Worst wonder?

What is the worst world wonder?

  • Angkor Wat

    Votes: 24 4.6%
  • Broadway

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Chichen Itza

    Votes: 181 34.8%
  • Cristo Redentor

    Votes: 18 3.5%
  • Hollywood

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Mausoleum of Maussollos

    Votes: 9 1.7%
  • Notre Dame

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • Rock 'n' Roll

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • Shwedagon Paya

    Votes: 25 4.8%
  • Stonehenge

    Votes: 6 1.2%
  • The Colossus

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Eiffel Tower

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • The Hagia Sophia

    Votes: 36 6.9%
  • The Hanging Gardens

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • The Parthenon

    Votes: 1 0.2%
  • The Pentagon

    Votes: 5 1.0%
  • The Space Elevator

    Votes: 113 21.7%
  • The Spiral Minaret

    Votes: 2 0.4%
  • The Statue of Zeus

    Votes: 11 2.1%
  • The Taj Mahal

    Votes: 7 1.3%
  • The Temple of Artemis

    Votes: 10 1.9%
  • The Three Gorges Dam

    Votes: 3 0.6%
  • University of Sankore

    Votes: 4 0.8%
  • Versailles

    Votes: 12 2.3%
  • The Internet

    Votes: 44 8.5%

  • Total voters
    520
I've made the math some time ago and my conclusion was that SE was only worthwhile in a situation where you can build the SE before finishing Apollo, and this only considering the hammer costs. SE actually gives a very small actual bonus to the SS build when you factor all the other stuff in ( Cu, Al , forges, factories, power, laboratories, even IW if you fancy it ) since it only gives a 100% boost to the build. Burning a GE or two in there might look apealing, but those are better used in a GA most of the times ( even settling them gives a hard fight if you put them in a city with good hammer modifiers and build a decent bunch of SS parts there ) and cash rush it is a nonsense compared with the tech output you could get from that money at this stage of the game , with libs, univs , observatories, laboratories, academies and oxford already there most likely ( and how many times you will be able to tech everything you need for a SS before you start SE ? ... ) . And all of this without factoring the cost of robotics techwise ...

Atleast Chichen Itza + walls + castle means normally a couple of extra turns to reinforce a sieged city and 25% defense from the start is a decent asset in war ;)
 
oh yeah... space elevator is so bad that i don't even consider it :( my fault. It is worse than chicken pizza too.
 
I'd say the internet is the worst. I am usually at least an era ahead of most of the ais, and they can't even build it yet. The only reason I would built it is to stop my enemy from building it and learning all my knowledge. Of course, the hammers wasted on building it could just wipe out the ai who is building it.
 
Well the Internet is a project not a wonder, as TMIT pointed out.
It's pretty good at Immortal difficulty ;)
 
You are the only elite player I know that supports space elevator. If you can put a convincing argument in favor of it, I might change my opinion of the thing.

Many years ago when people insisted Space Race was impossible on deity I used to gun for it ALL THE TIME, until everyone got sick of it and wanted something different. So that should tell you something.

Unfortunately, just about all those images from those games are long gone now I think, but I'm sure there's people around who remember I would cap out to around 1400 to 1600 hammers a turn production. And this was WITHOUT a golden-age. So you may want to think long and hard on that.

I can see how SE is devalued a bit in BtS, since the OF bug can really screw you over, also due to how AI's have been changed to go after Culture before you can launch now, etc. space races are quite less viable these days. I'll still do it the odd time when things work out just right.

Anyhow, try to sabotage space ship productions when an AI has SE, and you'll see how expensive things can get.
 
I'd say the internet is the worst.

Just when I couldn't possibly think there'd be more bad info here... Even if that was a wonder...
 
I can see how SE is devalued a bit in BtS, since the OF bug can really screw you over, also due to how AI's have been changed to go after Culture before you can launch now, etc. space races are quite less viable these days. I'll still do it the odd time when things work out just right.
QTF. SE in vanilla and warlords was a completely diferent cup of tea, and even then it would not always be true that building SE would make the SS build faster.
Anyhow, try to sabotage space ship productions when an AI has SE, and you'll see how expensive things can get.
Ok, denial value ... same shelf than SoZ in that regard. And that is not a compliment.

P.S
I'd say the internet is the worst. I am usually at least an era ahead of most of the ais, and they can't even build it yet. The only reason I would built it is to stop my enemy from building it and learning all my knowledge. Of course, the hammers wasted on building it could just wipe out the ai who is building it.
Heavens, if you can be a era ahead of the AI in the level you play, obviously the Net will not give you a dime... In the same way that barracks will net you 0 XP if you never build units in that city. So barracks should be the worst building in the game , right? :p
 
Chichen Itza. Yeah, Space Elevator isn't great either, but at least if you can rush some of its production with a Great Engineer it's sort of OK (of course you need Robotics too...). Chichen Itza is garbage in pretty much every scenario.
 
Cristo Redento. You get it so late in the game, and if you are spiritual does almost NOTHING for you. If you aren't spiritual, but have a Golden Age end game, same thing.

If you aren't spiritual, and don't have a golden age end game... then it let's you change civics... which is not really common thing to do at the point in the game you get the dang thing.

Space Elevator: Allows you to turn Commerce into space ship parts, which you can't otherwise do. I think that really addresses why it can be useful. Tech + Bought space elevator is the only real way to money into hammers for the space race.
 
I know the space elevator is horrible, but I *have* traded for robotics, built it, and come out a bit ahead from it. Maybe 2 turns. At least it does no harm if you don't go well out of your way to get it.

Angkor Wat is the worst. It is nothing but a source of great prophet pollution, and to add insult to injury, you actually have to make the specialists yourself. :rolleyes: I'll take the great library instead. I'll take anything else, instead. Angkor Wat is up there with the dog soldier as being so bad, you wish you didn't even have it. It might be something you grudgingly pick up for a lame cultural win game. That's about it.

Hagia Sophia is probably equally worthless, but at least you get engineer points from it, not great prophets.
 
Angkor Wat makes priests better than engineers. And settled great prophets are really good.
 
I had to go with Hagia Sophia. Maybe it's better in those advanced starts which I don't play, but it seems like a lot of effort and hammers to just get your workers to work a little faster when you could build more workers. People get by without serfdom, right?
 
Only reason I don't list Hagia Sophia as the worst is because it gives Great Engineer Points, and isn't too late in the game.
 
You're still building a bad wonder to get those Engineer Points, though, and the opportunity cost of getting that Engineer is not getting some other great person. And the first Great Engineer probably will just build a good wonder you should have been building before Hagia Sophia anyway. :)
 
Angkor Wat is up there with the dog soldier as being so bad, you wish you didn't even have it.

You are doing something wrong.

LOL @ the comment about Cristo being useless.
 
You are doing something wrong.

LOL @ the comment about Cristo being useless.

LOL @ the comment about Cristo not being useless.
 
Chicken Pizza for me.
I play Next War so SE is done by the time i get astrogation. :p

Wait... It has SE in regular non Next War game? Hmm... weird.

which makes me wonder (see what I did there? :) Ah whatever :sad:), in regular game there is the mission into another solar system with our current technology and it has SE while you have mission to MARS which starts much later in Next War. Very weird. Anyone understands what I'm talking about?
 
Many years ago when people insisted Space Race was impossible on deity I used to gun for it ALL THE TIME, until everyone got sick of it and wanted something different. So that should tell you something.

Pre-BTS was a whoooooooole different ballgame. You could actually build the SE soonish with consistency, the AIs launched MUCH EARLIER with their obscene bonuses that BTS can't touch (usually), and space or getting killed were the only two ways you could possibly lose. I do not argue against pre-BTS space elevator for the record.

Unfortunately, just about all those images from those games are long gone now I think, but I'm sure there's people around who remember I would cap out to around 1400 to 1600 hammers a turn production. And this was WITHOUT a golden-age. So you may want to think long and hard on that.

Actually it requires neither long nor hard thought - you had so much production that SE would save you maybe a turn per part, if you couldn't just 1-shot it regardless. Remember, BACK THEN you could build SE using only technologies needed for space race. Now, that isn't the case, you'd have to tech robotics. But why would you tech robotics? You clearly have enough production to handle your tech rate and then some, banging out parts before you reach the next space tech. I doubt with 1600 :hammers:/turn that 1) bothering to grab an extra tech and 2) building an extra building would help much in terms of speed in BTS. If you can come up with math to the contrary I'd like to see it, because at those kinds of :hammers:/turn, you can literally build any space part in 2 turns on normal speed (even without resources!), and most in 1. Are you also teching the likes of fiber optics and fusion in a single turn? You'd need 10,000's of bpt...not likely. The math here isn't making sense to favor SE in BTS...at least not yet.

Actually your comment is in line with supporting my argument against BTS SE ----> production is not the typical bottleneck, tech is...and having to grab an otherwise un-necessary tech to get the wonder really kills it. Even in the most cookie cutter state property or cottage spam mining-inc empires with a measly 10 :hammers: turn corp have enough hammers! Take a boring 60 base :hammers: emancipation + state property city, slop in IW + lab, and you can build an engine in 10 turns :/. Teching fusion ahead of say composites allows enough of a head start on the engines that your little 50 base hammer cities can bang out casings in ~10 turns. Finally tech the weak ecology and have the IW city cram it in alongside the casings.

In other words, even an empire with very paltry production compared to your example can simply tech the space parts in such an order that it can finish them fast enough to keep up with technology rates of ~2000 bpt! For space elevator to win in the scenario I described above, it would have to shave more turns off final completion post-ecology than it took to research it, factoring in the cost of building it also. It's not likely to even catch up based on the beaker cost of robotics, and that's the point.

I can see how SE is devalued a bit in BtS, since the OF bug can really screw you over, also due to how AI's have been changed to go after Culture before you can launch now, etc. space races are quite less viable these days. I'll still do it the odd time when things work out just right.

IMO space is easier now than in vanilla. This is because AI space got nerfed to @#$%# hell. In pre-BTS, completing the space ship was an instant win. That's not true in BTS, and the AI has to hang onto its capitol for 10 turns. As expensive as sabotage is against a space elevator AI, 3-4 subs with nukes and a set of paratroopers takes them allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll the way back to 0 parts in a hurry. What's even funnier is, if you delete your units so the AI can't kill them, it thinks you have 100's of war success to its 0 and WILL TAKE PEACE THE FOLLOWING TURN, even if it has 5x your power. Seriously. I posted a game here a while back where I won as the 3rd civ to launch...and was dead last in power :/. I don't know how things were in 'nilla, because I wasn't a high level player before BTS came out. However, I doubt things were much EASIER than that!

Heavens, if you can be a era ahead of the AI in the level you play, obviously the Net will not give you a dime... In the same way that barracks will net you 0 XP if you never build units in that city. So barracks should be the worst building in the game , right?

The granary is obviously worse if you never grow your cities ;).

Angkor Wat is the worst. It is nothing but a source of great prophet pollution, and to add insult to injury, you actually have to make the specialists yourself. I'll take the great library instead. I'll take anything else, instead. Angkor Wat is up there with the dog soldier as being so bad, you wish you didn't even have it. It might be something you grudgingly pick up for a lame cultural win game. That's about it.

It makes priests arguably the best yield spec in the game :/. They're not bad in rep at all. For a wonder GPP farm for settled great people it works very well too. I'm not going to advocate its use for shrines though, normally. However, that IS a viable use for it if you happen to bulb taoism on a continent with multiple people w/o religion (a rare situation, but it happens and you might as well capitalize when it does).

You're still building a bad wonder to get those Engineer Points, though, and the opportunity cost of getting that Engineer is not getting some other great person. And the first Great Engineer probably will just build a good wonder you should have been building before Hagia Sophia anyway.

Not to mention that consistently better alternatives such as hanging gardens, pyramids, and forge spec are available. H. Sophia is one of those things that's a little better in non-standard era starts IMO, though in its case still not impressive.

LOL @ the comment about Cristo being useless.

Indeed. It would probably be the most abusive wonder in the game if it came a bit sooner, and if we didn't have things like the UN or especially the Apostolic Palace, which is the single most broken concept that was intentionally placed in this game.

Deity game with 10 total empire pop and 20000 beakers behind the penultimate AI? No problem, because we got the AP! Diplo WIN!

So despite the cool espionage, diplo screw, and mere civic swap usage power of CR, it doesn't quite match up in "abuse potential" to the Apostolic "autowin" palace.

which makes me wonder (see what I did there? Ah whatever ), in regular game there is the mission into another solar system with our current technology and it has SE while you have mission to MARS which starts much later in Next War. Very weird. Anyone understands what I'm talking about?

No, but I do wonder why they attached SE to robotics in BTS, because it doesn't make sense and unless Obs can give us some useful math to show us that we're wrong, it made it an almost guaranteed bad play when before it was viable. In real life, the #1 greatest problem with a space elevator is that we can't make anything that can handle the tensile stress IIRC. Not sure how robotics would assist that outside of some very vague half-@#$ hand-waves. If a game is going to abandon realism, it should only do it because doing so adds balance or fun/depth! In this game, SE in BTS is sort of like global warming - questionable from gameplay AND realism standpoints. Ouch.
 
I could see AW working if I had the AP religion and spammed temples and monasteries for the hammers, and I had pumped out a few great scientists already so any great prophets emerge late in the game for golden ages. It might also come in handy if I lack the charismatic trait and have extremely few luxuries, so temples would look appealing. So, by making a priest in each city, it gives me an extra hammer. Possibly 2, in big cities that need multiple temples and the AW city itself.

It's worth maybe 6-8 hammers a turn, and I'm being generous. I prefer chicken pizza.
 
Shwedagon Paya

Surprised I was the first.
I NEVER build this... ever.

SE... it is situational, and usually not something I go for (also because the lattitude restrictions it has limits it even further).

Internet generally sucks, if winning anyhow, but I have had it make a difference in a couple of higher level games.

Angor Kat is another one I never build.

SoZ... great to take, I never build it though.

Cristo... this is very good! Look, in the late stages, free civics changes can be huge in a close match (unless you are already spiritual, which I avoid in general).

Never build Notre Dame... nor Sistene (the AI always prioritizes that tech!)

Spiral Minaret!? If you put that in your Holy Shrine/Finance Capital... then throw in a corp or two and avoid the tech that obsoletes as long as possible, you can run 100% with surplus for quite some time!!!

ToA. Yes. This is close to last for me. If you have it, you have denied yourself double the value of a GM trade route! This can mean thousands of gold for you... and thousands for the AI!!!! Don't build it unless you have a plan (close borders with merchantilism and vassals... if you feel ok predicting that so early).

Versailles?! Awesome to take from the computer while your ever growing empire starts costing more and more. No way this is a bad one.
 
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