techumseh
Deity
All fixed! Much thanks to TheNamelessOne. On with the scenario! 
Summer Project
- Thread starter techumseh
- Start date
Tanelorn
Deity
OT, but something similar happened with the "Case White" scenario I was making. I mean, the scenario loads ok but after one or two turns it crashes. It could be rules related, but in that case the scenario wouldn't load at all, right?
techumseh
Deity
Are you using the ToT Patch?
Tanelorn
Deity
Yes,it is the previous version of ToTPP (I have updated since). I have the navigable rivers on too.
techumseh
Deity
Crashes after several turns can be related to an error in the tech tree. If there is a "loop" or one or more of the civs can't research "future technology", it can cause the scenario to crash. Otherwise, it could be something to do with the patch.
Tanelorn
Deity
Makes sense. I usually disable both gunpowder and chivalry techs, but when moving techs around later the path to future tech must be open, i.e. check whether any techs point back to those two.
Thanks.
Thanks.
techumseh
Deity
I'm overdue for an update. McMonkey's rapid progress has motivated me to get going on my own project.
I've placed all the units at the start and have done most of the events for the first campaign season, from the initial airraids in Dec 1941 until the onset of the monsoon in July 1942. I've been experimenting with balancing the reinforcements and the moveunit commands to get the historical pace of the Japanese offensive, which captured all of the country in that short period. I've been plagued with Japanese units being disbanded by the AI, but homing event-created reinforcements to captured cities has reduced the size of the problem.
There are several problems that need to be worked out:
1. The initial offensive has to be carefully calculated. The Japanese need to break into southern Burma from Thailand, and head for Rangoon. Once they capture it, they can bring in major reinforcements. But the British need to be able to hang on to it until they can bring in their historical reinforcements: the 17 Indian division in Feb '42 and the 7 Armoured Brigade in March. Then they must retreat as fast as they can for the Indian border, 1000 km to the north. The Japanese then need to head north - fast - in order to capture Burma before the monsoon. So far I have not found the solution, but will carry on.
2. The quality of the Japanese army and air force was initially very good, but declined as the campaign went on. So, I've divided the infantry into two types: the original 15 Army of 4 divisions, and everything that comes later. 15th Army units will all
be veteran, and the infantry and mountain artillery will treat all terrain (except impassible) as road (X2) and ignore ZOCs. This is to represent their jungle training and infiltration tactics. This has helped speed up the Japanese offensive considerably. Subsequent reinforcements will not have these abilities or be veteran (including air units).
Allied unit will all start as non-veterans, except the 7th Armoured Brigade (formerly part of 8th Army) and units of the American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers). Only Long-range Penetration units (Chindits and Marauders) will be able to move as road and ignore ZOCs. The British player will later be able to build Slim's Training Camp (Sun Tzu's Academy), so the proportion of Allied veteran units will rise while the Japanese proportion falls.
3. Who runs the Chinese troops? The Chinese Expeditionary Force initially entered Burma with 3 armies, equivalent to about 3 divisions. During the retreat, some went back to China, and some ended up in India, under Stilwell. I will make part of this force British, and part under the Chinese civ. How to divide it up and get the Chinese civ's forces in and out of Burma is a challenge.
4. The Thai Army occupied north-eastern Burma, and fought several battles against the Chinese Army there. Trouble is, the Japanese now get to those cities first. It should be fairly easy to fix. Keeping Thai units from wandering farther west in Burma is also an issue.
Finally, I'm finding my elaborate supply rules (see earlier post) to be a bit of a nuisance and not really needed. So that frees up a couple more unit slots. I'll keep the American trucks as trigger units for Chinese lend-lease events.
I've placed all the units at the start and have done most of the events for the first campaign season, from the initial airraids in Dec 1941 until the onset of the monsoon in July 1942. I've been experimenting with balancing the reinforcements and the moveunit commands to get the historical pace of the Japanese offensive, which captured all of the country in that short period. I've been plagued with Japanese units being disbanded by the AI, but homing event-created reinforcements to captured cities has reduced the size of the problem.
There are several problems that need to be worked out:
1. The initial offensive has to be carefully calculated. The Japanese need to break into southern Burma from Thailand, and head for Rangoon. Once they capture it, they can bring in major reinforcements. But the British need to be able to hang on to it until they can bring in their historical reinforcements: the 17 Indian division in Feb '42 and the 7 Armoured Brigade in March. Then they must retreat as fast as they can for the Indian border, 1000 km to the north. The Japanese then need to head north - fast - in order to capture Burma before the monsoon. So far I have not found the solution, but will carry on.
2. The quality of the Japanese army and air force was initially very good, but declined as the campaign went on. So, I've divided the infantry into two types: the original 15 Army of 4 divisions, and everything that comes later. 15th Army units will all
be veteran, and the infantry and mountain artillery will treat all terrain (except impassible) as road (X2) and ignore ZOCs. This is to represent their jungle training and infiltration tactics. This has helped speed up the Japanese offensive considerably. Subsequent reinforcements will not have these abilities or be veteran (including air units).
Allied unit will all start as non-veterans, except the 7th Armoured Brigade (formerly part of 8th Army) and units of the American Volunteer Group (Flying Tigers). Only Long-range Penetration units (Chindits and Marauders) will be able to move as road and ignore ZOCs. The British player will later be able to build Slim's Training Camp (Sun Tzu's Academy), so the proportion of Allied veteran units will rise while the Japanese proportion falls.
3. Who runs the Chinese troops? The Chinese Expeditionary Force initially entered Burma with 3 armies, equivalent to about 3 divisions. During the retreat, some went back to China, and some ended up in India, under Stilwell. I will make part of this force British, and part under the Chinese civ. How to divide it up and get the Chinese civ's forces in and out of Burma is a challenge.
4. The Thai Army occupied north-eastern Burma, and fought several battles against the Chinese Army there. Trouble is, the Japanese now get to those cities first. It should be fairly easy to fix. Keeping Thai units from wandering farther west in Burma is also an issue.
Finally, I'm finding my elaborate supply rules (see earlier post) to be a bit of a nuisance and not really needed. So that frees up a couple more unit slots. I'll keep the American trucks as trigger units for Chinese lend-lease events.
techumseh
Deity
Thanks. If you put enough thought into the events, the playing of it should be smooth and intuitive.
Hopefully the extra events space with ToTPP will help you iron out any issues.
The first part sounds like it will consist of the player getting their ass kicked and the struggle to get your units back to defensive positions in the North in decent fighting order. From what you are saying the most exciting part of the scenario will be the desperate fighting near the Indian and Chinese borders and the struggle to first halt, then reverse the momentum of the Japanese advance. Then the struggle will be one of logistics and I'm guessing the Chindit and Marauder raids and trying out new tactics. Once the enemy has been halted (if they can be halted!) the end part could be more of a mopping up operation. Will the Japanese launch any counter-attacks in this final phase? How will you keep it challenging to the end?
The first part sounds like it will consist of the player getting their ass kicked and the struggle to get your units back to defensive positions in the North in decent fighting order. From what you are saying the most exciting part of the scenario will be the desperate fighting near the Indian and Chinese borders and the struggle to first halt, then reverse the momentum of the Japanese advance. Then the struggle will be one of logistics and I'm guessing the Chindit and Marauder raids and trying out new tactics. Once the enemy has been halted (if they can be halted!) the end part could be more of a mopping up operation. Will the Japanese launch any counter-attacks in this final phase? How will you keep it challenging to the end?
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
@Tech:
I have some nice 1900s era Japanese/Chinese cities, if you wish to use them on this scen?
I have some nice 1900s era Japanese/Chinese cities, if you wish to use them on this scen?
techumseh
Deity
McMonkey: You've got 1942 down pretty well. Each year is effectively only 8 months of active campaigning due to the Monsoon. 1943 was the British training and refining tactics, with raids and limited offensives that were defeated by the Japanese. In 1944, the Japanese launched a full scale invasion of India (Operation Ichi-Go) that was only stopped with difficulty. Had it succeeded, a large uprising against the British in India would have been likely, so I'm going to include that. The defeat of the Japanese offensive in 1944 made a full-scale counter-invasion of Burma possible in 1945. Then the race to Rangoon before the end of the scenario to see who wins.
Curt: Yes, please. If you have one in matching Burmese/Indian style, it would also be very welcome. Thank you.
Curt: Yes, please. If you have one in matching Burmese/Indian style, it would also be very welcome. Thank you.
CurtSibling
ENEMY ACE™
I'll have a looksee, and post them on the forum soon.
I see, so the final campaigning season will be a race to reach Rangoon before the monsoon kicks in. Sounds like it could be tense!
The reason I questioned this is that I tend to enjoy the early parts of scenarios where a powerful enemy must be stopped, armies must be built and foundational campaigns fought. Then when the tipping point comes and the outcome seems inevitable I tend to lose interest in the mopping up operation. A scenario that can challenge to the last turn is what we all want to build and play. It sounds like you have a solid concept!
The reason I questioned this is that I tend to enjoy the early parts of scenarios where a powerful enemy must be stopped, armies must be built and foundational campaigns fought. Then when the tipping point comes and the outcome seems inevitable I tend to lose interest in the mopping up operation. A scenario that can challenge to the last turn is what we all want to build and play. It sounds like you have a solid concept!
techumseh
Deity
Thanks. It was a solid campaign, lots of back and forth. Little known however. Hence the title: "Burma Campaign. The Forgotten War".
techumseh
Deity
2 major problems in the design of Burma have defied my tinkering, and more decisive steps are needed.
1) Despite trying various expedients, I can't get the AI to stop disbanding Japanese units. I've decided to add a Japanese city that all initial units are homed to. Actually, it's a Thai city on the Kra Isthmus, south of Bangkok that was occupied by the Japanese. It's not huge, but I gave all Japanese units the 'free support for fundamentalism' flag, so there shouldn't be any shortage of shields.
2) There aren't enough turns. Using monthly turns, and with the monsoon limiting the active campaign season to 7 months/year, the scenario doesn't allow anywhere near the historical rate of advance in 1942. The Japanese captured Rangoon in early March, and moving north, captured the rest of the country by the end of May, or less than 3 turns. Even by making the Japanese units over-powerful and over-fast, and increasing the rail movement, it takes at least 7-8 game turns in the scenario -without the monsoon.
I didn't want to drop the monsoon; it had such a massive affect on operations and strategy. So, very reluctantly, I'm dropping monthly turns in favor of bi-weekly ones. Monsoon turns will still be a month each. That means sequential numbering of the turns instead of dates, so the date of each turn will have to be announced by events. A pain for sure, but with the Patch, no worries about using up too much events memory.
All of this means re-calibrating the movement of units and other tedious reworking, but it will all be worth it in the end. I hope.
1) Despite trying various expedients, I can't get the AI to stop disbanding Japanese units. I've decided to add a Japanese city that all initial units are homed to. Actually, it's a Thai city on the Kra Isthmus, south of Bangkok that was occupied by the Japanese. It's not huge, but I gave all Japanese units the 'free support for fundamentalism' flag, so there shouldn't be any shortage of shields.
2) There aren't enough turns. Using monthly turns, and with the monsoon limiting the active campaign season to 7 months/year, the scenario doesn't allow anywhere near the historical rate of advance in 1942. The Japanese captured Rangoon in early March, and moving north, captured the rest of the country by the end of May, or less than 3 turns. Even by making the Japanese units over-powerful and over-fast, and increasing the rail movement, it takes at least 7-8 game turns in the scenario -without the monsoon.
I didn't want to drop the monsoon; it had such a massive affect on operations and strategy. So, very reluctantly, I'm dropping monthly turns in favor of bi-weekly ones. Monsoon turns will still be a month each. That means sequential numbering of the turns instead of dates, so the date of each turn will have to be announced by events. A pain for sure, but with the Patch, no worries about using up too much events memory.
All of this means re-calibrating the movement of units and other tedious reworking, but it will all be worth it in the end. I hope.
Best of luck with this Tech. Seasons do complicate the design process, but with something like the monsoon they have to be represented properly. I have added date pop ups every turn in SCW, even though they are not strictly required. ToTPP allows us a bit more leeway with events!
In SCW the Nationalists have set every city to War Effort (Capitalization) and they have built up a huge gold reserve but they produce no units. This is not a problem as their units are events generated, but it would be good if they would build some Infantry or Field Guns. I have removed their ability to Capitalise and will see what they do instead. So far I have not noticed them disbanding any event generated units. It would be good if ToTPP could do something about the AI stopping building units after a certain number! I will ask TNO about this.
In SCW the Nationalists have set every city to War Effort (Capitalization) and they have built up a huge gold reserve but they produce no units. This is not a problem as their units are events generated, but it would be good if they would build some Infantry or Field Guns. I have removed their ability to Capitalise and will see what they do instead. So far I have not noticed them disbanding any event generated units. It would be good if ToTPP could do something about the AI stopping building units after a certain number! I will ask TNO about this.
EZRhino
Chieftain
Does the disallow disbanding flag not work?
techumseh
Deity
No, it's for human-controlled civ units only. There's also one for barbarian units, but nothing for AI-controlled civs. I can add that my latest changes have had no effect on the disbanding problem, which is possibly even worse. I didn't have this problem with Operation Market-Garden, which has a similar structure. I'm out of ideas.
I haven't tested extensively (as in checked each turn for AI unit numbers) but I have not noticed any issues with the Nationalists in SCW. Roughly how many Japanese units are there and how many are disbanding each turn? I'm sure there is a logical explanation for this.
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