Opening Build Order . . . (yes, yes I know, there is no "one" . . . )

I've played Civ for a *long* time and so I know the standard answer of "there is no one build order, you have to adapt to your surroundings, civ proximity, etc. etc.", and that's true to an extent.

I play random Civ Immortal and I find that in 80% of situations I have to follow the same build order to have a chance at an optimal start, based entirely on the Liberty tree. I generally research the same path -> Liberty -> +1 Prod -> Free Settler -> Free Worker.

My build order is generally Monument, Shrine, Worker and then either a) An archer if I have managed the tech and there are other civs nearby b) A worker for my 1st/2nd City if there's no other civ around and no deer/wheat/bananas or c) if there are 2+ deer/wheat/bananas, I'll go granary.

Following any of the other social polices, *especially honor* sets me too far behind the other civs. Is this everyone else's experience who also plays at this level or am I missing something?

Like I said, there are always exceptions, like if I'm playing India or what not. But even when I play Aztecs - what would seem to be the perfect Civ for an Honor social policy, I find it still falls short of liberty to Free Settler.

I'd love to be shown that I'm not playing optimally, it would spice up the game for me some.

You don't build scouts?

Nah, the lost time on getting the culture/faith flowing isn't worth it in my opinion (I forgot to mention I also play small continents generally). If I played massive land maps I might change the build order to include scouts. But at immortal a scout might grab you one extra ruin (revealing a crude map of the nearby area!), before the AI gobbles them all up with their unit advantage.

I play with about you difficulty or even diety and what I useally do is to go to war early. You may have a point in that going honor slows you down but you also have to consider that honor may also slow the enemy down.

I play on immortal and I do scout then down payment on monument till shrines are availible then switch over to shrine. Then back to monument once complete go to Stone henge. Around this time I get the free worker and go towards free settler. I buy 3rd settler and get 3 cities in time for national college + fast buy one library.

Also to note your anti scouting I usually get 2-3 ruins (4-5 if lucky) before they are gone. One is almost always a culture ruin.

I tend to go with: Scout, Warrior, Scout, Monument, Shrine, Warrior, Worker.

This build order allows me to have 2 exploring scouts + a warrior to hunt barbs, one warrior in town to protect the worker - the worker comes out in time to NOT sit around without orders so sometimes i put it off until calender or mining but i almost always go for writing then mining then calendar - worker is usually timed to finish after calendar.

Also, i skip the monument if i am on a higher difficulty and instead i go for archery instead of mining and build 2 archers then worker - at the end, instead of warrior + scout.

At this point, i look for 3 things: One production spot, two growth spots, one victim. Then i denounce my victim to see how the other AI react to it, start trading to build alliance bloc and look to settle my cities. I send my settlers outward then "backfill later".

This lets me have 3 good spots and i pump archers and shrines then more archers. My goal is to get the AI i denounced to war me so i can peg down units, level up my archers, and sue for favorable peace terms.

Scouts are invaluable especially at the higher difficulty levels. Meeting other Civs will allow you to reduce the cost of early techs, sell them open borders (if you/they do not have a religion), engage in future research agreements and sell off bonus luxuries ASAP.

It is likely to get deprived of ruins on land maps as the OP states however that does not warrant not trying. Scouting early will also let you know which land you want to grab/REX into.

My personal build order is a Scout1 -> Scout2/Worker1/Monument -> Shrine(often switch over)/Monument(finish) -> Library -> National College/Settler(If I can buy a second library) and so on.

The above build order is still highly variable. Here are some exceptions.
1. I go for the Great Library on an isolated start.
2. The Great Lighthouse on a water start (If I can/ And my capital can benefit from a lighthouse)
3. Petra for a desert city/ Possibly one of the most amazing new wonders in my opinion.

I do find myself taking Liberty more often than not as a start. Then again I don't usually play culturally so I shop around the trees for what I like/need the most and take it as it comes. Note: Liberty is truly useful only if you plan on making above 4 cities.

Once I get a hold of better hardware, I'll go on ahead and try to play four tall cities with Tradition. Looking at the threads, 4 cities isn't "wide" enough to warrant Liberty as your first SP. However, if you bumrush an AI civ early on, Liberty might be a great way to go, so you can create an empire of puppets.

As for build order, I do:

Scout -> Monument -> Switch to Shrine -> Finish Monument

Then what ever first comes. If I start with calendar luxes, I go Calendar for the Stonehenge. If not, I go writing for the GL slingshot to Philosophy. I also kidnap a CS worker if I have a Maritime/Culture/Faith CS near me (culture, mostly), since other than quests, you can't gain a lot of influence to get their benefits, so might as well make them angry and wait the anger to fizzle out.

Well, liberty seems idd very strong comparing with tradition and honor. Immortal is my next step, since im playin @ emperor atm, so i can't tell for sure. However, i suppose that difficuly doesnt change much as far as the social policy strategy.

My opinion is that the build order and ur starting social policy, is highly depended on ur civ and ur overall strategy.. Who needs fast settlers and workers (liberty) when u play the huns and go for some fast captured workers and cities(honour) with those mighty battering rams ;DD

TheGreatImber said:

Note: Liberty is truly useful only if you plan on making above 4 cities.

Click to expand...

Well, what if the goal was to put out 4 cities very quickly? I had a game where I was the Celts and there were plenty of forested sites with tons of stone.

SS-18 ICBM said:

Well, what if the goal was to put out 4 cities very quickly? I had a game where I was the Celts and there were plenty of forested sites with tons of stone.

Click to expand...

There is a definite case to use Liberty to get four cities out immediately, yet there is the importance to consider how much better you would still be served the Tradition tree. I feel too many players including myself are easily blindsided by the advantages of the free settler and reduced build time of settlers in the Liberty tree. But when you considered the 4 free Aqueducts = Time spent on building 4 settlers. If you use the 4 culture buildings on Opera Houses = 8 settlers building time. Therefore, the Tradition tree has some rather underrated features.

Vexus said:

I've played Civ for a *long* time and so I know the standard answer of "there is no one build order, you have to adapt to your surroundings, civ proximity, etc. etc.", and that's true to an extent.

I play random Civ Immortal and I find that in 80% of situations I have to follow the same build order to have a chance at an optimal start, based entirely on the Liberty tree. I generally research the same path -> Liberty -> +1 Prod -> Free Settler -> Free Worker.

My build order is generally Monument, Shrine, Worker and then either a) An archer if I have managed the tech and there are other civs nearby b) A worker for my 1st/2nd City if there's no other civ around and no deer/wheat/bananas or c) if there are 2+ deer/wheat/bananas, I'll go granary.

Following any of the other social polices, *especially honor* sets me too far behind the other civs. Is this everyone else's experience who also plays at this level or am I missing something?

Like I said, there are always exceptions, like if I'm playing India or what not. But even when I play Aztecs - what would seem to be the perfect Civ for an Honor social policy, I find it still falls short of liberty to Free Settler.

I'd love to be shown that I'm not playing optimally, it would spice up the game for me some.

Click to expand...

Go tradition, and never put a monument in your initial build queue again. Everything after that is basically going to come eight turns earlier than you're used to. You can surely build/buy a worker faster than you would have gotten it with liberty at that point.

go Spain.
Save at start. If there is coral reef near you then reload to start, relocate capital beside coral reef.
Buy tiles to work coral reef - you will 1000g for doing this.

Each coral tile ( there are 2 ) gives you 4 food, 2 hammer, 4 science.

You can buy 2 settlers as soon as your pop hits 2, or granary etc.

Then cry when one or two of the diety civ's your up against get a better start, and although you've played the perfect game, you still lose

My opening build: Monument, Worker, Scout, (Warrior) Settler. I focus on playing the land first for an early start. I would freak if I built a scout first and wasn't able to build the land.
I rarely never switch buildings that early in the game, however.

My research order, however, is very determined on the land, usually start working on the technology based on what territorial start is, for an example, if I have some marble, stone and cow, and spices on 1 border pop, I'll go Mining, Animal Husbandry, Pottery, Masonry, then finally Calender.

My culture policy is based on what civilization I'm playing as. For leaders like Alexander, Catherine, or Bismark, I'll go Honor, for Ethiopia or India, it's Tradition, otherwise, it's Liberty. I usually finish a single policy line first before going to the next, except for special reasons.

Unless I'm going cultural, I don't build wonders until Classical or Medieval.

I think I am one of the few players who use both Tradition and Liberty on a regular basis. I typically open with this:

Tradition > Liberty > Bonus +1 > free settler > free worker

Sometimes I will take the bonus to building wonders from Tradition early in the game depending on conditions. I save the four free culture buildings for Opera Houses and finish Tradition later than Liberty. I find that the bonus growth in the later techs is better a little later when I have more happiness to spare.

I like to build and develop four core cities. I get a free settler from Liberty, I buy one for my third city, and I build the forth after my capital has grown quite a bit.

I generally do not build a worker at all. I get a free worker from Liberty and build the Pyramids in my capital for two more workers. If I lose the race for the Pyramids (not often since the AI doesn't seem to prioritize it), I will build one worker. I generally find that warring nets me all the additional workers I ever need and find myself deleting workers in most games despite never having built one.

I like my first two cities to get early wonders. The capital I specialize with GE focused points and the second goes for GS points. On Immortal, it is difficult to get Stonehenge in my capital, but I generally manage on Monarch or below. The second city builds the Great Library and the National College as early as possible. I try to settle this city next to a mountain to ensure that my science center can build an Observatory later in the game.

My initial build in the capital is generally Monument > Library > Stonehenge > Pyramids. I will build one or two units (or sometimes a shrine) in between the Monument and Library depending on the and in my capital which varies growth and build times from game to game and also in reaction to which AIs I have met and how close they are.

Tradition is a good starting tree to work on early in the game, then a switch to Liberty will be better to finish as you expand.

I like it the other way around. I open Tradition to get the +3 first thing (not a waste of policy since I plan to go back later). I then get Liberty to help with early expansion and development (+1 , free settler, free worker all essential early in the game). I go back to Tradition later so that I can get Opera Houses instead of Monuments for free and the growth in the late Classical Era when I have four cities down and to spare for the extra population. If I were to go straight for Tradition, these last two points would not out as well.

The free great person for Liberty finisher is almost always a GE to rush one of the early wonders. Occasionally (especially on Immortal or Deity games where the AI seems to beat me to the wonders I'm after and have a tech lead) I will use a GS to build an early Academy. I have recently learned that G&K no longer provide a "free" great person, but that the Liberty finisher increases the cost of future great people. I am going to experiment with putting off the Liberty finisher until a GE is born in my capital to see if I can get two early on.

Scout, scout, warrior/archer, settler. Ancient ruins are too valuable to miss out on because you built an early monument or something. When settler is done immediately forward settle the ai and cut them off from your territory. I also kill any other civs scouts whenever possible. The ruins are mine!! Never build a worker in the early game. steal them from other civs or city states, get your free one from liberty, and/or two free ones plus faster improvement from the pyramids. Even on deity getting the pyramids is easy.