Seriously.. ow they fix overflow

J

jac7_98

Chieftain
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Oct 24, 2014
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5
"EXPLOITS

Fixed tech overflow bug that could allow a user to get free tech each turn for multiple turns. The size of the maximum allowable science overflow is now set at 5 turns of science (about the same as a unmodified research agreement) OR the unmodified cost of the last tech researched, whichever is larger. AI also understands this adjustment."


I'm not complaining that this got fixed, but this went up on the forums over a year and a half ago... now it get fixed when there is a new game out. What? Am I missing something?
 
What exactly was the tech overflow bug anyway? In all my years playing Civ 5, I don't think I've ever used it, deliberately or accidentally.

Unless it's referring to the way excess science from the last tech can be used on the next tech? I don't think so. All that excess science would go to waste, especially if you bulbed a GS. And I just researched two techs in a row by bulbing one GS (although they were researched on consecutive turns). So it's not that. What is the bug then?
 
LoneRebel said:
What exactly was the tech overflow bug anyway? In all my years playing Civ 5, I don't think I've ever used it, deliberately or accidentally.

Unless it's referring to the way excess science from the last tech can be used on the next tech? I don't think so. All that excess science would go to waste, especially if you bulbed a GS. And I just researched two techs in a row by bulbing one GS (although they were researched on consecutive turns). So it's not that. What is the bug then?
Click to expand...

No, the overflow from normally completing a tech (or GS) doesn't go to waste in Civ V but went directly to whichever tech you picked next. Now RA had the habit of being assigned a random tech you were able to research if you didn't remember to chain it.

That consecutive thing in some circumstances actually is the exploit (if someone else you know already has the tech there's a discount. It's even bigger if the world council has adopted the resolution boosting it.)

I think I did that once (actually forced to due to timing of when a RA and GS came due vs which techs were available to choose from)
 
Sorry for my slow comprehension; I'm still not seeing the bug. The only thing that looks like a bug there is the way RAs excess beakers go to random techs instead of you being prompted to choose.

Everything you described is a known game mechanic (the tech discount if known civs have already researched it, the scholars in residence resolution, etc.) What am I missing?

Was this the kind of bug where you actually got more beakers than you were supposed to get? As in, more science effectively appearing from thin air?
 
It was a bug that basically let you choose way more techs than you could actually afford to buy with the science bonus you just received as long as each tech you picked cost less than your overflow. The overflow would then build and build with each tech that didnt consume all of it, eventually sending you soaring up the tech tree.

Specifically, the strategy to exploit this was to ignore a big portion of the tech tree (all the low cost techs) and when you got a huge amount of overflow from a Great Scientist, intentionally pick techs that cost one turn. The "left over" science would accumulate in your overflow and gradually get bigger and bigger until you ran out of techs you couldn't grab in one turn.
 
See this thread (http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=517970) for a description of the exploit. Moriarte did a video of it (think the link is in that thread). This was seriously broken, and I'm glad Firaxis has fixed it, although we will have to see whether their fix (as described) requires changes to ordinary GS bulbing strategies at the end of the game.
 
The main change needed to GS chain bulbing would be avoiding using the GS when you had nothing left to research but a chain of cheap techs at the time. But all the human has to do to avoid losing the beakers in such a situation is wait a few turns to unblock more expensive techs.
 
joncnunn said:
The main chain needed to GS bulbing would be avoiding using the GS when you had nothing left to research but a chain of cheap techs at the time. But all the human has to do to avoid losing the beakers in such a situation is wait a few turns to unblock more expensive techs.
Click to expand...

or toss a few turns into getting rid of the early low beaker techs before you start GS chaining.
 
so now you want to bulb with at least 3 turns left on the current tech if the tech takes less than 5 turns?
 
Barbbb said:
so now you want to bulb with at least 3 turns left on the current tech if the tech takes less than 5 turns?
Click to expand...

The exact thresholds will depend upon the exact current strength of your GS (your science rate may have changed during the previous 8 turns in which case its current strength won't exactly be 8 times that of your previous turn.

But you can generally avoid all those problems by simply refraining from bulbing if doing so right now would overflow into a planned back fill tech.
 
I'm traveling, so I haven't had a chance to test, but I would be concerned that the 5 turns of overflow limitation might apply whether or not you have cheap techs left and have or haven't passed Scholars in Residence. If you bulb 6 or 7 GSs all at once late in the game, you will generate many, many turns of overflow. Does this fix limit all overflow to 5 turns? If so, that is a nerf to the "save all GSs and bulb all at once" strategy.
 
If I understand correctly, the main issue was that the modifiers were applied before considering how much of this turn's science is actually going into the tech that's eligible for the modifiers.

Say, 3000 science from using GS, going into a tech that costs 100, and has a 30% (or something like that) bonus from being discovered by all other players.

The 30% should apply to the 100, removing 77 (77 * 1.3 = 100) from your total science. The other 2923 should go into next turn.

Instead, the 30% is applied to the whole 3000.

If I'm not misinterpreting something, then the patch doesn't actually fix this and is just an idiotic band-aid to limit how much you can abuse this, not outright remove the abuse.




The other issue was that scholars in residence applied twice, with the reduction in tech cost, AND then the multiplier. Correct?
 
Browd said:
I'm traveling, so I haven't had a chance to test, but I would be concerned that the 5 turns of overflow limitation might apply whether or not you have cheap techs left and have or haven't passed Scholars in Residence. If you bulb 6 or 7 GSs all at once late in the game, you will generate many, many turns of overflow. Does this fix limit all overflow to 5 turns? If so, that is a nerf to the "save all GSs and bulb all at once" strategy.
Click to expand...

Bulbing several GS all at once (as in same turn), is actually the other main thing that is blocked by this limit.
To avoid hiting the limit, you'll need to spread them out (like only 1 or 2 GS bulbed per turn depending on cost of the techs being researched)
 
Interesting analysis from some of the people that knew about it. I remember being shocked when I first saw the first thread that described it. Sounds like this isn't a real fix, but a lazy way to minimize overflow. Does it seem like now you'd be punished for bulbing with early game techs left over? Like when you don't bother to research sailing...
 
Does Civ5 have the 20% (forgot exact value) discount per extra pre-requisite tech mechanic? That was abused fairly heftily in Civ4 to make things really cheap iirc.
 
Imperial Archon said:
Does Civ5 have the 20% (forgot exact value) discount per extra pre-requisite tech mechanic? That was abused fairly heftily in Civ4 to make things really cheap iirc.
Click to expand...

There's no such thing as an "extra preqeq" or an optional prereq in Civ V, all preqs are required. So that's not a discount.
That 20% number though was kept as the default discount if any other civ you know about has already discovered the tech. (Increased in BNW with a World Council Resolution)
 
Instead of fixing it correctly by modifying how bonuses to science are applied they took the lazy way out. They had to simply make sure science modifiers were not compounded beyond the cost of the tech itself. Instead they simply capped overflow (per the description) which means that now while the bug is fixed you have to make sure overflows due to GS bulbs do not exceed this limit.

And it took a year to come up with this "fix".

And don't get me started on the tiny attempt they did with balance. Better than nothing but somewhat still pathetic.
 
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