The Ancient Mediterranean MOD

Fireb said:

And as to choosing Romulus as an early Roman leader: He was, after all, the son of Mars, and a God in his own right, which more or less disqualifies him.

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Romulus son of Mars ?

Re: Etruria:

Well, I guess I'll remove Etruria and use that CIV slot for something else, such as the Goths (to be featured on Kargath's excellent map).

Re: Dido

Sychaeus and Sicharbus etymologically suggest that they're the same person, just different ways of writing (Sychaeus is a Romanized Greek form, while Sicharbus is a Latin form). I'll go with Sychaeus.

Sorry for not updating much recently, lots to do.

Re Dido (2)

Cool story, onedreamer. Where did you read it?

Thamis,

Instead of attaching the file, I'll just tell you (and anyone else who wants to adjust the tech rate) how to do it. Just go to the Assets\XML folder of the mod and open the 'GameInfo' file. You don't have to scroll down far and you will see <ResearchPercent>100</iResearchPercent> amongst the other similar lines. Raising the number slows the tech rate. Lowering it speeds things up. At a setting of 150 I was just discovering Knights, Macemen and Caravels in the last 20 turns or so. It did make very slow going at first because I didn't start with ANY free techs! I'm not sure if that was intentional or if any of the competing civ's were in the same boat.

Thanks.

I now know why Rome didn't start with any techs. There was an error in the XML which I have fixed for the next update.

thamis said:

Re Dido (2)

Cool story, onedreamer. Where did you read it?

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This is the story reported in Justin, who wrote it about 200 years later than his source Trogus. You can find it in mythology compilations.

Its a little more detailed. Pygmalion wanted her brother in law's money. Elissa has it put into bags and thrown into the sea to avoid its capture. When found though they are filled with dust.

There is a lot of mythological mumbo-jumbo there, which is very controversial. If you are a Golden Bough fan, you can see some of the theories. For Robert Graves fans, you have Elissa as the goddess representative, Pygmalion as the tanist who kills the sacred king Sicarbus, but then puts in a patriarchy as usual with the early pre background mythology.

There are more stories here too!

Breunor

onedreamer said:

Romulus son of Mars ?

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Almost all of our knowledge of ancient Rome is semi-mythological. Indeed, the 'official' year for the founding of Rome (753 BC) is probably too early.

The sources for the Romulus stories are Livy and Plutarch, writing hundreds of years later. Most of the sotries associated with them are clearly mythological, setting up importnat backgrounds. He and his twin Remus come from Alba Longa. The eventually found a city but abduct the Sabine women to take as wives. This story is made to explain why Rome had long wars with the Samnites and the hill people of central Rome for centuries.

Being the son of Mars also sets up their military strength. According to legend Romulus established the first legion of 3000 men (highly unlikely). So, his father was a god (and his mother a vestal vergin).


For a more historic leader of early rime, you can try Camillus, who was given credit byt he romans for drving the Gauls off after the sack (also unlikely) but also for rebuilding them. I've always found it odd that Rome reestablished intself as the principle power in central Italy by about 340 -- 330 BCE. Obviously, this was a critical period. Livy reports Camillus' influence.

Of course, after that are the Samnite Wars, and then the Punic Wars. And then ....

Another reasonable choice is Marcus Junius Brutus, who was given credit for overthrowing the kindship and establishing the Roman Republic in 509 BC.

However, for a game, and a popular one, sticking with Romulus is OK with me!


Breunor

thamis said:

Re: Religion:

Judaism and Christinity could be a problem. But, to be honest. I don't care. Whoever takes his or her religion THAT seriously has lost all credibility in my eyes, and should go back to his religious mind and contemplate the deeper meaning of the word "game."

I am open to suggestions, as long as nobody flames me though.

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It may be hard to get the CIV IV religion concept into an ancient game.

Religion in ancient times is complex stuff. Religion rarely cauused the kind of divide it did and does in later times. As polytheists, most of the world viewed other religions as largely converted versions of their own. So, the famous quote that the Gauls worship Mercury shows how people thought -- the Romans knew the Gauls had their own pantheon, but the characteristics of their dieties were different to some degree. So the Romans and Greeks (whom I know best) matched them, viewing them as worshippping in differnt incarnations.

Having said that, there were tremendous differences in the actual practices and in major differences. Zoroatrianism can't be reconcilied with, for instance, a Greco-Roman religious system. Greece and Rome had different views of religion in daily practice. The Egyptians were more religious in terms of how much energy was placed on religious observance (Herodotus claims they are the most religious people in the world).

The religious class was very powerful in Egypt. In Rome, the Pontifex Maximus was viewed as effectively a secular power given his ability to 'interpret' religion, which Fabius Maximus used essentially to remain as general throught the second Punic War. Greece never had a powerful religious class, although the key oracles, especially Delphi, were important.

In Mesopotamia, the religious class was powerful but also served useful social functions as scribes and the like. Zoroastrainism was differnt, whcih did lead to more follwoing, organization, and cultural development.

Anyway, I don't have a lot of guidance to give you. My view would be that religion doesn't have quite the cultural power that it has for the religions in the main game like Christianity and Hinduism, but much of the literature comes from religion. (Greek drama from Athens were from plays given in honor rot he god Dionysus). They also didn't cause the political divides with other Civ's that they do now. Nonetheless, religious CIVICS were clearly improtant, and how the religion tied to the government wsa crucial -- there was no Egypt or Babylon without their religious functions.

Anyway, just my opinion.

Breunor

The Last Conformist said:

Re: Sargon, there where three Mesopotamian personages of that name: Sargon of Akkad, famous as the founder of the world's first empire, an early Assyrian king of whom little is known beyond the name, and Sargon II, founder of Assyria's last and most famous dynasty, the "Sargonids", and king both of Assyria and Babylonia. None of them would make too much sense as a Babylonian hero, methinks.

A more worthy candidate might be Nabopolassar, the king who together with the Medes destroyed Assyria, and who founded the Neobabylonian empire.

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Sorry Last,

I wouldn't use them. The 'Neo-Babylonians' were the Chaldaens. The ancient Babylonians represented for msot of the game, like Hammarabi, were the original Amorites. It was really a different civilization in a lot of ways.

Breunor

Romulus was son of Mars in the roman legends/tales only to justify the fact that the romans called themselves the favourite of Mars... but in the mythology he wasn't connected with Mars AFAIK. Anyways I wouldn't choose Romulus as leader, Camillus is rather a hero than a leader and I think that Julius Casar is a fair choice because he is the "bridge" between republican and imperial Rome. TAM lasts way beyond the birth and death of Rome's Republic, so I don't agree with the fact that the choice of a leader should be bound to the early Republic only.

Karhgath said:

Actually, no Nubia. I've done the map so that the sahara is, mostly, cut out of the map. I didn't want a big map, so I had to cut somewhere. Here's the height map:

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If I may offer a suggestion. I noticed the Caspian goes north off the edge of the map. What about having 1 or 2 land strips to allow marching back and forth? While unrealistic it would open up the chance of units marching around it from the north. As it is now the northeast corner is well protected by mountains to the south. None of the civs back then had huge caspian sea navies that I am aware of to move their armies westward.

onedreamer said:

Romulus was son of Mars in the roman legends/tales only to justify the fact that the romans called themselves the favourite of Mars... but in the mythology he wasn't connected with Mars AFAIK. Anyways I wouldn't choose Romulus as leader, Camillus is rather a hero than a leader and I think that Julius Casar is a fair choice because he is the "bridge" between republican and imperial Rome. TAM lasts way beyond the birth and death of Rome's Republic, so I don't agree with the fact that the choice of a leader should be bound to the early Republic only.

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Yes,

I thought you were talking about a hero, that's why I said Camillus. I wouldn't use him for the 'Big' leader since he is too obscure. (if I were picking the best leader and not the most famous I would change a lot of them). For overall leader Romulus and Numa are good legendary guys. But I would stick with Caesar or Augustus.

Breunor

thamis said:

@onedreamer:

I'm going to stick with the German "Alarich" and "Theoderich", they were Germanic people after all.

There is Sargon of Assyria, and Sargon II of Babylonia. Of course we could use someone else though.

I'm going to find some Phoenician hero who is not Hiram or Dido. ;-)

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What about a guy by the name of Hasdrupal (Barca). Not Hannibal's close kin, rather a Phoenician who led Khemet's (Egypt's) foreign legion (e.g. Medjay= made up of Nubians, Libyan, Phonecians, Greeks from the Decapolis, Arabs and Judeans) against the Persians. He does not get one percent of the press that other ancient generals get, but other than for the Pharoah's cowardice (unlike his father he had never witnessed battle up close and personal) at Pelisium the Egyptians probably would have won this battle and repulsed the Persians.

I'll post the next version in a few minutes.

I need some volunteers, as I don't think I'll get a lot done until the 16th. Too much work right now.

So, how about we divide this up into smaller units that can work independently. We'll discuss everything here, but I give authority to each of these work units to whoever signs up for them. They would be:

Civ Colours
The current colours are sometimes pretty awful, especially to combinations on the flag decals. Here are my suggestions, let's discuss them. The XML files to be edited for this task are

(Civilization: Background/Decal)
Carthage: Dark Brown/Yellow
Babylon: Dark Cyan/White
Lydia: Light Cyan/White
Phoenicia: Dark Orange/Black
Egypt: (default Egypt)
Scythia: Light Green/Grey
Gaul: Dark Green/Gold
Germanic Tribes: Light Grey/Dark Blue
Mycenae: (default Greece)
Hittites: Dark Purple/White
Britons: Light Red/Light Orange
Media: (default Persia)
Kolchis: Dark Grey/Gold
Etruria: -- will be deleted anyway
Persia: Dark Blue ("Lapislazuli")/Gold
Rome: (Dark Red/Gold)
Getae: Light Brown/Light Green
Iberia: Light Orange/Dark Red

Hmm... this is just from the top of my mind without any historical considerations (well, some, for Persia or Rome for example).

Flag Decals

The following files need to be modified:

There is a DDS converter in the utilities programs forum here on CFC.

We need flag decals for:
- Iberia (vulture)
- Getae (wolf)
- Germanic Tribes (bear paw?)
- Goths (elk head)
- Kolchis (no clue, a golden fleece?!?)
- Britons (how about a simplified green man?)
- Scythians (horse?)
- Lydia (how about three coins?)

Tech Tree
Well, someone to work out the tech tree, maybe from the one that I have suggested. I think this needs a lot of discussion and mainly testing...

Map
The resource placement needs to be edited a bit. Elephants for Carthage, for example. Maybe a gold resource for Egypt and Lydia? More forests in Gaul and Spain. I will email the original map file (either individual bmp's or one psd) to whoever sings up.

For XML editing, I suggest downloading XML Spy Professional or Enterprise edition (free trial available on the website).

thamis said:

I haven't updated for a while. Just to let you know on the progress:

I'm very busy writing an essay on nuclear weapons strategy of the Eisenhower administration (a more interesting topic than one might think, which made me think that I should do a Cold War scenario... ), so that's my priority now.

BUT: I have been to the King's College Library today (great source for history stuff) and dug up some ancient atlas books from 1901 or so and got some more inspirations for civs and cities, which will flow into TAM one day or another. Also, I've been looking into potential flag decals and found some good stuff.

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As a consumate Leftist I must say that I have the utmost respect and admiration for the policies of both Eisenhower and believe or not Nixon. Both of them helped in keeping the nuclear genie well bottled. I would love a cold war scenario!

Updated to next version 0.8.

Karhgath said:

Actually, no Nubia. I've done the map so that the sahara is, mostly, cut out of the map. I didn't want a big map, so I had to cut somewhere. Here's the height map:

Click to expand...

Hopefully you will be able to include Nubia soon, as they were more involved in the TAM environment then lets say the Britons or some other northern states.

Ankenaton said:

As a consumate Leftist I must say that I have the utmost respect and admiration for the policies of both Eisenhower and believe or not Nixon. Both of them helped in keeping the nuclear genie well bottled. I would love a cold war scenario!

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Their policies behind the public's back were less peaceful than you might think... Eisenhower was seriously convinced that the "evil commies" were to attack the US by 1961 or 1963 ("at the very latest"). He really planned to nuke all of Russia in that case (killing at least 35 million people within an instant)... Throughout the 50s, strategic thinking was still very old-school (Clausewitzian) in believing that there was no victory but destruction of the enemy's possibility to resist, and thus no war but toal war.

In addition, Curtis LeMay, commander of the Strategic Air Command (the guys who got the bomb) had his "private war plan", which meant that he always had bombers in the air near Russia, ready to deliver a hundred megatons or so.

Dr. Strangelove wasn't really that far-fetched...

I hear you...Curtis LeMay was a real creep class A nut job. I guess what I was trying to get across was that their public policies were much less openly hawkish than some other presidents. However when it all comes down to it, they were and all are ready to let the megatonage fly! I believe that most if not all of the ruling classes throughout history are Malthusians at heart. Whats a few less hundred million or so anyway...as that particular mindset goes. I really enjoy reading your essays...your dissertation was top notch. Ciao for now.