New Leaders (art, personalities, diplomacy texts)

Fair enough.

Okay, so it looks like we are going with Seafaring and Nationalistic. Should we stop while we're ahead or try for a third one? And if we do go for a third one, I want to get some good arguments for them here. So, if you've given a suggestion and you think it has been shot down, think again and sell it to me!

Okay here's a quick list of things off the top of my head that could be included in these two traits that are doable via xml and/or Python (by me at least :p).

SEAFARING
- Naval movement bonus
- Faster production of Naval Units
- Extra food/production/commerce from trade routes
- Extra trade routes
- Happiness from maritime buildings
- Increased yield from water tiles
- Start with Sailing technology
- Free Merchant slot
- Free promotion for Naval Units

Note that most maritime buildings already have faster production bonuses from standard traits: Lighthouse (Organized), Harbour (Expansive) and Drydock (Aggressive). Only one that isn't used is the Custom House.


NATIONALISTIC
- Espionage bonus per city
- Happiness from Espionage/National buildings
- Reduced cost of National Wonders
- We Love the King Day (i do not know how to access this in Python)

Castle and Walls are already made faster by Protective, Courthouse by Organized. Other candidate buildings could be Jail, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, and Monument (happiness bonus already given by Charismatic).

Also, Industrious already gives a production speed bonus to both World and National wonders. Trivial to separate them out though.


LIST OF UNUSED CONCEPTS
- Increased Golden Age length
- Reduced war weariness
- Stronger Vassals
- Increase gold from Pillaging
- Great Generals within cultural borders
- Cheaper unit upgrades
- Free specialist slots
- Free specialists (too overpowered imo)

Could build the third trait from some of these maybe. I haven't listed anything directly related to science or food.

Note also that promotions can be given by combat type (archery, siege, melee, etc) but movement and production bonuses are done by domain (land, sea, etc). There are ways around this but they are a bit messy.


Finally if you do want to make Protective stronger without changing it completely, change the production speed bonus on Walls and Castle to +1 happiness instead. Easily done in xml only and makes Protective much less situational.
 
Okay here's a quick list of things off the top of my head that could be included in these two traits that are doable via xml and/or Python (by me at least :p).

SEAFARING
- Naval movement bonus
- Faster production of Naval Units
- Extra food/production/commerce from trade routes
- Extra trade routes
- Happiness from maritime buildings
- Increased yield from water tiles
- Start with Sailing technology
- Free Merchant slot
- Free promotion for Naval Units

Note that most maritime buildings already have faster production bonuses from standard traits: Lighthouse (Organized), Harbour (Expansive) and Drydock (Aggressive). Only one that isn't used is the Custom House.


NATIONALISTIC
- Espionage bonus per city
- Happiness from Espionage/National buildings
- Reduced cost of National Wonders
- We Love the King Day (i do not know how to access this in Python)

Castle and Walls are already made faster by Protective, Courthouse by Organized. Other candidate buildings could be Jail, Intelligence Agency, Security Bureau, and Monument (happiness bonus already given by Charismatic).

Also, Industrious already gives a production speed bonus to both World and National wonders. Trivial to separate them out though.


LIST OF UNUSED CONCEPTS
- Increased Golden Age length
- Reduced war weariness
- Stronger Vassals
- Increase gold from Pillaging
- Great Generals within cultural borders
- Cheaper unit upgrades
- Free specialist slots
- Free specialists (too overpowered imo)

Could build the third trait from some of these maybe. I haven't listed anything directly related to science or food.

Note also that promotions can be given by combat type (archery, siege, melee, etc) but movement and production bonuses are done by domain (land, sea, etc). There are ways around this but they are a bit messy.


Finally if you do want to make Protective stronger without changing it completely, change the production speed bonus on Walls and Castle to +1 happiness instead. Easily done in xml only and makes Protective much less situational.

SEAFARING:
- +1 speed to naval units
- Faster production of naval units
- Faster production of scouts/explorers
- All naval units start with Drill 1

NATIONALISTIC:
- 25% decreased cost of national wonders
- +2 espionage per city
- Cheaper Security Bureau
- +2 happiness per national wonder

I think that'd make both traits relatively high tier. Fairly situational (both push you towards a certain style of gameplay), but both useful.

Also, I strongly support the idea of adding "+1 happiness from walls" to Protective. Keep the discount on them, but add the +1 happiness on top.

And for a third trait using the unused bits up there:

PROGRESSIVE
-Increased golden age length
-1 free specialist slot per city

And to assist with this, here are leaders that could use these traits.
SEAFARING: Victoria, both Portugese leaders, both Dutch leaders, both Vikins
NATIONALISTIC: Mao, Stalin, Hitler, Mussolini, Mahmoud Ahmadenijad, Peron maybe.
PROGRESSIVE: Meiji, Elizabeth, Mongkut, Lincoln maybe


Also, a thought has hit while thinking up the nationalistic trait. Think we could get Iraq with Saddam somewhere down the line? He'd be the perfect Cha/Nat leader.
 
NATIONALISTIC:
- 25% decreased cost of national wonders
- +2 espionage per city
- Cheaper Security Bureau
- +2 happiness per national wonder

I think that'd make both traits relatively high tier. Fairly situational (both push you towards a certain style of gameplay), but both useful.

Happiness is a very powerful stat, especially early game as it is the primary limit on growth. +2 happiness per national wonder would be insanely overpowered, just building the Moai statues alone would give a benefit equal to Charismatic. Happiness bonuses are best applied to single buildings.

To fit the theme of the trait I'd choose the Courthouse, to represent the populace being happy at seeing justice being done and/or the sentencing of dissidents. Also I think 4 elements is a bit much for a single trait so I'd drop the cheaper Security Bureau.

Incidently such a trait would be doable with XML alone.


PROGRESSIVE
-Increased golden age length
-1 free specialist slot per city

Be aware that you have to choose a specific specialist type when doing this. Both these elements would require python. The latter would also require creating a fake building and several changes to BUG to hide it in the Civilopedia (solved) and City screen (working on it).
 
Happiness is a very powerful stat, especially early game as it is the primary limit on growth. +2 happiness per national wonder would be insanely overpowered, just building the Moai statues alone would give a benefit equal to Charismatic. Happiness bonuses are best applied to single buildings.

To fit the theme of the trait I'd choose the Courthouse, to represent the populace being happy at seeing justice being done and/or the sentencing of dissidents. Also I think 4 elements is a bit much for a single trait so I'd drop the cheaper Security Bureau.

Incidently such a trait would be doable with XML alone.




Be aware that you have to choose a specific specialist type when doing this. Both these elements would require python. The latter would also require creating a fake building and several changes to BUG to hide it in the Civilopedia (solved) and City screen (working on it).

Ah, thought a free specialist slot was possible.
In this case, it'd be best to go with a free scientist slot.

Also, +1 happiness from courthouses -does- sound like a good idea, though I do want to keep the cheaper security bureau.
 
I like the ideas, but I have to agree that there are two many benefits there. Four is pretty high. Three is the highest I'll go on any of them. And we shouldn't give seafaring too many unit bonuses.

I think Seafaring should be:
  • Starts game with Sailing (we might have to give every civ that has a searfaring leader fishing as a starting tech though)
  • +1 Line of Sight for all naval units
  • Faster production speed of Lighthouse, Harbor, Drydock
  • -50% Cost to Explorers

That is kind of more than I wanted to do for it, although since it is only naval I think we can get away with these bneefits here. First I took away the extra movement of ships in exchange for line of sight. +1 movement may be better though. I also removed the scout from the production modifier, I think Explorer is better as a scout is really more of a unit for land. I think starting the game with Sailing is a good bonus, the tech in and of itself may not be so great, but it does allow for early naval exploration and gives a slight technological edge (because you effectively start with three techs rather than two).

I have to get ready for work, so I can't get into the other trait.
 
NATIONALISTIC:
- 25% decreased cost of national wonders
- +2 espionage per city
- Cheaper Security Bureau
- +2 happiness per national wonder

Happiness is a very powerful stat, especially early game as it is the primary limit on growth. +2 happiness per national wonder would be insanely overpowered, just building the Moai statues alone would give a benefit equal to Charismatic. Happiness bonuses are best applied to single buildings.

To fit the theme of the trait I'd choose the Courthouse, to represent the populace being happy at seeing justice being done and/or the sentencing of dissidents. Also I think 4 elements is a bit much for a single trait so I'd drop the cheaper Security Bureau.

Incidently such a trait would be doable with XML alone.

I think nationalistic trait is more connected to people than to production, so I would drop the production bonus for national wonders, and go with the happiness bonus.
Keep in mind that this should only give happiness in the city where you built the NW, not in all cities. And I think +1 happiness is enough

In my mind Nationalistic trait should be something like this:
- +2 espionage points per city
- +1 happy faces for NWs in the city where you build them
- DPS for some espionage buildings (Security Bureau, Jail, maybe something else)
- no wait time between revolutions
- and maybe some kind of improved WLTKD

The two last bonuses are not that significant, the first 3 are the main bonuses. So I don't consider this overpowered
 
Holy crap, go away for the weekend and look at this!.

I have already said my piece on Traits in the original thread, and alot of the ideas have been discussed here but here goes

1) Should definilty be Trade focused, with a touch of Colonization. I called this Commercial, (because I didn't like the "Seafaring" name) but

Bonus to Trade Route Yield
+1 Movement to Naval (after Astronomy has been discovered)
+50% :hammers: to Explorer, Caravel

This Trait, I though could easily encompus the European leaders of the Age of Discovery, Spain, Portugal, England, Netherlands could all have a leader for this, Polynesia could have multiple leaders witht his trait.

2) Espionage
Call it Diplomatic/Secretive/whatever
Bonus to Diplomacy
+50 :hammers: to Spy units
+100% :hammers: to Security Bureau

I gave this trait to the "Statesmen" type leaders, thinking that "closer" negotiations could lead to more intelligence, at least in theory.

3) Tactical
Bonus to Siege Unit production
Less to Upgrade Units.

just a generic military minded trait for "generals"

4) Nationalistic
However I do like the Nationalistic Idea, seeing as their is alot of modern leaders being added and Nationalism is a relativly new concept.

-X War Weariness
+100% :hammers: Monument and Broadcast Tower

This Trait (paired with Charismatic), I feel would be perfect for Hitler. but thats just me.

If it were me, I would avoid any Agrian or Scientific for all the reasons mentioned above. It will be a nightmare to balance these, so it would be best to just omit. I tried both at one point, and to be honest, its not worth the headache.
 
I like the ideas, but I have to agree that there are two many benefits there. Four is pretty high. Three is the highest I'll go on any of them. And we shouldn't give seafaring too many unit bonuses.

I think Seafaring should be:
  • Starts game with Sailing (we might have to give every civ that has a searfaring leader fishing as a starting tech though)
  • +1 Line of Sight for all naval units
  • Faster production speed of Lighthouse, Harbor, Drydock
  • -50% Cost to Explorers

That is kind of more than I wanted to do for it, although since it is only naval I think we can get away with these bneefits here. First I took away the extra movement of ships in exchange for line of sight. +1 movement may be better though. I also removed the scout from the production modifier, I think Explorer is better as a scout is really more of a unit for land. I think starting the game with Sailing is a good bonus, the tech in and of itself may not be so great, but it does allow for early naval exploration and gives a slight technological edge (because you effectively start with three techs rather than two).

I have to get ready for work, so I can't get into the other trait.

In my eyes giving a free tech to one of the traits would make all the trait system -very- unbalanced. Even if it's not a very important tech, it would ruin all the early tech developing era.
You beeline to alphabet, and that extra tech gaves you a too big advantage in tech trades.
I'm totally against adding a tech to any of the traits, it wasn't a mistake Firaxis did not gave anything similar to any of the traits or leaders


Also I consider this trait to be connected with seafaring and exploring.
So give some bonuses like better or cheaper scouts too, this way if you start in the middle of a huge land or play on a map without oceans the trait wouldn't be totally useless.

So my first version of the Seafaring/Exploring trait:
- +1 move for naval units
- +1 line of sight for naval units and recon units (explorers, scouts)
- DPS for Harbor, Drydock, Custom House
- some slight production bonus to scouts, explorers, and some of the early naval units

We can find some better ideas to make the exploring part of a little stronger
Maybe a free promotion for scouts and explorers
 
I like the ideas, but I have to agree that there are two many benefits there. Four is pretty high. Three is the highest I'll go on any of them. And we shouldn't give seafaring too many unit bonuses.

I think Seafaring should be:
  • Starts game with Sailing (we might have to give every civ that has a searfaring leader fishing as a starting tech though)
  • +1 Line of Sight for all naval units
  • Faster production speed of Lighthouse, Harbor, Drydock
  • -50% Cost to Explorers

That is kind of more than I wanted to do for it, although since it is only naval I think we can get away with these bneefits here. First I took away the extra movement of ships in exchange for line of sight. +1 movement may be better though. I also removed the scout from the production modifier, I think Explorer is better as a scout is really more of a unit for land. I think starting the game with Sailing is a good bonus, the tech in and of itself may not be so great, but it does allow for early naval exploration and gives a slight technological edge (because you effectively start with three techs rather than two).

I have to get ready for work, so I can't get into the other trait.

You dont need to give all the Civs with a Seafaring trated leader Fishing. The code that tsentom1 has, still awards the Tech even if the prereqs are not met.

Also I know this is a idea list, but I dont believe any of the Vanilla traits have more than 2 bonuses. We should keep that in mind.
 
That's true, I'd also like to keep the bonuses relatively short. So two to three, but three only in cases where it makes sense. So maybe we should cut line of sight from seafaring since you get that with optics anyway.

So seafaring is:
  • +1 movement for naval units
  • Double Production speed of Lighthouse, Harbor, Drydock
  • Double training speed of Explorers, Scouts

We don't need to give a naval production bonus because that is what the drydock does. Line of sight is handled with Optics.
 
Who the fck cares how many lines of bonuses does the traits have? :D
The only thing matters is the overall strength and usefulness of the traits.
And how well balanced they are compared to the original ones
 
That's true, I'd also like to keep the bonuses relatively short. So two to three, but three only in cases where it makes sense. So maybe we should cut line of sight from seafaring since you get that with optics anyway.

So seafaring is:
  • +1 movement for naval units
    [*]Double Production speed of Lighthouse, Harbor, Drydock
  • Double training speed of Explorers, Scouts

We don't need to give a naval production bonus because that is what the drydock does. Line of sight is handled with Optics.

Arent there traits that give the Lighthouse and Harbor Production speed bonuses?

Also, I have to agree with Absinthe, it shouldn't matter if its covered somewhere else, just the relative, balanced strength.

If "No Tech Brokering" is played with, I dont believe a Civ can trade the Tech awarded in this mannor. But I am not sure on that, the only Trait I have played around with that concept is a "Nomadic" trait, where I gave Nomadic Leaders the Horseback Riding promo, and that Trait I only gave to Attila of the Huns.
But All that was done to try out some new concepts in game play.
 
If "No Tech Brokering" is played with, I dont believe a Civ can trade the Tech awarded in this mannor.

I'm not sure how that works either, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with researching the tech, so maybe not.

I suppose you are right about the lines of bonuses, but we should still err on the side of termperence rather than on the side of overpowering these traits. Traits are important in the game, don't get me wrong, but you aren't a good civ player if you rely on your traits. So we need to keep that in mind.
 
I'm not sure how that works either, but I'm pretty sure it has to do with researching the tech, so maybe not.

I suppose you are right about the lines of bonuses, but we should still err on the side of termperence rather than on the side of overpowering these traits. Traits are important in the game, don't get me wrong, but you aren't a good civ player if you rely on your traits. So we need to keep that in mind.

Dont get me wrong, I agree.
I feel though the traits should have a palpable bonus, otherwise whats the point?

Thats why for this Commercial/Seafaring one (which I thought should be combined for a reason I will discuss later) The bonuses should look like:
  • +1 Movement (with Astronomy)
    This is not an immiediate bonus, but at the beginning of the "Age of Sail/Discovery" those leaders with this trait will get a nice bonus.
  • +25% or +50% :commerce: from Trade Routes
    This comes out to be +10 :commerce: per city depending on the development of of the city. Not a huge bonus but a nice one. The Financial Trait has the ability to give +20 :commerce: .
  • +50% :hammers: (Production Trait) to Scouts, Explorers, and Caravels
    I think the Caravel is the importent part of this trait. It gives the trait-holder the ability to get a jump on the Age of Exploration, which is ideally what I think one wants with this trait.
  • +100% :hammers: on Customs House and Chamber of Commerce
    The Chamber of Commerce is a new building I have played with that adds +50% Commerce to the city.

If it were me, I would pick 3 of those bonuses. The one I would omit would either be the Bonus Commerce from Trade, or the Bonus hammers for the 2 buildings.

Now for the reason I like the Commerce/Naval hybrid. I think that a 100% naval trait will limit those leaders that have it, on a Pangaea or similar maps. It becomes quite worthless in those circumstances. The hybrid alleviates that somewhat.

EDIT:
Also since this is the part that matters, the leaders I gave this trait, with its combination:
  • Aggressive: Ragnar (Vikings) *Changed from Vanilla (Sunni Ali of Mali/Songhai got Aggressive/Financial)
  • Creative: Dido (Carthage)
  • Expansive: Henry (Portugal)
  • Financial: Elizabeth (English) *Changed from Vanilla (Meiji of Japan got Philosophical/Financial)
  • Industrious: Amenhotep (Egypt) or Hiram (Pheonicia)
  • Organized: Johan de Witt (Netherlands)
  • Philosophical: Osman (Ottomans) *dont have him in the game yet, just tenitivly placed him here.
  • Spiritual: Charles V (Spain/HRE)
  • Charismatic: Alfonso I (Portugal)
  • Imperialistic: Phillip II (Spain)
  • Protective: Menelik II (Ethiopia)

    These are 2 other traits I use
  • Tactical: Suppiluliuma (Hittite)
  • Diplomatic: Walesa (Poland)
Amenhotep and Menelik dont fit 100% but I didn't have a spot to put them at the time, and I forgot to move them.

Edit2 Fix some spelling.
 
That's true, I'd also like to keep the bonuses relatively short. So two to three, but three only in cases where it makes sense. So maybe we should cut line of sight from seafaring since you get that with optics anyway.

So seafaring is:
  • +1 movement for naval units
  • Double Production speed of Lighthouse, Harbor, Drydock
  • Double training speed of Explorers, Scouts

We don't need to give a naval production bonus because that is what the drydock does. Line of sight is handled with Optics.

Lighthouse is already made faster by Organized, Harbour by Expansive and Drydock by Aggresive. You'd need to change all 3 of those traits to make this possible. I suggest using the Custom House instead if you want a DPS building.

+25% or +50% :commerce: from Trade Routes
This comes out to be +10 :commerce: per city depending on the development of of the city. Not a huge bonus but a nice one. The Financial Trait has the ability to give +20 :commerce:

I've been using this for my diplomatic trait (able to negotiate better deals). I found it to be deceptively powerful. Financial is very overpowered but it requires a long term investment in easily-pillaged cottages to reap the full benefits. A trade network takes a while to build up initially but once it's built it can't be destroyed. Newly founded or captured cities are 'plugged in' instantly, especially if coastal. Because of this if the % is too high it becomes too powerful late game, particularly on archipelago maps. It is a cool mechanic but I recommend not giving more than 20%.

Remember that 10 commerce is 10 research, which is a lot. That's why Financial is so ridiculously overpowered.


Now for the reason I like the Commerce/Naval hybrid. I think that a 100% naval trait will limit those leaders that have it, on a Pangaea or similar maps. It becomes quite worthless in those circumstances. The hybrid alleviates that somewhat.

Completely agree 100% here. The reason people don't like Protective is because it is so situational. Seafaring could be even worse and not much fun if you start in Tibet. I second renaming it Enterprising or Commercial and giving it a hybrid naval/trade focus. That way it would still be a great trait for any Silk Road type civs too.
 
Shortening bonuses to 3 instead of 4:
NATIONALISTIC
- 25% decreased cost of national wonders
- +2 espionage per city
- +1 happiness per national wonder

SEAFARING
- +1 movement to naval units
- Naval units start with Drill 1
- Faster production of drydock, lighthouse, and harbor.

I do admit that seafaring loses its point on pangaea and maps that are lacking ocean, but honestly... that's kinda to be expected. Pangaea is almost never balanced, and the all-land-and-lake maps require an entirely different strategy than the other maps.
 
What about giving melee and gun units Amphibious for the Seafaring trait? I remember that's what Sevo did for SevoMod... although whether that'd fit into "Seafaring" is another thing.
 
What about giving melee and gun units Amphibious for the Seafaring trait? I remember that's what Sevo did for SevoMod... although whether that'd fit into "Seafaring" is another thing.

The only reason I dont like that is because the "Free Promotion" is used by 2 other traits. There is something along the lines of 8-10 concepts/code that can be implimented at the moment, so why copy a similar concept?


I do think the +X :commerce: from Trade Routes can get overpowered, which is why I thought to remove 1 of the 4 bonuses I listed (that being the one to remove).

This leaves the bonuses:

Double Production Speed on Customs House, Market (added in this one)
+50% :hammers: to production of Scout, Explorer, & Caravel
+1 Movement to Navel Units (when Astronomy is Learned).

The primary focus is Seafaring (extra movement, construction of Caravels), with a push in exploration (Scout/Explorer), and a touch of wealth/profiting from trade (Markets/Custom Houses.

Of the leaders I posted, Elizabeth would be Financial/Commercial, does anyone think this trait combination would be over powered?
 
My proposal for Seafaring/Enterprising/Commercial:

• +1 trade route per city
• +1 movement for Naval Units (triggered by a tech if desired)
• Double production speed of Market and Custom House

Adding an extra trade route gives a modest increase to commerce that never gets out of hand and isn't available until you have at least 2 connected cities, preventing an early science advantage. Trade routes are especially effective for coastal cities, keeping with the maritime theme. Custom House complements this well and the market is so that inland cities still have some advantage. No existing traits need to be changed.

I've been using this trait (Enterprising) in my mod and it's probably the most balanced of all the new ones I've added. I can see why people might want to add the scout/explorer bonus but personally I think that's pretty weak as they are not expensive units to begin with and feels like a bonus for the sake of a bonus.

When you think about it, all the great maritime civilizations (Phoenicia, Netherlands, Portugal, England, etc) have been motivated by trade and seeking new opportunities for commerce. I think this trait is balanced and fits the theme perfectly.
 
My proposal for Seafaring/Enterprising/Commercial:

• +1 trade route per city
• +1 movement for Naval Units (triggered by a tech if desired)
• Double production speed of Market and Custom House

Adding an extra trade route gives a modest increase to commerce that never gets out of hand and isn't available until you have at least 2 connected cities, preventing an early science advantage. Trade routes are especially effective for coastal cities, keeping with the maritime theme. Custom House complements this well and the market is so that inland cities still have some advantage. No existing traits need to be changed.

I've been using this trait (Enterprising) in my mod and it's probably the most balanced of all the new ones I've added. I can see why people might want to add the scout/explorer bonus but personally I think that's pretty weak as they are not expensive units to begin with and feels like a bonus for the sake of a bonus.

When you think about it, all the great maritime civilizations (Phoenicia, Netherlands, Portugal, England, etc) have been motivated by trade and seeking new opportunities for commerce. I think this trait is balanced and fits the theme perfectly.

I like that for the reason you mentioned, How do you actiave the +1 Trade Route, I havent seen that in the XML.
 
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