Best leader your country never had
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kochman
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You're going to have to flesh this out A LOT before it starts to make sense.
Stasi was insane...
Tahuti
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I like Trotsky, I mean, he is like the quintessential hipster avant la lettre. He surely seems more likeable than the one they call uncle Joe, right?
Right?
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
And now they can only vote in elections that let you vote for capitalist candidates.
That's not a vote, that's an act for an audience.
The US has the highest incarceration rate in the world, 716 per 100,000 people, which is roughly equal to the 800 per 100,000 rate during the height of Stalinism, which was by far the worst period.
So said the Tsar in 1916. But I never said that we were on the verge of revolution, now did I? So stop putting words in my mouth in an attempt to make me sound unreasonable.
Which is also not an indication of income equality.
I'm asking myself the same question, considering I've provided evidence and answered your claims and you have not, and continue to redirect instead of face the facts presented.
I did not say it was a nice system, I said it was better than what they have now, and better in many ways than what we have now too.
kochman
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That's patently not true. Sorry.
Elections in the West and in the former vassals generally have all sorts of parties, including distinctly non-capitalist parties, even, gasp, commies.
You took the red herring that Tim sent out and tried to run with it.
We were talking about the former vassals, not the US. Sorry.
I didn't say you said that, did I?
I said, if our system were anywhere near as flawed revolutions would be taking place in the former CCCP vassals. They aren't.
Income equality is a fallicy. While we should strive to have a better rate than in the US, true equality is ridiculous. You don't pay a janitor what you pay a doctor... it's simple.
Dude, you tried to claim the USSR had free elections.
Yeah, but the only reason is you said they had better benefits like health care, that has been gutted.
A fairly vague statement.
Anyway, this is pointless. You think they had fair and free elections... this means, despite being a student a history, you've got your eyes closed to... history.
Cheezy the Wiz
Socialist In A Hurry
Show me where I said free and fair elections, since you seem to think this is the cornerstone of my argument.
Oh wait, I didn't, I said they could vote. In a system just as rigged as ours is.
And no, income inequality is not a fallacy, it is of central importance to the issue. The countries got richer, the people got poorer, because now all the wealth is controlled by a rich few instead of shared by all of society. This is indisputable, and is something that capitalism is most proud of.
I did not speak of janitors and doctors, I speak of normal people and business executives who make millions and billions. Talk about a red herring.
You aren't even trying to engage with me or the topic, just throwing out caricatures and trying to fit me into them. I'm done with this conversation, my points are made. But I'm sure you'll try to twist them into something I didn't say, like you have this whole thread. And still ignore my data while refusing to provide any of your own...
Oh wait, I didn't, I said they could vote. In a system just as rigged as ours is.
And no, income inequality is not a fallacy, it is of central importance to the issue. The countries got richer, the people got poorer, because now all the wealth is controlled by a rich few instead of shared by all of society. This is indisputable, and is something that capitalism is most proud of.
I did not speak of janitors and doctors, I speak of normal people and business executives who make millions and billions. Talk about a red herring.
You aren't even trying to engage with me or the topic, just throwing out caricatures and trying to fit me into them. I'm done with this conversation, my points are made. But I'm sure you'll try to twist them into something I didn't say, like you have this whole thread. And still ignore my data while refusing to provide any of your own...
Timsup2nothin
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And you can judge this based on encountering them where? The Stasi were a paramilitary police organization, no more, no less. They aren't unique.
As already pointed out, if you try to use statistics to compare them against our own paramilitary police organizations you will run immediately into the fact that the incarceration rate in the US is just about as bad as it ever was in the USSR and is by far the worst in the present day world.
As to 'fleshing it out', my main point was that you are in no position to judge the state of affairs in America reliably. Just like if I pulled out glowing endorsements of life in the USSR from any number of party apparatchik you could justifiably dismiss them as 'not Stasi targets'. The fact that our paramilitary police organizations don't seem too bad to you is because you are behind them, not in their sights.
On the other hand, when you have seen a document headed:
United States of America vs <your name here>
the view changes substantially.
kochman
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Look, if you can't even accept basic principles, this is pointless.
The edgy CCCP support is played out dude, notice you're alone? Tim may throw in a devil's advocate here and there, but you're just being silly at this point.
kochman
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Speaking of red herring/devil's ad...
Ok, so you made a wild claim, and then didn't back it up.
That's all you did there... and then your nonsensical notion that I can't tell the difference.
BS.
Here's the thing, in the USA, if you F up so wildly that you end up with the USA vs Name, you've likely F'ed up tremendously bad, and you will get a public trial.
Anyhow, this isn't about the US, this is about how MOST of E Europe is way better off without the raper of the people, the CCCP.
Timsup2nothin
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The question is whether they are better off following the path of the USA or the path of the Soviet Union. That opens the question to observations on where the chosen path leads.
The fact that you don't have any way to defend the USA as 'a good end' is not really my problem, nor Cheezy's.
Says a man who has undoubtedly never been on the receiving end of one, nor really looked at what most of them are about. The apparatchik never gave much thought to what the Stasi were up to either, since they knew it had nothing to do with them.
Gori the Grey
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Can the Human Development Index, cited on another thread*, stand as a reliable index of how well various countries, with their various political and economic systems, provide for their citizens?
It measures long and healthy life, education and standard of living:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/human-development-index-hdi-table
or this one? that factors inequality into the considerations (so e.g. US drops from 5th to 28th)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...usted_HDI_.28IHDI.29_.282014_report.29.5B5.5D
*in support of a nonsensical claim about monarchy.
It measures long and healthy life, education and standard of living:
http://hdr.undp.org/en/content/human-development-index-hdi-table
or this one? that factors inequality into the considerations (so e.g. US drops from 5th to 28th)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...usted_HDI_.28IHDI.29_.282014_report.29.5B5.5D
*in support of a nonsensical claim about monarchy.
kochman
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I don't need to, because that isn't the argument.
The argument is that they're better off with the CCCP. It's not a hard argument to make, since the CCCP was so awful.
I work for the Dept of Justice, and I deal with court orders every day for my job... nice try though!
So much for "undoubtable".
Timsup2nothin
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If you reread you will note that I said you had probably never been on the 'receiving' end. Generally speaking those who have can hardly contain their mirth at the mention of the ironically named 'department of justice'.
kochman
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You also said - "nor really looked at what most of them are about". You were "undoubtedly" wrong.
Timsup2nothin
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In my experience very few people in the DOJ actually could care less what the case is about. Their job is to win it, not rate it on merit. And identifying with the
Timsup2nothin
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Didn't think you were. Lawyers, even DOJ lawyers, know there are no absolutes. Under law, nothing matters but agreement.
Farm Boy
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Oh but he's right about the law. In the law's eyes there is only the law. And what the law is in the law's eyes changes. If you want definitive truths or right and wrong or goodness or badness you need to look outside the law to something else.
