Immortal/Deity - Can't progress, despite a ton of research

@ consentient

I think turn 100 is too early to be judging your games, as far as passing the AI. The power of tradition doesn't really kick in until a bit later, once you have civil service + free aqueducts for a while. It might be turn 150 before it really has taken hold.

A lot of the good strategy advice is also coming from deity players, like when they say education before turn 100. So take it with a grain of salt, and don't worry too much. Turn 110-120 is just fine on immortal.

Remember that the AI doesn't know how to use great scientists intelligently. So you don't necessarily have to be ahead of them all in tech all the time, since you'll catch up when you burn your GS in the late game. Just within striking distance is usually fine, unless their superior tech is threatening to you militarily.

To me, good scouting is one thing that is really key for succeeding on immortal compared to emperor. Like you said, sometimes you are surrounded by hostiles and diplomacy is difficult. The sooner you meet all the civs and understand the lay of the land, the sooner you can start planning. Like say for example you have Shaka next door. With poor scouting, you don't know if he will be bribable or not. You need to scout all around his land to find another poor soul that can distract his armies. If there aren't any, then you need to prepare yourself. With good scouting just maybe you will figure this out in time to throw an army together.

consentient: What exactly is the problem with making it up and running?

At immortal, my early turns path was following :

Found city on the first suitable hill (if possible with river), sometimes lose 1-2 turs because of this.
1) tech Pottery, while making 2 scouts
2) then build a shrine , tech is either mining, or AH, then depends on the luxes in the area but generally you want all 3.

At this time you get some gold from meeting CS and you scout for suitable places, you do same with your warrior. At some point you see a worker from a CS, and you enslave it and return it safely home.

3) After the shrine - granary and then either worker or library. I am never in a hurry with the library in the cap tbh.

So after a while, you hit 4 (in some rare cases 5) citizens and you can do your first settler (thats usually around turn 40) , I usually do another one immediately and most of the time just do a 3rd one. When you are done with the settlers, in the mean time you have connected at least 2 luxes.

So when u are done with settlers, you have finished philosophy meanwhile. The first city has library built at that point (after granary first), the second - depends, I sometimes build , I sometimes buy - kinda depends if I got lucky citizen boosts from the ancient ruins - these speed up the time I start with the settlers. So, if possible to make a 4th city and buy library - then do it, and go on with NC. If not - position it to the place you gonna settle, and do the NC, and then expand.

That works generally every game with equal success. And on Immortal you are rarely boxed in, so you fight for land with the AI, so you always get decent land.

So you gotta have all of this done in less than 90 turns, and most of the time finish tradition around this time. I notice, that with generic CIV I get education faster on deity and education around T100-110 on immortal was always OK for me.

I don't know where exactly you fail - maybe record a short video (no need for commentary), where you just play the first 100 turns of a given game, and someone could give you a bit more detailed advice

I don't understand why you take Maddjinn's india LP as a reference.
That game is far from good. Winning in 340 turns isn't an heroic feat and just a showcase of how terrible the AI is in this game at times (or is it always ?).

He makes a lot of suboptimal decision that I really wouldn't advise a new player to take.
Maybe he just wanted to have some fun doing stuff for giggles but this is just not a good educational LP.

To your credit there isn't many LP to go around on Deity. In my opinion Moriarte showcase better gameplay but most of his game are domination. I think he did culture only once.

The best advice I can give you is to fix stuff one by one by coming here and showing a game of your first 100 turns first. With a SS every 10 turns or so. Or stream your game and show it.

That way people will be able to give you direct pointers on what is going on wrong. What you're doing too late, what you don't have enough of etc.

Moriarte Iroquois domination is the one who help me the most.
Tommynt Venice Diplomacy victory, despite it was on low level.
Tabernak 3 cities tradition opening.
And, my science game reference, Klaskeren HoF SV, also on low level, but such many things you can use on Immortal/Diety.
For culture, Deau guideline.
As Civ is civ, when you are tech leader, you'll win. After, you'll understand how to manage your handicap. First learn how to be tech leader and how manage AIs with this videos. It's something like 30 hours of videos (for tommy one you'll need to have background music to sustain) but it'll save you many hours in game.

Memoryjar said:

Moriarte Iroquois domination is the one who help me the most.
Tommynt Venice Diplomacy victory, despite it was on low level.
Tabernak 3 cities tradition opening.
And, my science game reference, Klaskeren HoF SV, also on low level, but such many things you can use on Immortal/Diety.
For culture, Deau guideline.
As Civ is civ, when you are tech leader, you'll win. After, you'll understand how to manage your handicap. First learn how to be tech leader and how manage AIs with this videos. It's something like 30 hours of videos (for tommy one you'll need to have background music to sustain) but it'll save you many hours in game.

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I'll watch all those videos. Could you be so kind as to give me the links?

Tabarnaks is a guide on this forum. Search 3 city tradition

@consentient

I found for you this quite old thread, maybe you will find something useful in it,if not reading this thread is still quite entertaining

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=518540

Mostly a pissing contest about MP not sure it's really useful for someone looking for sp videos.

Memoryjar said:

Moriarte Iroquois domination is the one who help me the most.
Tommynt Venice Diplomacy victory, despite it was on low level.
Tabernak 3 cities tradition opening.
And, my science game reference, Klaskeren HoF SV, also on low level, but such many things you can use on Immortal/Diety.
For culture, Deau guideline.
As Civ is civ, when you are tech leader, you'll win. After, you'll understand how to manage your handicap. First learn how to be tech leader and how manage AIs with this videos. It's something like 30 hours of videos (for tommy one you'll need to have background music to sustain) but it'll save you many hours in game.

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Merci beaucoup MemoryJar!

I have searched on google but can't find the Deau culture victory or Klaskeren science victory you speak. Would really appreciate those links!

I would dispute the tech lead = win scenario. In fact, I have a question.

The past two games I've played, I've ended up as the tech leader before T150, AND with the highest science rate (shown by InfoAddict) but have ended up falling behind in tech within the next 30 turns. I want to know how the AI does this? How does it get ahead of me again, since I was out front.

Most recent game, I was early tech lead due a fantastic start with Celts, took a city from Hiawatha from a peace deal, puppeted it to gain 2 new lux, which helped a lot with unhappiness. Checked InfoAddict, had double the science rate of next nearest civ, concentrated on universities and culture buildings for 20 or 30 turns, then went to attack Assyria preemptively and ran into advanced unit!!! Checked InfoAddict, still #1 for techs.

I mean, I get how they might have beelined military, but if I want to win any other way than domination, surely I have to beeline the top and middle of the tree, right?

So I mean, if you want to win domination, tech lead = win, but if you want a cultural victory (still not got one on Immortal) then it's somewhat different.

I'm kinda done with the questions now cuz I keep getting conflicting advice, and am watching lots of videos. Would love the ones you mention, sil vous plait

If you were focusing on Science and not military, why did you DoW? I assume you were after a science victory, not a military one, and if you were after a domination victory, you will need to get military tech's after you setup your science production before you DoW.

As far as how they can jump back ahead, RA's and spies most likely. The AI seems to have extra spies at higher levels, as I'm constantly killing them off, and they keep sending more at me, all the time. Or perhaps they just focus on stealing from who ever is in the lead, which is usually me.

Most recent game, I was early tech lead due a fantastic start with Celts, took a city from Hiawatha from a peace deal, puppeted it to gain 2 new lux, which helped a lot with unhappiness. Checked InfoAddict, had double the science rate of next nearest civ, concentrated on universities and culture buildings for 20 or 30 turns, then went to attack Assyria preemptively and ran into advanced unit!!! Checked InfoAddict, still #1 for techs.

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being 1st in tech, doesnt mean that they don't have techs that you don't.
It only means that you have most techs ... For example - they have gunpowder, but you have optics and astronomy, with rest equal.

OP, I am also struggling with Immortal, having many of the same problems, so I hope you get some of the feedback you are looking for.

consentient said:

UPDATE: I won domination victory on turn 272. The last capital was a hard fight because he was still ahead of me in tech, but not by much. What gave me the edge was production and the fact that some of my cavalry were upgraded horse archers with march etc.
How does turn 272, immortal, continents, standard speed match up?
Can I consider myself to have made any progress? Or is that quite a poor speed of victory given the elements involved?
I'm chuffed to have beaten Immortal, but know I still have a way to go.

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I think that's terrific, and you should be chuffed. My few Immortal victories have all been narrow SV, around turn 350, and I cannot seem to speed that up.

From your followup, I take it you that you feel this DV was a fluke. Why? Was it an exceptionally lucky start or was it just Tilly? Have you tried Tilly since?

consentient said:

Going back to tradition, I don't want to sound petulant or ungrateful or a jerk in any way, so please don't flame me, but I've tried the fast 4 city settler x3 method, the caravans method, and a variety of different strategies I devised myself, and can't find a way to get up and running in 'good time' on anything above King.

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I think you first have to make this guide work for you at Emperor. That will help you figure out what is going wrong at Immortal. Tradition is easier than Liberty, and that guide (well, ones like it) made Emperor easy for me.

Tradition doesn't work for me at all, and liberty works for a while but not long enough. I'm obviously missing the fundamentals of the game but don't know where I can get visual tutorials of these, because I learn best by seeing things actually happen.

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I cannot overstate how much empathy I have with your list of frustrations, but I am not yet frustrated enough to watch hours long video of someone playing (it might come to that when I eventually try deity), so I hope you find what is blocking your advancement up the difficulty levels. But from this and your other posts, I infer that you are only building four cites. You absolutely need to convince yourself that Tradition works well for that (because it absolutely does). Liberty lets you build settlers in cap quick, but that’s about its only tangible advantage (well, that and the finisher GP). As you know from this forum, you should be rush-buying at least two of your settlers. Are you able to pull that off? (Myself, I cannot manage rush-buying libraries and settlers, so NC is late.)

From OP comment on another thread...

consentient said:

EVERY game I play at Immortal I try to steal a settler (or two) from and AI, and one (or two) from a CS that's not as important to my plan (e.g. Maritime when I've gone liberty, or religious when I have a natural wonder).

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This might be a big part of your problem, or I might be wrong, but I think you only get one free DoW. Or is it one free Civ DoW and one free CS DoW? If it’s one-and-only-one, then your second DoW is really crimping your diplomacy. You might not think so, and there may be very little indication, but it is. (Or I might be wrong, and you get to initiate two DoWs.)

once you've got a couple of settlers out, build 3 archers/CBs for every city with your capital while the new cities are building granaries and libraries

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This practice is certainly handicapping you. Your army is 2-3 times bigger than it needs to be if all you are worried about is an early game DoW. (But then your screen shot shows the opposite situation, so I am confused.)

beetle said:

This might be a big part of your problem, or I might be wrong, but I think you only get one free DoW. Or is it one free Civ DoW and one free CS DoW? If it’s one-and-only-one, then your second DoW is really crimping your diplomacy. You might not think so, and there may be very little indication, but it is. (Or I might be wrong, and you get to initiate two DoWs.)

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One DoW on AI and one DoW on CS has no penalty that lasts beyond the classical era. I have tested this at least ten times. You can see what penalties you're receiving by hovering over the GUARDED/NEUTRAL heading on the diplo screen. If you steal the settler of the first AI civ you meet, subsequent AIs you meet won't even know about it most of the time.

This practice is certainly handicapping you. Your army is 2-3 times bigger than it needs to be if all you are worried about is an early game DoW. (But then your screen shot shows the opposite situation, so I am confused.)

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Thanks for the support and the advice but you're wrong.

I used to only build one or two CBs per city but would just get overrun by Wu or Askia or someone else that loves to spam their units in the medieval period. Even if I built on hills and didn't take too many casualties, having to be on a war footing would just slow me down building up my cities for CV etc.

I'm moving more and more in the direction of thinking that once you have a decent military with upgraded units that could POTENTIALLY compete with any of the AI civs, you've won the game...even if you don't seek a DV.

I see the videos of people doing peaceful victories without building too many units, and trying to use diplo to fend off invasion, but it never works for me. I can only go with what I've actually witnessed in my own experience.

Thanks for the input. I agree with most other stuff you say

[EDIT: Oh, and btw, some people that make the videos are really fun to watch, at least for me. Their games may not always play out like mine, but Moriarte and Marbozir are enjoyable for me, especially in the early game. I'm probably also learning more than I realise from watching them. And I have to point out that I've yet to see either of them favour Tradition. ]

Although OCC is more efficient at generating great people it's not the best for science. Science is a function of population and the more you have to more science you generate. The %5 penalty for every city soon disappears after you build universities. Furthermore in OCC you can't send food to your cities, and that imo is the key to growth(apart from dirt of course). The most science I've ever generated from a single city was around 700 bpt and that wont cut it for a SV.

My advice is to install the info addict mod and look at the population graphs and science graphs. I find these very helpful in determining if a win was as good as it could have been. You're looking for a smooth upward curve for growth, and the same for science(although some spikes will be seen when you build/rush-buy universities/public schools/research labs).

There is one advantage in OCC and that is you should be loaded as every trade route will go to a civ or CS. Use this to bribe Assyria to DOW someone else and keep your military up to date. As Babylon you don't want Art's Funding passed so if you are the first host try for Science Funding(although the AI doesn't seem to like this). If you can have a garden(whether from Hanging gardens or from being next to a river), the National epic, Leaning tower of Pisa , SF passed you have a +%158 GS generation which should get you to Plastics pre t200. Also you want to be able to build an observatory.

consentient said:

One DoW on AI and one DoW on CS has no penalty that lasts beyond the classical era. I have tested this at least ten times. You can see what penalties you're receiving by hovering over the GUARDED/NEUTRAL heading on the diplo screen. If you steal the settler of the first AI civ you meet, subsequent AIs you meet won't even know about it most of the time.

Thanks for the support and the advice but you're wrong.

I used to only build one or two CBs per city but would just get overrun by Wu or Askia or someone else that loves to spam their units in the medieval period. Even if I built on hills and didn't take too many casualties, having to be on a war footing would just slow me down building up my cities for CV etc.

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With proper diplomacy you can often (75%+ of the time) get by with only one CB per city. I remember a continents map where it was my 3 cities and Askia's 15 cities by the end, him having wiped out the other two Civs on the continent. We were such buddies at the end I could bribe him into DoW with other civs for 4gpt.

Bribes/trade/denouncing the folks your warlike neighbor is warring with can go a long way.

TheGrumpyBuddha said:

With proper diplomacy you can often (75%+ of the time) get by with only one CB per city. I remember a continents map where it was my 3 cities and Askia's 15 cities by the end, him having wiped out the other two Civs on the continent. We were such buddies at the end I could bribe him into DoW with other civs for 4gpt.

Bribes/trade/denouncing the folks your warlike neighbor is warring with can go a long way.

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Can you expand on 'proper diplomacy' please?

Let's say I find I have Askia, Genghis and Gaja Mada on my continent, and each seems very aggressive against the others. How do I decide whom to side with?

consentient said:

Can you expand on 'proper diplomacy' please?

Let's say I find I have Askia, Genghis and Gaja Mada on my continent, and each seems very aggressive against the others. How do I decide whom to side with?

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This one is easy, it depends on the shape of the land - whoever is closest to you, you wipe him out together with Genghis. Best case would be Askia. But still, you can leave the one with no borders next to you alone, and kill the other one.

Best case scenario - you pay Gaja to attack Gengis and Askia. On the next turn declare on him and help em kill him. After that pay Askia to attack Gengis, the next turn dow him and help gengis with all that. And after that just finish him off.

dragonxxx said:

This one is easy, it depends on the shape of the land - whoever is closest to you, you wipe him out together with Genghis. Best case would be Askia. But still, you can leave the one with no borders next to you alone, and kill the other one.

Best case scenario - you pay Gaja to attack Gengis and Askia. On the next turn declare on him and help em kill him. After that pay Askia to attack Gengis, the next turn dow him and help gengis with all that. And after that just finish him off.

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Thanks. Does this apply regardless of whether you want to win domination or cultural/scientific?

[EDIT: Could you expand on timings? e.g. What should you have done before you attempt a certain diplomatic venture?]

consentient said:

Can you expand on 'proper diplomacy' please?

Let's say I find I have Askia, Genghis and Gaja Mada on my continent, and each seems very aggressive against the others. How do I decide whom to side with?

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You side with whoever is closest .

If you have three douchebags on your continent (and nearby) then you might be in that 25% instance where you need a significant military.