Crime & Punishment

What do you mean? I wasn't suggesting that these should be instead of the buildings (which are great, by the way. Really looking forward to reenacting Operation Mongoose), rather that international criminal bodies like the Mafia, Yakuza, Snakeheads, Al Qaeda et.al should receive some representation in their own right.

Praetyre said:

What do you mean? I wasn't suggesting that these should be instead of the buildings (which are great, by the way. Really looking forward to reenacting Operation Mongoose), rather that international criminal bodies like the Mafia, Yakuza, Snakeheads, Al Qaeda et.al should receive some representation in their own right.

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As long as you don't have world wide terrorist organisations before navigation. This was a problem in the "White Lies/Black Ops" mod.

Praetyre said:

How about making criminal/terrorist organizations like negative corporations (kind of like what White Lies Black Ops had)? Complete with the capacity to sponsor and fund them to encourage them to attack your enemies and ignore you, and the change of negative events increasing with their presence (terrorist groups, for instance, could blow up your buildings or even your Wonders, or in the worst case scenario, destroy a good chunk of your city (or, if it's a small one, annihilate it altogether) with a small nuclear device.)

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Thats the Crime one i was thinking of thx, White Lies and Black Ops

I think terrorism, independent of nationalist movements like the Sicarii Zealots (who are represented already by the unrest and potential revolt of occupied provinces under Revolutions) should only come into existance when, say, somebody first discovers Political Philosophy, and the likelihood of terrorist organizations emerging (much like how corporations currently randomly emerge) is increased by certain other techs (Nationalism, Marxism, Fascism, Industrialism, Mass Media, Computer Networks, Cloning and other techs which either deal with or cause social upheaval). Also, on that front, cyberwarfare (via viruses that act in a similar manner to biological ones) should be possible for both players and terrorist/criminal groups with the right tech and facilities, funnelling away income from cities with Computer Centers, stealing military secrets and other such things. Hell, why not a Wikileaks-type wonder that can only be built by a Great Spy, and weakens all players espionage defensability? Could really turn the tide for a mid-level player hoping to wage a shadow war against superpowers.

Praetyre said:

Hell, why not a Wikileaks-type wonder that can only be built by a Great Spy, and weakens all players espionage defensibility? Could really turn the tide for a mid-level player hoping to wage a shadow war against superpowers.

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Now i really like this idea, they did what MOST of the people wanted anyways, just to be informed withOUT any (well to much) lies. Hydro/DH can you handle this?

UPDATED Version 16, 23 Aug 3:00 am



List of changes here:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7175010&postcount=2

Does Bandit Hideout intenionally give -5 to Espionage?

Thorik1492 said:

Does Bandit Hideout intenionally give -5 to Espionage?

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Yes. All the Crime buildings give negative Espionage. The Law buildings will give + Espionage to balance them out once I am done making them. However the Law buildings will cost you negative gold.

Posting what the current stats are ...

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Chief's Hut
Cost: 60
Req Tech: Chiefdom AND Shelter Building
Obsolete Tech: Heraldry
Req Civic: Chiefdom
City Size: 1

• +2
• +2
• +1
• -5%
• +10 National Stability
• -1% Maintenance
• -5% War Weariness
• New Recon Units Receive +1 Experience Points
• New Melee Units Receive +1 Experience Points
• New Archery Units Receive +1 Experience Points

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Town Watch
Cost: 30
Req Tech: Monarchy
Obsolete Tech: Nationalism
City Size: 6

• +1
• +5% Maintenance
• +5 Defense (Except Units with High Explosives)
• +10% Defense Against Espionage
• Helps Thwart Rival Spies
• +1 with Divine Right

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Dungeon
Cost: 60
Req Tech: Engineering
Obsolete Tech: Economics
Req Buildings: Castle AND High Walls
City Size: 6

• +1 per unit that dies attacking the city.
• Max 8 per turn
• 1 Fades away after 8 turns

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Police Station
Cost: 260
Req Tech: Marxism
Obsolete Tech: -
City Size: 6

• +3
• +40%
• +10% Maintenance
• -25% War Weariness
• +25% Defense Against Espionage
• Helps Thwart Rival Spies
• Can Turn 1 Citizen into a Spy
• Double Production for Deceiver

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Jail
Cost: 132
Req Tech: Constitution
Obsolete Tech: -
City Size: 6

• +4
• +25%
• -25% War Weariness
• Can Turn 2 Citizen into a Spy
• Double Production for Deceiver

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Will post more later.

Hydromancerx said:

Yes. All the Crime buildings give negative Espionage. The Law buildings will give + Espionage to balance them out once I am done making them. However the Law buildings will cost you negative gold.

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I think this makes sense for the early game where bandits and rogues might sell your nations secrets to other nations, but by the modern era, I think less so. Local stability is definitely a factor at all times.

DH mentioned a rat spawning unit he had on the back burner. I wonder if a high crime city might spawn a serial killer or hooligans occasionally?

EldrinFal said:

DH mentioned a rat spawning unit he had on the back burner. I wonder if a high crime city might spawn a serial killer or hooligans occasionally?

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How would you determine "High Crime?" by the negative ? Or civil unrest? Because if its the civil unrest rev already has riots appear that can try to take over your cites. That's what rev is all about.

Hydromancerx said:

How would you determine "High Crime?" by the negative ? Or civil unrest? Because if its the civil unrest rev already has riots appear that can try to take over your cites. That's what rev is all about.

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Yeah, Rev riots want to overthrow the gov't, and is it's own mechanic. The civilian population is unhappy because of the poor government management.

I'm just tossing the idea off the top of my head here, but a city with high crime may not cause a civil riot, but could cause other issues beyond a general negative to espionage. i.e. a spawned "Barbarian" unit in the flavor of what I mentioned in my previous post.

As for how to determine "High Crime"... probably a tally of all the "negative" espionage since that represents crime. Or a net total when you add the law and crime espionage bonuses-- where a negative net means the crime outweighs the law and grants a % chance for a criminal to spawn (absolute val difference x 5% for example). Maybe there are even 2 or 3 types, one being the invisible tile destroyer type, another that might run to a city and sabotage a building, or just your common thug that will harry workers, units, and maybe pillage too.

Just thinking that a city with super crime should have additional negatives than just a minus to the espionage pool.

I have seen a specific crime tag for buildings in an FFH2 mod recently. Maybe that is something that could be added here to keep crime and espionage as separate concepts.

Does the AI understand the danger of building too many - buildings?

KingArthur666 said:

Does the AI understand the danger of building too many - buildings?

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Should understand negatives yes. But probably only as a generic negative, not in relation to its current overall per-turn balance, so that migth need a litle work (we'll see)

It seems they don't understand..
Since crime buildings give + and make units possible (They love thieves, rogers, etc..), they seems to like building it.
I think - per turn is too high unless Hydro add more to "law" buildings.

climat said:

It seems they don't understand..
Since crime buildings give + and make units possible (They love thieves, rogers, etc..), they seems to like building it.
I think - per turn is too high unless Hydro add more to "law" buildings.

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Going to have more law buildings added soon (hopefully) it should balance out. Right now we are lopsided with lots of + and -.

I do like the tradeoff, and its cool that you are forced to choose for one or the other. In my most recent game I was forced to build a bandits hideout because my infrastructure was ravaged by, what I think, german thiefs, but in the meanwhile I was able to build up spy points for all 3 civs on my continent so I could see their production.

Sugestions: Like I said I really like this tradeoff this early in the game, it adds another layer to the early game. But I do think that removing your ability to produce spy points up untill chiefdom (the chiefs hut) is a bit too harsh, and even after that you are not going to receive many spy points, but that is not really a problem. Two solutions: add some buildings between bandit hideout and chiefdom that provide a small spy point bonus, or make the bandit hideout a bonus of -x% to spy points or less than -4 spy points.

Another sugestion: as is now you really have no means to defend from spies except to put units on your borders or infrastructure and gatherers. With the gold bonus it is really a no brainer to build the bandit hideout eventually, the only strategic choice is when: to get the most out of your spy points advantage while not getting the economic advantage and hidden units. The economic tradeoff looks fair to me, but I think there should be a counter to, or a way to spot hidden units early in the game, maybe with a unit with limit 1 per civ. Hidden units allready are very good explorers due to their hiddenness.

I think that using the bandit hideout or not should be a real choice and not a question of when to use it, but now allready I see some huge potential and the new bandit hideout is allready a step up from the old one without the gold-spy points tradeoff.

@velosepappe

Remember that Dog units can see thieves. However you have to wait until the late prehistoric era to get them. Thus you could potentially spot thieves without ever building a thief yourself.

Hydromancerx said:

@velosepappe

Remember that Dog units can see thieves. However you have to wait until the late prehistoric era to get them. Thus you could potentially spot thieves without ever building a thief yourself.

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Yes, I forgot to add this, but really I think it comes too late. Mind that scavenging (bandit hideout) is only 3 techs away from the start and canine domestication is 32 techs. Maybe you could use some subdued animals to spot, or maybe automatically attack any hidden units without you being able to see them.