst their own number by the other chiefs upon the death of their predecessors? Is it a combination thereof (i.e. if a line of cropchiefs somehow dies out or a hereditary cropchief commits some grave crime and is removed by the council, does the council elect a new one from another line, or does it pass to some other member of the family or something like that)?

EDIT EDIT: While I'm at it, is there writing in Krato? And Moti? If we have it, then for how long did we have it? Do the Uggor have their own alphabet, or did they borrow it from one of the other populations?
 
Bumped for (own and otherwise) future use and out of principle.

EDIT: Okay, a question to Ninja Dude, or possibly Enki. Just how does that Uggor family system work at this point (i.e. in Krato; the Moti are likely to be a) different and b) generally more backwards)? It seems well-suited for semi-nomadic pastoralism (which would likely be the initial stage of Uggor socio-economic history), but since then the Krato seem to have adapted a more sedentary and civilised lifestyle, inasmuch as that is possible in a savannah. I suppose you could say that was reflected in the rise of larger villages and greater socio-economic specialisation of various tribes (as seen in Ninja Dude's first story). Still, while family (in this case probably more similar to a clan than anything else) based organisation sort of works for an economy based on a combination of animal herding and agriculture (and I suppose that those families that had somehow lost too many of their lands and herds would have to take up warfare and/or trade to survive), it sort of falls apart when you have large cities and well-developed commerce. I mean, formal family ties would be impossible to destroy, but I would think that most of the people in cities would have to live in much smaller family units, economically if not politically independent from their rural families. One would also think that after a while, families that have grown large enough would begin to split, with their splinters setting out to claim new lands... Anyway, my main point is that by now one would expect even the most conservative and clan-based culture to start changing, at least in the more economically advanced areas. Just a point for consideration, ofcourse; I would very much like to know what is considered canon for the Krato, since it looks like we will be neighbours after all.

On a related note, what are the traditional Uggor property rights? I sort of assumed that there is family property which is distributed between the smaller family units and/or individuals within the family, but upon their death goes back to the family and is redistributed again.

Also, about the chiefs. I understand the chiefs are generally heads of their families, and that, under the Council of Chiefs system, some of them (presumably heads of the largest and strongest families, and/or the traditional leaders) receive various special functions. How are those distributed? Are they hereditary? Or are those "magistrates" elected from amongst their own number by the other chiefs upon the death of their predecessors? Is it a combination thereof (i.e. if a line of cropchiefs somehow dies out or a hereditary cropchief commits some grave crime and is removed by the council, does the council elect a new one from another line, or does it pass to some other member of the family or something like that)?

EDIT EDIT: While I'm at it, is there writing in Krato? And Moti? If we have it, then for how long did we have it? Do the Uggor have their own alphabet, or did they borrow it from one of the other populations?


The familes are starting to turn more into clans as more power is gained by fewer families. In the end, smaller families are merging into the more powerful ones. With the smaller families/clans being absorbed or slowly dieing off, there will be fewer chiefs, thus making each of them have more power. However, on the frontiers of Kratoan territory, smaller families often sprout up hoping to gain enough power to gain a lasting position in power.

Most of the property of someone who has died will go to his immediate relatives. Then some will go to cousins, nephews, uncles, and aunts. And finally (if the person was extremely wealthy) some of the property is given to his distant relatives. A death kind of causes a ripple effect in a clan.

I've kind of been thinking about how the Chiefs are chosen and I've finally some up with what I think is a good system:

Early on in Uggor culture, the selection of a Chief was special to the family they belonged to. Families centering around fighting often had competitions of strength to decide who was fit to lead the family. Other families saw who could grow the best crops, or work the hardest. which ever way they did it, it was almost always related to the nature of the family. But now as things get more complicated, powerful warriors or skilled farmers aren't making good leaders. Now many clans/families have embraced the idea of having a vote in which the wisest of their family/clan chose the next Chief after the old one has died. However, in more isolated parts of the country like the colonies smaller families continue to have contests to see who shall lead their family.

If I remember correctly, the Uggor countries do have an alphabet. I'm not exactly sure where they got it from, but I'm assuming it was learned from the Liealb (Thearak). After that, I'm guessing some changes were gradually made to the language, but it's probably very similar.

On a side note, I'm not that well educated in the history of Moti. They've been rather quiet in pretty much every update, keeping to themselves. they do control the primary source of tin in the south which gives them a good source of income. That, and they are the only Uggor country to have conquered another Uggor country (Moti took over Lumada). But even that wasn't mentioned in any update. North King had to explain what happened after he had posted the update.
 
Or the Duroc scripts seeing as we were closer and trading partners from the word go and helped the Krato advance at a more rapid rate than they might have otherwise. I would say that the Moti culture is different but not less advance as it had contact over the mountains with the more advanced nations on the other side. Out of interest Das have you joined as the Moti because if you have I may amend my orders. In a good way.
 
The familes are starting to turn more into clans as more power is gained by fewer families.

What I meant was that the families are now larger than even the very large families of, say, 6th century Salic Franks (a family of 50 being considered small according to one of your earlier stories - by now some families might be over one thousand, no meme reference intended), so it would have to evolve into a more complex organisation. What you said fits into this as well, ofcourse.

Most of the property of someone who has died will go to his immediate relatives. Then some will go to cousins, nephews, uncles, and aunts. And finally (if the person was extremely wealthy) some of the property is given to his distant relatives. A death kind of causes a ripple effect in a clan.

So is it within the family/clan, or might it also go to relatives from other families (there would probably be at least some distant relatives unless all families are endogamic - by now endogamy would probably be more viable within the larger families, but it would've been more or less impossible a few centuries ago, I think)?

Early on in Uggor culture, the selection of a Chief was special to the family they belonged to. Families centering around fighting often had competitions of strength to decide who was fit to lead the family. Other families saw who could grow the best crops, or work the hardest. which ever way they did it, it was almost always related to the nature of the family. But now as things get more complicated, powerful warriors or skilled farmers aren't making good leaders. Now many clans/families have embraced the idea of having a vote in which the wisest of their family/clan chose the next Chief after the old one has died. However, in more isolated parts of the country like the colonies smaller families continue to have contests to see who shall lead their family.

Since asking the question I have re-read the story about the chiefs. It seems that the positions of the Warchief and the Cropchief on the Council indefinitely belong to the chiefs of certain families (presumably famed for their fighting skills and agricultural prowess respectively). It also seems to be implied that positions in those families are becoming hereditary (or at least political dynasties are forming, as seen with Bonto I and Bonto II), which makes historical sense, what with the gradual movement towards consolidation of privilege and emergence of kingship, but might or might not go against your idea of this.

On a side note, I'm not that well educated in the history of Moti. They've been rather quiet in pretty much every update, keeping to themselves. they do control the primary source of tin in the south which gives them a good source of income. That, and they are the only Uggor country to have conquered another Uggor country (Moti took over Lumada). But even that wasn't mentioned in any update. North King had to explain what happened after he had posted the update.

I've noticed as much. Well, we didn't have writing then, so a lot of things about early Moti history survived in oral tradition only, but we are becoming a more civilised and proactive people now, so things might change and someone might eventually try and write a history of our origins. We'll see.

Or the Duroc scripts

That occurred to me as a likely possibility, what with Krato being at least one third Duroc.

Anyway, yes, I will be joining as Moti.
 
Anyway, yes, I will be joining as Moti.

Good to finally have someone nearby. All of the others were crushed or absorbed for some reason. :mischief:

Also, perhaps North King can clear up some of the details reguarding the origin of the alphabet in Uggor-controled countries. I highly doubt that the Uggor developed one themselves, but I don't know which alphabet we adopted. Duroc intermingled with Uggor people a lot, which would make it highly plausible for them to exchange vast amounts of knowledge. However, Thearak was much more advanced than Krato or Asandar/Republic of Duroc which makes it likely that their alphabet just slowly spread through both cultures.
 
Coughs, I would say that we were equal but they were bigger. NK can clear this all up. Oh and Ninja you maybe having more than one neighbour this update.;)
 
Writing in the south was probably not derived independently, aside from a very early hieroglyph-esque system in the most Ancient times of Thearak that archaeologists will eventually puzzle over. Alphabet was imported from the north, and adapted, working its way westwards. Not that anyone in the nations themselves care. That's ancient history.
 
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