Mod-Modders Guide to Fall Further

No easy way to control where the barbarians head to and keep too many from heading to a single location. With the next patch you can control the limitation on spawned stack sizes if you want to try that out though.

Any idea when the next patch is being released?

Valkrionn said:

Federation could be City States, with a number of vassals.

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No, in a federation every member should have the same rights. Maybe a name that better suites a permanent alliance.

Jean Elcard said:

No, in a federation every member should have the same rights. Maybe a name that better suites a permanent alliance.

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True, I'm just trying to give you a reason to add in a number of vassals requirement... I want my empire.

I noticed that when I started a game as the Infernals instead of summoning them the usual way that I was not at peace with the demonic "barbarians." Given how all my territory would revert back to demon spawning terrain every turn, that was a big problem. I didn't last long enough to build Pax Diabolus.

I'm thinking the Infernals need to always start at peace with the other demons, and maybe even always stay at peace with them.

(Granted, I may be a couple patched behind.)

MagisterCultuum said:

I noticed that when I started a game as the Infernals instead of summoning them the usual way that I was not at peace with the demonic "barbarians." Given how all my territory would revert back to demon spawning terrain every turn, that was a big problem. I didn't last long enough to build Pax Diabolus.

I'm thinking the Infernals need to always start at peace with the other demons, and maybe even always stay at peace with them.

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Has been changed so that both Infernals and Sheaim benefit from the "AV-Demon Peace Rule". Incidentally, this makes it rather difficult for Hyborem to pull off the Basium-Switch...

Infernals are not MEANT to be in the game from turn 1. I don't go out of my way to block them from the Civ Selector because it is sometimes useful to have them available for debugging reasons. But they have such a giant advantage from the start of the game due to all the free buildings that I personally think not having peace with the demons would be a nice counter-balance.

@ Vehem or Xienwolf:

Im wanting to start remaking the warhammer mod from scratch using Fall Further as a base for the excelent new content you guys have added. when do you think the most stable version will be out (ie do you forsee many more patches to be released in the future)? also, will i be wasting my time remaking the entire mod from scratch or is there an easyer way to add all the Fall Further stuff to Warhammer (i suspect no).

and finally, any advice in how to proceed with this task? im not too sure where to start. should i start with civs, or python, or religions???

thanks in advance!

It really takes a different mental framework to build a mod which uses our added features instead of the standard python workarounds, and to think in terms of promotion application instead of event use, or adding tags to other items which can be prereqs for promotions instead. So I do not think that a ground-up rework would be a bad idea, but I do think you might benefit from first seeing which of your current mechanics can be moved to our new framework and practicing at re-writing them (which is basically a ground-up rewrite with a compare afterward... so I guess I didn't say much...)


As for stability: Right now the only major issue is with loading a game after having played for a while. This is almost 100% due to the extra Barbarian factions. Thus far, no ideas on precisely where it is happening, so no clue when it'll be fixed. But I do know that there are still a LOT of features on the plate for adding to the game, so as soon as we have more time and have things any more stable (or are convinced we cannot find better stability anytime soon), we will probably add something new and make it once more highly unstable


All in all, now is a good time to grab the mod I bet. If you don't want to use the multiple Barbarian factions, I would advise that you remove them from the DLL and see if it makes you more stable (in other words: if you don't have PLANS for extra barbarians, don't make any ) Also worth noting that the extra Barbarians currently have issues with properly settling cities (citybar doesn't display properly). Works fine for us since the extra 2 aren't allowed to have cities anyway.

So, FF guys, I have a laundry list of questions for you regarding my old issue with making the Usurper trait turn religious units into Arcane ones. I'm going to make this happen or collapse in modding stupor.

Is there any easy way to, through Python, see if a unit has a certain promotion and set its UnitCombat there, and if it works, would it work BETTER than having the promotion set the UnitCombat itself, since no matter what Python would see the unit having that promotion and try to slap it into behaving?

Failing that, is there a way to set a Unique Unit list for a leader as opposed to a Civ, since the leader in question can be in command of multiple civilizations?

Failing THAT, how difficult would it be to set a Python event that reads "leadertrait: Usurper" and pulls a clone of the unit with the same stats, but with Arcane Unitcombat? (I realize this would probably mean adding a lot of cloned units...)

I don't think that setUnitCombat is exposed to python, so you'd need to mod the DLL for any of those to work, except the last one I suppose, which is pretty cludgy.


I have a feeling next patch is fairly soonish, we've added and tweaked a few things, to include unbreaking Hell Terrain (which is what might lead to a soonish patch). Once the new patch is out your promotion to switch unitcombat will work perfectly fine.

*ahem*

Woooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooot. Thank you, Xien. That's what's been holding me back from getting Usurper up like I wanted, the inability to add that promotion swapping thing. Now I just have to not...go...insane...while...waiting...

Oh wait, I'll just go play Fall Further now.

It really takes a different mental framework to build a mod which uses our added features instead of the standard python workarounds, and to think in terms of promotion application instead of event use, or adding tags to other items which can be prereqs for promotions instead. So I do not think that a ground-up rework would be a bad idea, but I do think you might benefit from first seeing which of your current mechanics can be moved to our new framework and practicing at re-writing them (which is basically a ground-up rewrite with a compare afterward... so I guess I didn't say much...)


As for stability: Right now the only major issue is with loading a game after having played for a while. This is almost 100% due to the extra Barbarian factions. Thus far, no ideas on precisely where it is happening, so no clue when it'll be fixed. But I do know that there are still a LOT of features on the plate for adding to the game, so as soon as we have more time and have things any more stable (or are convinced we cannot find better stability anytime soon), we will probably add something new and make it once more highly unstable


All in all, now is a good time to grab the mod I bet. If you don't want to use the multiple Barbarian factions, I would advise that you remove them from the DLL and see if it makes you more stable (in other words: if you don't have PLANS for extra barbarians, don't make any ) Also worth noting that the extra Barbarians currently have issues with properly settling cities (citybar doesn't display properly). Works fine for us since the extra 2 aren't allowed to have cities anyway.

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great thanks

the multiple barbarian thing is actually one of our more desired features, so i think ill wait a couple more weeks to see if you can manage to sort it out (which i know you guys will )

is there any chance that you could tell me what are the new features you still plan to add? it would save me reworking it twice if i know you will adda feature that would be useful for Warhammer

It is a giant list, many of which might not see the light of day. Tons of which aren't written down anywhere. Some of which were accidentally leaked with our sourcecode (in a huge rambling file which contains things from when I first opened the DLL still).

I'll PM you with some of the larger and more likely items. I don't like to state them publically because they might never happen and people might get disappointed. Or they might happen but be in a much altered state by final product.

But mostly, few will happen before the start of the next schoolyear most likely. Or at least, not by my hands (And Vehem is stuck on Balancing/Tweaking/Refining since he has the unfortunate position of being in charge of the mod, and Jean is likely to be working on Revolutions. So that means it's unlikely to happen by other hands too). I have to study hard for my qualifiers this summer, so my time will be consumed.

if you could PM me the more likely possible future additions id be very greatful, this would help me decide on my plan of action. by the sounds of things i will just go ahead anyway, but there is always the possibility that some new addition could be exactly what i need. (oviously you have my word not to leak any of what you send in your PM)

thanks again!

When setting PromotionDegradesTo in a promotion, will the target promotion show up no matter how the master promotion is removed, or only if it degrades naturally?

My chief question is if I set the master promotion to "Must Maintain" and the unit no longer meets the requirements, will the promotion it's set to degrade to instantly appear on the unit, or will the cycle just be broken? (I'm hoping the cycle breaks, then I can use it for education-type-promotions, requiring the unit to remain in the city to earn the second promotion but giving the player the option to leave early if necessary.)

Iceciro said:

When setting PromotionDegradesTo in a promotion, will the target promotion show up no matter how the master promotion is removed, or only if it degrades naturally?

My chief question is if I set the master promotion to "Must Maintain" and the unit no longer meets the requirements, will the promotion it's set to degrade to instantly appear on the unit, or will the cycle just be broken? (I'm hoping the cycle breaks, then I can use it for education-type-promotions, requiring the unit to remain in the city to earn the second promotion but giving the player the option to leave early if necessary.)

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It should degrade to the second promotion if the first is removed in anyway.

If I'm understanding correctly though, you're looking for;

"LearningPromotion degrades to LearntPromotion and you want both to be in the city?"

Assuming LearntPromotion is permanent, then...

LearningPromotion (requires City, mustMaintain, degrades to GraduatePromotion)
GraduatePromotion (requires City, mustMaintain, effectPromotion (which makes it invisible and not reported in text))
LearntPromotion (autoAcquire, requires GraduatePromotion, requires City)

... should do it. The LearningPromotion is lost when you leave the city, degrades into graduate which is lost straight away if not in a city. LearntPromotion is never acquired as you were never both in the city and had the graduate promotion.

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Won't work for existing promotions (as you need to change the requirements for LearntPromotion - which would be bad for things like Combat) - but would for any new ones. Not sure what the goal is (or if this is even close to it) - but PromotionUpgradesTo and PromotionUpgradeTime (same behaviour, but only triggered by the duration running out) does sound like a good idea for a future addition.

I've gotten lazy and just given the learning promotions a -10 to movement range, forcing the unit to stay in the city until it's finished "learning".

But the way you've explained out there is pretty interesting too. I may try that, I think it's a slightly more complicated but far better way of handling it.
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New question: Can you change a unit's religion through a spell or ability?
And if so, as I understand it, do correct me if I'm wrong, the high level religious spells are tied to Divine -> Channeling II/III -> Unit has Religion. Thus a Prior who had been swapped through an ability to say, Octopus Overlords religion would be able to cast Tsunami and Summon Kraken?

Yes, religious spells rely on religion of the unit. I am reasonably certain you can change a unit's religion through python, but nothing has been added directly to the XML to control it so far.

Hmmm. Allright, I can work with that, I think...

Next question! Boy I hope I'm not driving the modmod team nuts here >_>

Is there any way to control a specific unit being built being reliant on a leadertrait, or will I need to make a building that relies on the trait, then make the unit rely on the building? I notice that's how the Scions did it, but I want to make a unit that only upgrades from another unit, so the building thing isn't going to work as well.