Siam vs Greece: Battle of the Diplomatic Civilizations.

Siam vs Greece

  • Total voters
    113
Doktor Vic Tim said:
Who doesn't love mass gifting great persons prior to UN vote? It's 5 turns prior to it, or is it 4?

Though risky, it can be fun to use the Swedish UA to steal the host seat of the World Congress, but it may be a waste of GPs. And if anyone wises up, just dance magic dance them with your Caroleans. I suppose it's VERY understandable Sweden doesn't get +% GP generation for being allied with city states, that'd escalate quickly.
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This is missing Sweden with the nobel prize UA. Establishing DoFs and getting Sweden and all other friends of Sweden a 10% boost in great people makes it easier to get GPs and gift them to CSs for 90 ally points is instance alliance plus 30 points more to go, but
here is Greece with Hellenic League and Siam with Father Governs Children.
 
reddishrecue said:
This is missing Sweden with the nobel prize UA. Establishing DoFs and getting Sweden and all other friends of Sweden a 10% boost in great people makes it easier to get GPs and gift them to CSs for 90 ally points is instance alliance plus 30 points more to go, but
here is is Greece with Hellenic League and Siam with Father Governs Children though.
Click to expand...

Do keep in mind that it can be quite easy to counter Sweden's strategy. 1. Make sure they don't get Glory of God. 2. Hit them hard in the early game. 3. Rush in with tanks and murder all the GPs.

Though, this is coming from a still noobish person on civ. CiV was my first game and I haven't had it for a year even.

On the subject of Greece and Siam, I'd say that they are pretty equal. Greece has the slow decay, and Siam has the stronger unit.
 
Doktor Vic Tim said:
Do keep in mind that it can be quite easy to counter Sweden's strategy. 1. Make sure they don't get Glory of God. 2. Hit them hard in the early game. 3. Rush in with tanks and murder all the GPs.
Click to expand...

And an AI is capable of doing exactly none of these, making Sweden pretty unassailable in the diplo game in that regard. But I think the poll makes sense as it is - it's not asking "which is the game's best diplo civ", but "which is best of Siam and Greece" - if it was asking the former it wouldn't lead to a very interesting thread precisely because Sweden is the obvious victor.
 
PhilBowles said:
And an AI is capable of doing exactly none of these, making Sweden pretty unassailable in the diplo game in that regard. But I think the poll makes sense as it is - it's not asking "which is the game's best diplo civ", but "which is best of Siam and Greece" - if it was asking the former it wouldn't lead to a very interesting thread precisely because Sweden is the obvious victor.
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Ah, well, I was more looking at multiplayer aspects, but you have a point. And yes, I'm pretty sure Sweden doe snot fare well against other human players...:(
 
UA Greece gets more Siam gets it front loaded; Advantage Siam
UU Marginal Units just slightly better than their counterparts, NE is more versatile but Greece gets 2 UU; Advantage Greece
UB; Probably the 4th best UB in the game with the same amount of culture as an Ampitheatre, Opera House, and Museum

Siam wins hands down
 
Doctor Doom said:
yeah rammy is kind of a jerk :lol:

ally a city state he wanted? DENOUNCED
get a wonder he wanted? DENOUNCED
settle 20 tiles away from his city? DENOUNCED
fighting back when someone DOW's you? You must be a war monger! DENOUNCED
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Huh? At least has a vague reason for denouncements (no matter how bad!).

I've met Alexander in the past; and it goes, turn 8 meet him, no idea where each other capitals are or anything..... next turn...
(Hatred) You exist! DENOUNCED

:lol:
 
Resipsa said:
UA Greece gets more Siam gets it front loaded; Advantage Siam
UU Marginal Units just slightly better than their counterparts, NE is more versatile but Greece gets 2 UU; Advantage Greece
Click to expand...

What those counterparts are makes a lot of difference, though. Why is England a better military civ than Shoshone? Because the replacements England gets are for the strongest single units of their respective eras - crossbow and frigate - while no one much cares about Cavalry replacements and scouts aren't combat-focused.

Companion Cavalry is a good UU that replaces a unit no one uses; the Hoplite is a poor UU version of a unit that only exists to be upgraded into pikes. Naruesan's Elephant replaces the Knight, about the only cavalry unit anybody's ever likely to build - it's also got the highest combat strength of any medieval land unit, which makes it strong in isolation without considering what it's promoted from.

Advantage Siam: only one UU, but it's one that gets used, where neither of Greece's do.
 
Also, the Naresuan's Elephant doesn't require horses, so it's also spammable, despite its higher hammer cost. And it has 50% bonus vs horse units.

Imagine if Alex and Ramky were doomed to be roommates...
 
BigChiefLizzy said:
Huh? At least has a vague reason for denouncements (no matter how bad!).

I've met Alexander in the past; and it goes, turn 8 meet him, no idea where each other capitals are or anything..... next turn...
(Hatred) You exist! DENOUNCED

:lol:
Click to expand...

:lol: I have no idea what it is but Alexander is the most aggressive Ai I've ever met!
 
Doctor Doom said:
:lol: I have no idea what it is but Alexander is the most aggressive Ai I've ever met!
Click to expand...

Phalanx mixed with composites are neat, I've used these before. I haven't been able to use the Siam uu nor the swedish uu. So many civs already.
 
Greece opens very strong. If you manage to remove a barbarian camp on a quest and free a settler, that's ally with that city state for a very long time. The downside is that this is luck based which CS give the quests. If it's two mercantile CS that also both give Jewelery, then your benefit is rather small.

Once you're in the mid game and you start making enough money to just pick the CS you want as allies, Siam pulls ahead. I'm not following the "twice the city states" logic here, really. There isn't an infinite number of city states on the map, and you also don't really need them all as allies throughout the entire game.

Also, as pointed out, decay isn't really an issue anymore in the late game. If your influence actually decays past that point, you just throw another 1k gold at the CS.
 
Quineloe said:
Also, as pointed out, decay isn't really an issue anymore in the late game. If your influence actually decays past that point, you just throw another 1k gold at the CS.
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That is the point. Thousands of gold you don't have to pay in this manner can be used for building and unit purchases, while still maintaining sky-high CS influence which never really drops.
 
Again, that happens really rarely, as due to Siams UA, you should win any "longs for faith" and "longs for culture" competition, which, coupled with GP generation, will keep your CS allies allies without any of your doing.
 
Quineloe said:
Again, that happens really rarely, as due to Siams UA, you should win any "longs for faith" and "longs for culture" competition, which, coupled with GP generation, will keep your CS allies allies without any of your doing.
Click to expand...

Exactly. There is no civ in the game that's better at generating culture than Siam, since with the changes to other cultural buildings the Wat produces more base culture than nearly any other non-Wonder, and no other civ has a culture boost that can compare with 50% extra from even one cultural CS (except possibly Persia's extended golden age). Faith is a bit more situational, since there are more dedicated faith civs, but unless one of those civs is in the game Siam should win those as well.
 
Does SIAM provide any bonuses with a Militaristic CS? Or it only for Food and Culture?
 
El Caballerion said:
Does SIAM provide any bonuses with a Militaristic CS? Or it only for Food and Culture?
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Supposedly militaristic CSes provide units twice as often, but it's not specified in the UA text (Greece has a 'hidden' bonus as well - it never gets trespassing penalties, even when not friendly with a CS. I've seen some people describe this as the best part of the Greek UA). Though Siam is overall my favourite civ, so I've got a lot of play experience with it, I'm not sure how to check how the rate of unit generation compares with that from other civs.

As mentioned, since G&K the UA also affects faith. As far as I'm aware there is no bonus from mercantile CSes, so if those are what you have access to you gain nothing (in fact my first Siam game post-BNW had me on an island with two mercantile CSes and nothing else...)
 
Quineloe said:
Greece opens very strong. If you manage to remove a barbarian camp on a quest and free a settler, that's ally with that city state for a very long time. The downside is that this is luck based which CS give the quests. If it's two mercantile CS that also both give Jewelery, then your benefit is rather small.

Once you're in the mid game and you start making enough money to just pick the CS you want as allies, Siam pulls ahead. I'm not following the "twice the city states" logic here, really. There isn't an infinite number of city states on the map, and you also don't really need them all as allies throughout the entire game.

Also, as pointed out, decay isn't really an issue anymore in the late game. If your influence actually decays past that point, you just throw another 1k gold at the CS.
Click to expand...

I can't just pick any CS I want in mid-game... not on immortal anyway. Sometimes I'm doing well and have a lot and sometimes I'm struggling to keep one ally. I like Siam a lot but I know that there would be games when I got almost nothing out of the UA for a long time.

Greece's UA is better in practice than it probably can be made to look on paper. You really get to just stop even thinking about CS's as Greece - they all eventually belong to you no matter what you do. Frees up money and attention for other stuff, and if you don't have any need for that money in your games well then I will certainly take it pls.
 
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