Inventions (general aspects)

I think we should clarify / agree on some basic aspects of "Inventions" and then get specific ? :)

The general ascpect I think we should all agree to:

1. Inventions is supposed to be an addition and not a feature that will totally dominate the mod.

-> Nothing that will cripple AI
-> Small Bonusses per Invention (Balancing !)
-> Unlocking things only in uncritical cases (e.g. with a few ships or buildings without production line or higher levels of building)

2. The focus is to implement this with reasonable efforts and risks.

-> Functionality will only be implemented if really needed (meaning with several inventions)
-> Do we really need graphical changes ? (I still feel very uncomfortable with this.)
-> Let us keep the bonusses that inventions give simple to implement

3. Balance of historical aspects and gameplay

-> Historical correctness creates atmosphere so we should not use fictional inventions
-> Inventions that are in the time frame of 15th to 18th (until year 1799) century are ok
-> "Commonness" should not totally limit us, since we are playing alternative history
-> Late inventions considering their actually "historical time" should be in the back of the tech-trees


Then let us get specific:

Let us collect max 15 Inventions for each of the 5 Categories with their according Bonus.
And let us do this here in the Forum.
Then we will start discussing these.

I think in the end we will get to a list that is

A) Historically ok
B) Balanced
C) Implementable with low risks and efforts

Before we get specific, we will only continue to have a lot of useless discussions ...
(We have wasted way too much time talking about technical aspect before even really knowing what we want to do.)

What we have done on this topic until now is still miles away from what I would consider a concept. :(

@orlanth:
Would you please try to create a list to start with ? :thumbsup:
(Please include the Bonusses that should be given.)

@team and community:
Please let orlanth finish his first suggestion, before discussing / commenting the single inventions. :thumbsup:
 
@orlanth:
Would you please try to create a list to start with ?
(Please include the Bonusses that should be given.)

@team and community:
Please let orlanth finish his first suggestion, before discussing / commenting the single inventions.

I've already posted lists of invention types for each category, but I think that the majority of those could be vetoed for historical reasons and not make it into the mod. Colonialfan is working on creating a revised smaller tree of invention names using this and putting them in the Excel template in a correct historical order, I'll wait a final list of approved invention names that I can be sure won't be vetoed based on historical reasons, and then I will then create a proposed set of bonuses for those which we can then further discuss. I'm not upset if many of my first suggestions had to be removed based on history, and I'm 100% ok with a small set of inventions, as few as 4 or 6 per Category if needed, but I want to get a final list of historically approved invention names that we can be sure won't be vetoed based on history, and we can then assign some bonuses to them and discuss the best strategic balancing of those. I wouldn't want to assign specific Bonuses to my entire initial suggested set of inventions in advance, and then have many of them removed or moved around later for historical reasons unrelated to strategic balance, this could obviously change how Bonuses needed to be planned & assigned for the entire set.
 
I'll start sifting through the techs we have for each of the 5 catergories at the weekend and put them into some form of historical context. I should be able to have a rough list for discussion by the beginning of next week.
 
Hi guys sorry for the delay, I've been sick for a few days:vomit:

Anyway, I've taken a look at the list Orlanth provided and made a few tweeks that I will try to explain as I go along.

For the Economic tech tree I split it in two, Industrial and Financial, it seemed to make sense to me. I also tried to link together techs that would follow each other historically.

ECONOMIC

Industrial
Land Enclosures - Crop Rotation - Land Drainage (Agricultural)
Improved Animal Husbandry - Selective Breeding (Animal)
Flying Shuttle - Spinning Jenny - Spinning Mule - Power Loom (Textile oriented)
Coke Blast Furnace - Puddling Furnace - Steel Tempering (Metal production related)
Moldboard Plow - Seed Planting Drill - Threshing Machine (Agricultural machine related)

Water Mills? (Did not know what to do with this one)

Financial
Joint Stock Companies - Merchant Banking
Laissez-Faire Economics
Mercantilism
Classical Economics

I found it pretty hard to link any of the financial things as they all propose different methods.


For the military section I combined both the land and naval techs.

MILITARY

Infantry Formations - Cavalry Formations - Light Infantry Doctrines (Tactical related)
Fire by Rank - Platoon Firing - Drill School - Military Academy (School of soldier)
Grape Shot- Flintlock Cannon - Carronades (Artillery related)
Dead Reckoning - Telescopes - Sextants (Navigational related)
Citrus and Sauerkraut - Naval Medicine (Medical)
Naval Architecture - Top Gallants - Timber Seasoning - Copper-bottom Hulls (tech related)


The social catergory is the one I struggled the most with. The concepts are very different from one another and it is hard to find much to link them

SOCIAL

Public Education
Empiricism
Secular Humanism
Deism
Universities
Nationalism
Puritan Ethics (Protestant work ethic)
Counterreformation (Wouldn't you need the Reformation as well?)
Evangelism
Diplomacy
Money lending

Would we use these as well?

Renaissance?
Enlightenment?
Agrarian Revolution?
Industrial Revolution?

For the native techs I left that alone although I thought we could add something on irrigation. The Inca had an advanced system of irrigation with the system of step allotments that they employed in growing their crops.

Hats off to orlanth :hatsoff: for providing such a comprehensive list.

Please feel free to give feedback, make changes, etc., etc.
 
Ok, I finally created an Excel template of possible inventions and bonuses in the Inventions.xls file in the transfer folder; please take a look and fill in your own edits or suggestions in another Excel file on SVN for others to see. I tried to really limit the number of inventions and make them have very modest effects, it was a bit hard to come up with many unique bonuses while not letting many things be unlockable by them; I hope that didnt make them too boring or limited.

I think that the existing system of Kailric's modcomp can be used to start to enable some Religion features without requiring much coding and redevelopment. Because civs can each start with a unique set of knowledge, nations can be set to start with Catholicism or Protestantism as an untradable/unresearchable knowledge with game effects that can be adjusted as you like. (In my template, Catholic religious buildings can get some extra crosses due to greater population of Catholics, Protestant ones generate some Hammers from the "Protestant work ethic", and each has a relations bonus with nations sharing the same religion). Researching Puritan Ethics or Counterreformation can add a slightly amplified version of this bonus.
 
@orlanth:

First of all thanks for the work you put into this. :goodjob:

Some comments:

1. Your concept introduce some imbalance between the Yields. :(
(I have put so much effort to get the Yields balanced considering Terrains, Features, Founding Fathers ...)

Your inventions give bonusses to a few yields:
Fur, Sugar, Valuable Wood, ...

But what about all the other yields:
Coffee, Cocoa, Cotton, Tobacco, ...

2. Some bonusses of the inventions are critical

Examples:
Unlocks Fluyt -> Fluyt is a Starting Unit of the Dutch !
Unlocks Rangers -> Rangers are already only given by rare DLL-Events. Do we want to make them even more rare ?

Allows choping Jungle -> Very bad for AI to deny it to chop Jungle without the Invention

3. Some inventions conflict with some concepts / implementations as I had planned
(Which is not necessarily a big problem, I would just have to change a lot of my technical concepts.)

Examples:
Catholicism and Protetstantism
-> I would see them as Traits and not as Inventions / Knowledge. :dunno:

4. Other inventions consider features we do not yet have and do not know when we will implement

Examples:
Large Farms

-----------

My main problem with the current concept:
It is unbalanced. :dunno:

A) If we start improving Yields with Inventions we must do it for all (or almost all) Yields.
B) If we unlock highest level of Production Buildings with Inventions, we must do it for all (or almost all) of them.
C) If we start unlocking 2nd Level Improvements, we must do it for all of (or almost all) 2nd Level Improvements.
...

Otherwise we will completely unbalance the productionlines and the mod.
And that is a real nogo for me. :(

----------

The feature will not necessarily become good by having only a few inventions.
We could have a lot of them.

But we must take care of Balancing !
(If we can achieve this with a few inventions only, that is fine of course, too.)

A) Each single one not overpowered.
B) Yields / Productionlines / Economy must stay balanced.

----------

Be assured that this is just meant as constructive criticism. :thumbsup:
I will also need to think about this dilemma a bit ... :think:
 
Ok guys,

I have been thinking about this a bit. :)

Let us go 2 steps back.

1. Let us think a bit more in game mechanics.
(We are way still way too focussed on "famous" Inventions or Philosophical / Humanistic breakthroughs to my opinion.)

2. Let us collect the things we want to do first, before we give these Knowledges names.

3. Let us continue step by step / topic by topic.

---------

Bonus-Resources

These are the ones we have:
Spoiler :

BONUS_CORN
BONUS_POTATO
BONUS_OASIS
BONUS_FISH
BONUS_CRAB
BONUS_PEARLS
BONUS_TIMBER
BONUS_IRON
BONUS_STONE
BONUS_HORSES
BONUS_CATTLE
BONUS_SHEEP
BONUS_DEER
BONUS_BISON
BONUS_FUR
BONUS_SEA_OTTERS
BONUS_COTTON
BONUS_INDIGO
BONUS_SUGAR
BONUS_TOBACCO
BONUS_HEMP
BONUS_COCOA
BONUS_COFFEE
BONUS_SALT
BONUS_VALUABLE_WOOD
BONUS_BARLEY
BONUS_GRAPES
BONUS_RED_PEPPER
BONUS_BANANA
BONUS_COCONUT
BONUS_TURKEYS
BONUS_PUMPKIN
BONUS_MELON
BONUS_SILVER
BONUS_GOLD
BONUS_GEMS
BONUS_PEARLS_2
BONUS_MINERALS
BONUS_WHALE
BONUS_HIGH_SEA_FISH
BONUS_SEALS
BONUS_WALRUSS


Considering these Bonus-Resources, I would like to have Inventions give 2 (and not more) specific Bonusses:

A) Reveal
B) +1 to all Yields of Bonus

-------

And I want to do it for all (or almost) all of them.

Comments:

1. The Europeans did generally know really soon that Tobacco existed.
But they did not know from the beginning where it grows best.
They also did not know from the beginning how to handle it in the best way.

2. Of course the Europeans knew Cattle or Horses way before they came to the New World.
But they did not know about all the poinsonous plants or the insects (e.g. flies that carried decesases) that made good breeding almost impossible in some places.

3. Of course the Europeans knew that Lumber existed way before they came to the New World.
But they did not know which kinds of trees in the New World gave the best lumber.

4. Of course the Europeans knew that Gold, Silver or Ore existed.
But they were not used to the Geology and the Terrains of the New World.
Thus they did not know where the best places to search for these materials were.

5. Of course the Europeans knew Fish.
But when they arrived in the New World they knew basically nothing about the seasonal bevahiour of the Fish there.

6. And of course, while the decades passed, there was new knowledge gained in Europe as well.
(Breeding, Planting, Mining, Cutting Wood, ...)

-----------

This is the way I wanted to be headind for.
You will not find "Famous Inventions" in history books for these things.
That is why I was calling the feature "Knowledge" right away.

But I am convinced, that the colonists had to learn a lot after arriving in the New World.

---------

Let us forget about names of Inventions for now.
Pleas let us focus again on what we need to do to create a good and balanced feature. :thumbsup:
 
Next Topic. :)

Improvements

These are the ones we have:

Spoiler :

IMPROVEMENT_FARM
IMPROVEMENT_LODGE
IMPROVEMENT_MINE
IMPROVEMENT_QUARRY
IMPROVEMENT_VINEYARD
IMPROVEMENT_COLLECTORS_POST
IMPROVEMENT_PLANTATION
IMPROVEMENT_COCOA_PLANTATION
IMPROVEMENT_TRAPPER_HUT
IMPROVEMENT_PASTURE


Considering these Improvements, I would like to have Inventions give these specific Bonusses:

A) +1 for all Yields of Improvement
B) Unlock 2nd Level Improvement <-- Which we will have to implement first, of course
C) +1 for all Yields 2nd Level Improvement (considering implementation, it is the same as A) )
D) Lowering Costs and Building Times
 
And to the next ... :)

SpecialBuildings

These are the ones we have:

Spoiler :

SPECIALBUILDING_BELLS
SPECIALBUILDING_HAMMERS
SPECIALBUILDING_MEAT
SPECIALBUILDING_COATS
SPECIALBUILDING_LEATHER
SPECIALBUILDING_CLOTH
SPECIALBUILDING_COLOURED_CLOTH
SPECIALBUILDING_BEER
SPECIALBUILDING_RUM
SPECIALBUILDING_WINE
SPECIALBUILDING_CIGARS
SPECIALBUILDING_WHALE_OIL
SPECIALBUILDING_FURNITURE
SPECIALBUILDING_TOOLS
SPECIALBUILDING_CROSSES
SPECIALBUILDING_MUSKETS
SPECIALBUILDING_HORSES
SPECIALBUILDING_DOCK
SPECIALBUILDING_WAREHOUSE
SPECIALBUILDING_SPICES
SPECIALBUILDING_TRADE
SPECIALBUILDING_TAVERN
SPECIALBUILDING_EDUCATION
SPECIALBUILDING_WALLS
SPECIALBUILDING_PRINT
SPECIALBUILDING_DEFENSE


Considering these SpecialBuildings, I would like to have Inventions give these specific Bonusses:

A) With Profession: Start Unlocking higher levels from 2nd Level Buildings
B) Without Professions: Start Unlocking from level 1 (considering technical implementation, it is the same as A) )
C) +10% Production for all Buildings in SpecialBuilding line
D) Giving extra Yield to all Buildings in SpecialBuilding line
E) Lowering required Yields (Costs) for Buildings

Edit:

Everything that could be done by using Traits is green.
 
And to the next ...

I will split UnitsClasses in 2 Sections.
Let us first take a look at Ships.

Ships

These are the ones we have:
Spoiler :

UNITCLASS_CARAVEL
UNITCLASS_FLUYT
UNITCLASS_CARRACK
UNITCLASS_CARAVELA_REDONDA
UNITCLASS_MERCHANTMAN
UNITCLASS_BRIGANTINE
UNITCLASS_GALLEON
UNITCLASS_WEST_INDIAMAN
UNITCLASS_SLOOP
UNITCLASS_PRIVATEER
UNITCLASS_SMUGGLING_SHIP <-- Not touch for now considering unlocking
UNITCLASS_CORVETTE
UNITCLASS_FRIGATE
UNITCLASS_SHIP_OF_THE_LINE
UNITCLASS_WHALING_BOAT
UNITCLASS_FISHING_BOAT


Considering these Ships, I would like to have Inventions give these specific Bonusses:

A) Unlock <--- We must take care that each European Civ has the right Invenitons from the start, because of Starting Units
B) Give free Promotions <--- With this we can do a lot !!!
C) Decrease required Yields and Costs

Edit:

Everything that could be done by using Traits is green.
 
I guess you slowly but surely get an impression, what I am talking about. :)
(I am not done yet, listing all the topics.)

This feature is a MONSTER ! :eek:
It would surely be the largest feature we would ever implement in our mod.
(It will get the whole team busy for at least a complete release.)

But I believe it would be worth the effort.
It could be a fantastic addition to this mod.

Comment:

I do not know yet, how we can package all the bonusses into single "Knowledges".
Also I am not sure, if everybody would like the outcome considering "historical authenticity".

But we must ensure balancing of our mod !
If we touch a topic (Bonus Resources, Improvements, Buildings, Ships, ...) then it is all or nothing (for that topic).

We must choose a systematic approach to this.
Otherwise we will continue to move in circles again and again.

@team:
Please give me feedback, if I should continue listing topics and their bonusses. :thumbsup:
(I don't want to put further work in this, if somebody will then give a veto to it.)
 
Ok; I am in support of what you are talking about & think that would be good for gameplay. Although it might seem like a lot, in fact each Knowledge (or perhaps we could call them Progress or Advances) could still have a relatively modest incremental effect, and effects could be combined down to a smaller number of advances, perhaps 10 to 12 per category so as to not be overwhelming. As "Advances", these historically represent the gradual development and improvement of social and economic infrastructure and capabilities of a colony over time, from a small colony that is totally not self-sufficient, to one capable of being an independent nation. (The situation currently of being able to buy/build everything right from the start is probably less historic.)

About starting units and units granted by DLL or Python events, I think the unlock only relates to ability to build or purchase more of those units, so wouldn't necessarily prevent you from getting a unit at start or by event if that's not desired.

In Kailric's modcomp each invention can also use features of the Trait system, so setting a religion using that would allow it to act as a Trait, and also allow it to unlock a few special advances unique to that religion such as Puritanism / Counterreformation.
 
I am in support of what you are talking about & think that would be good for gameplay.

Gameplay / Balance is the key factor of a good feature. :)

Although it might seem like a lot, ...

I know. :)
That is why I alwas said "This is a monster of a feature." and "We need time to create a really good concept."

... in fact each Knowledge (or perhaps we could call them Progress or Advances) could still have a relatively modest incremental effect, and effects could be combined down to a smaller number of advances, perhaps 10 to 12 per category so as to not be overwhelming.

Absolutely. :thumbsup:

I was talking about the "Bonusses of Knowledges / Advances" only.
Of course they can be grouped together in a moderate number of "Knowledges / Advances".
(Which will not be that easy though.)

From a feeling, I would say, we should aim for 15 to 20 "Knowledges / Advances" per category.

As "Advances", these historically represent the gradual development and improvement of social and economic infrastructure and capabilities of a colony over time, from a small colony that is totally not self-sufficient, to one capable of being an independent nation.

That is exactly how I feel about the feature. :)

About starting units and units granted by DLL or Python events, I think the unlock only relates to ability to build or purchase more of those units, so wouldn't necessarily prevent you from getting a unit at start or by event if that's not desired.

Well yes, we simply need to take care about this aspect. :thumbsup:
But if a nation has a unit from the start, I feel it should also be able to build it.
(We simply have to adjust the "Starting Knowledges" accordingly.)

In Kailric's modcomp each invention can also use features of the Trait system, so setting a religion using that would allow it to act as a Trait, and also allow it to unlock a few special advances unique to that religion such as Puritanism / Counterreformation.

Why not simply create "Catholicism" / "Protestantism" as Traits right away ? :dunno:

But this is a small detail.
And we are currently far away from needing to worry about small details. ;)
 
Sure, continue. So that not everything is related to yields/units/buildings, a few other features from the existing modcomp could give something for advances in the Social category to do.

+10% to Improvement upgrade rate
+10% Missionary effectiveness
+10% to worker build speed
Natives give gifts more often
+1 attitude from Natives
+1 attitude from civs with same Religion
 
So that not everything is related to yields/units/buildings, a few other features from the existing modcomp could give something for advances in the Social category to do.

Don't worry. :)
(I was simply not done yet, listing all "Topics".)
 
Orlanth wrote in post #27 above:
I think that the existing system of Kailric's modcomp can be used to start to enable some Religion features without requiring much coding and redevelopment. Because civs can each start with a unique set of knowledge, nations can be set to start with Catholicism or Protestantism as an untradable/unresearchable knowledge with game effects that can be adjusted as you like. (In my template, Catholic religious buildings can get some extra crosses due to greater population of Catholics, Protestant ones generate some Hammers from the "Protestant work ethic", and each has a relations bonus with nations sharing the same religion). Researching Puritan Ethics or Counterreformation can add a slightly amplified version of this bonus.

I really appreciate the thought that went into this, and I'd certainly like to see more use of cultural attributes such as religion. We should be mindful of the intended use of the game mechanics. Emigration from Europe due to crosses is tied directly to the historical fact that many came to the New World to avoid religious persecution at home. That's why, when a new colonist is available on the dock, it's announced that "Religious unrest in <country_name> has caused increased emigration". Actually, this was more of a factor affecting English emigration, which is modelled in the original game as the English have an advantage in getting emigrated colonists. I think we should retain this use.

For Catholic societies with larger families, that can be modelled more accurately by focusing on the benefits of food production producing new colonists in the New World. Historically, emigrants made the dangerous voyage usually as adults and raised families when they got to the colonies. For example, the French 'King's Daughters' emigrated to Quebec, then married, and raised large families (a dozen or more children in a family were not unusual). This could be modeled by, say, giving a percentage chance for Catholic colonies of getting two new colonists instead of one when the food storage reaches 200. This also preseves European emigration specifically due to religious unrest.

There are other national characteristics that can be modeled here. For example, Latin America has a large mixed race population due to the willingness of the Spanish, and to a bit less extent, of the Portuguese, to marry into the native population. This wikipedia passage gives the stats -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiracial#Latin_America:
Mestizo is the common word used to describe multiracial people in Latin America, especially people with Native American and Spanish or other European ancestry. Mestizos make up a large portion of Latin Americans comprising a majority in most countries. ...In most countries, for example Mexico, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Honduras, and a majority of the population can be described as biracial or multiracial (depending on the country). In Mexico, over 80% of the population is mestizo in some degree or another. ...According to the 2000 official census, 38.5% of Brazilians identified themselves as pardo skin color.[17] That option is normally marked by people that consider themselves multiracial (mestiço).

Perhaps this could be modeled by allowing Spanish and Portuguese colonists to have an additional option when entering a native village: "Marry local native". Then the colonist could return to the colony with the new native (similar to a 'native convert'). For balance purposes this could be limited to, say, once per native village.

In fact, if you added both, you could make the attributes more nation-based, i.e. the French get the attribute of possibly two colonists for 200 food, whereas the Spanish and Portuguese get the attribute of marrying a local native.

I like the 'protestant work ethic' of slightly greater production. It should perhaps be balanced by requiring a church and preacher in it, which the fervent population would demand.
 
Please, let us not mix 10 things in one discussion. :thumbsup:

We have a gigantic concept about Religions.

But let us please keep that for another discussion.
(The same for other feature suggestions.)

If we mix everything into one discussion / one feature, we will never get to a point. :(
(... and make the feature almost impossible to implement.)
 
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