New Unit Review Notifications

Thunderbrd said:

@SO: I'd like to officially request to make a few adjustments to the Ambusher. There's a few issues here to consider:
1) He's currently equipped with a Shortbow and given the Archery combat class... I'd like to change this since he can come into play before the Archery tech is unlocked. Can we make him a little more savage feel and give him a Blowgun? Artistically this could mean it would help to give him a makeover so that his model is the same base as a Carib Blowgunner rather than an Archer but equally transparent would be cool still.

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Throwing rather than Archery is good, but I really think a blowgun is too specialized. Why not either a sling or whatever throwing weapon the rogue has?

The rest I personally agree with. The rogue is a limited unit and the ambusher isn't, and it would be good for the rogue to have something early to upgrade to.

The funny thing was that when we initially envisioned the Ambusher we wanted him to be a blowgun unit at that time and we didn't have any blowgun unit arts... we do now but we'd just have to make it semi-transparent like the current archer model of the Ambusher. Blowguns were common crude weapons utilized and they are only expressed right now in use by a cultural unit - I feel it should be represented by something a bit more generically accessible. At some point very soon blowguns will be awesome weapons for poison delivery

The rogue is using throwing knives. Another not bad choice and I considered slings as well... but I still feel we have way too little use for blowgun weapons in the game structure at the moment and this guy's perfect for expanding on that.

@DH: SO wanted me to get your approval on these adjustments before actually making them.

Thunderbrd said:

@DH: SO wanted me to get your approval on these adjustments before actually making them.

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The problem with that is that I hate those units and never build any of the criminal units. The only exception is the national unit ones which I build to get them out of the building queue. I park them in a fort somewhere and forget them. Same goes for the Warlord units, although I give the first of those a mountain promotion so I can pre build roads in all peaks. Not that they can be used.

As long as my dog units can keep them in check I don't care. So go ahead I trust your judgement on the issue.

Keep in mind that Ambushers aren't criminals... they are Strike Teams. Treat them more like you would a Special Forces or Sniper unit. Yes, dogs can see them too. With these adjustments they'll be a lot more field lethal and useful to the player as a result.

Anyhow, numerous reasons for the suggested adjustments here so thanks for your trust... I'll be adjusting the unit stats tonight then.

@Sparth: If you're listening here and able to help - We could really use a semi-transparent blowgunner model to replace the semi-transparent archer model for the Ambusher unit then.

Ok i just looked and the Rogue is listed as <iCombat>3</iCombat> but as you can see in the attached his str is only 2??

What ever is causing this, throws the whole balancing off??

Criminals are among those types that gain a -1 overall rank on Size Matters. This is to keep them from being fully competitive against full military units but they retain extreme usefulness against other units that also have a -1 overall rank adjustment in total, including explorers, canines, felines, etc. Rogues are quite good at withdrawal though so they should still be useful in wearing down stronger foes. Their invisibility, when they can escape the watchful ears and eyes of canines, can get them into opportunistic positions. This really enforces that they be played as a 'sneak' unit rather than a brute force attacker that you can't easily see.

This was one impetus for adjusting the Ambusher - Strike Team units should be at a non adjusted total rank (though I think I may need to edit some of them to bring them back to that point as some may have been incorrectly adjusted) unless they are also criminals. Assassins for one are really too powerful for their era.

Anyhow, this makes the Ambusher, unlike the Rogue, very lethal against even full strength military units.

To further justify: You've stated before that there are a number of basic military units you don't bother with - my perception is that the main cause for this is due to units that shouldn't be filling their roles doing so - rogues being a good example.

Thunderbrd said:

You've stated before that there are a number of basic military units you don't bother with

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Mainly the ones Hydro Added, anything dealing with Obsidian, i dont use, or units like that that were added, and anything less than an Axeman i dont use also, thats where i use the Rogue instead.
Also remembering i play on Marathon.

Maybe a "units/buildings I never use" thread would be helpfull
Sure, playstiles are variing, but if a building or unit would have too many votes and good explaination why, then we should think about making them attractive again.

strategyonly said:

Mainly the ones Hydro Added, anything dealing with Obsidian, i dont use, or units like that that were added, and anything less than an Axeman i dont use also, thats where i use the Rogue instead.
Also remembering i play on Marathon.

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Well... there you made my point perfectly. The Rogue should not be a suitable substitute for other basic units. That said, I completely respect the balance as y'all have it and for the core I've not adjusted balance factors like these. I just wanted a slightly different approach for the Combat Mod that asks players to consider units for more elements than their strength. As I've said before, if NOT playing with fight or flight, I can't really promise that size matters alone would have quite as pleasing a balance.

Also too... despite their diminished strengths, I've found rogues quite challenging to face the way the ai uses them, even on these options. Rogues are very hard to kill with high withdrawal values on fight or flight and can often flee when attacked back to where who knows where they are. They tend to send mini-stacks of 2-4 rogues to rush cities and may even send in another 2-4 stacked group of rogues to come at the city from the other direction - they're very effective at breaking through even a well considered defense to keep them out of the city and getting in to spread a LOT of crime. Unfortunately once there they tend to then want to move them on a little too soon imo. But at least they provide a challenge nevertheless.

With Canines being in the same balance of -1 rank adjustment, dogs aren't really any different in the odds they come up with against rogues - I often find they can't take down the rogue on their own usually which means you need to get something out there that can but usually those things (unless you are lucky enough to have some good fast mounted units) are often incapable of finishing the rogue when he withdraws from the fight (presuming you're using defensive withdrawal which is HIGHLY recommended for Fight or Flight games - to the point I've considered making it mandatory.) At that point, releasing the hounds to go chase down the rogue works well.

But if you aren't well prepared for them, they will eat your nation alive in crime.

This makes them very different in the role they play from that of an ambusher which I think is much more like how you're used to using them. The ambusher will be deadly to any forces that aren't well prepared for them wandering about in the field. And since Ambushers don't cause any crime you can use them for border patrol very nicely without any possible side effects from crime seeping in from the border tiles.

I'd like to point you guys my thread on re-balancing the (mainly) Ancient Era units from before:


http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=524237


What I wrote didn't seem to get much attention at the time, but a number of units need to be reworked- especially once the Thorax Hoplite Unique Unit for the Athenian culture is introduced into the game (currently it only has a Civilopedia entry- as the Athenian culture is still WIP)

Of particular note:

- The "Thorax Hoplite" Athenian UU ought to have its base strength increased (from 5 to 6) to reflect the very heavy armor worn by Hoplites. This should be partially balanced with a -10% penalty vs. archer/throwing units (the heavy armor and somewhat rigid formations made them a bit slow-moving), though the net effect should still be to allow them to generally defeat Javelineers and Composite Bowmen on open terrain due to their extremely heavy armor (they were still capable of some very long and rapid charges despite their heavy armor- as evidenced by the Battle of Marathon).

Their combat bonus vs mounted units should be reduced (to +15%), but they should be given a bonus (+30%) vs. melee units- as the primary historical purpose of Hoplite forces was to crush enemy melee units, in a similar (but better-armored and slower-moving) manner to a Macedonaian Phalanx. Currently it just serves as a Spearman unit with an extra bonus vs. mounted units- which is extremely unrealistic (and poorly balanced), as Hoplites were if anything worse at fighting cavalry (relative to their level of armor and armament) than light spearmen.

In summary- the reworked "Thorax Hoplite" UU should serve a similar (slightly stronger) role to Axemen, but be slightly more capable of facing ranged units due to their extremely heavy armor (higher base strength), and mounted units due to their carrying spears. They can (and were) still be defeated by the reworked Phalanx unit (Macedonian Phalanxes defeated Hoplites mainly due to their much longer spears), mounted archers, Praetorians, and Horsemen (and similar units) when on the defensive in open terrain.


- The "Phalanx" unique unit (which from the description and name appears to represent a Macedonian Phalanx- a distinctly different fighting style than a Hoplite) needs to have its bonus vs. chariots expanded to also include the Early Chariot and Hittite Chariot units, which are new units from C2C (the Phalanx UU is from the original game).

The Phalanx UU should also have a bonus vs. the "Horsemen" and similar units (such as the "Zebra Rider")- as the intention of the balancing in the original game was clearly to make it an anti-melee unit that was still strong against all mounted units before Horse Archers, as they carried long, heavy pikes (phalanx spearpoints were VERY effective at keeping enemy cavalry at bay, and their excellent training meant they could easily turn to face cavalry trying to flank them if not facing a combined-arms force with infantry to pin them. But their light armor made them vulnerable to mounted archery).

Last but not least for the Phalanx UU, I suggested the Phalanx be given +60%, instead of +50%, vs. melee units (so they can defeat the reworked Thorax Hoplite, and Axemen), but a minor (-5%) penalty vs. both archers/throwing units, to reflect their slightly slow-moving formations making them more vulnerable to ranged units than other comparably armored infantry.


- The "Hittite Chariot" UU needs to either be moved to the same tech requirements as the "Early Chariot", or the same base strength as the "Chariot" (I suggest increasing the strength). Currently, it cannot be built until the same techs as the "Chariot", but is a slightly-improved UU-version of the Early Chariot.


- The "Spartan Warrior" UU should have its "Throwing" class removed (it is currently Melee/Throwing). Why is it even there? It's unrealistic (the Spartans fought as elite Hoplites, and were equipped with stabbing rather than throwing spears, and typically no javelins), and only serves to make the unit additionally vulnerable to units with a natural bonus vs. Throwing units, or the "Sidestep" promotion (which provides a bonus vs. Throwing units) *as well as* anything with a bonus against melee units.


Regards,
Northstar

I've got those suggestions on the list of things to be addressed very soon. I think H gave his approval on them - I'll make sure to check your thread again - thanks for the link.

Rwn said:

I've looked if there were other units that upgraded into units whose prereqTech was lower than the non-upgraded unit :

Base Unit | Max GridX | "Upgrade" | Upg Max GridX
UNITCLASS_SAM_INFANTRY | 85 | UNITCLASS_MOBILE_SAM | 84
UNITCLASS_MODERN_MARINE | 85 | UNITCLASS_SPECIAL_FORCES | 80
UNITCLASS_MODERN_ARMOR | 85 | UNITCLASS_HEAVY_ARMOR | 84
UNITCLASS_CATAPULT | 40 | UNITCLASS_SIEGE_ONAGER | 39
UNITCLASS_ATTACK_SUBMARINE | 82 | UNITCLASS_NUCLEAR_SUBMARINE | 80
UNITCLASS_SKI_PATROL | 83 | UNITCLASS_SPECIAL_FORCES | 80
UNITCLASS_URBAN_HORSEMAN | 75 | UNITCLASS_CUIRASSIER | 52
UNITCLASS_APOCALYPSE_URBAN_CROSSBOWMAN | 75 | UNITCLASS_MUSKETMAN | 54
UNITCLASS_MACHETE_WARRIOR | 75 | UNITCLASS_MUSKETMAN | 54
UNITCLASS_WRENCH_WARRIOR | 75 | UNITCLASS_MUSKETMAN | 54
UNITCLASS_CROWBAR_GUARD | 75 | UNITCLASS_CITY_GUARD | 54
UNITCLASS_HATCHET_MAN | 75 | UNITCLASS_MUSKETMAN | 54
UNITCLASS_POST_APOCALYPTIC_GRENADIER | 75 | UNITCLASS_GRENADIER | 56
UNITCLASS_POST_APOCALYPTIC_GRENADIER | 75 | UNITCLASS_ANCIENT_FLAMETHROWER | 46
UNITCLASS_DOLPHIN_MECH | 108 | UNITCLASS_SIEGE_DROID | 104

I'm not really sure about the others (post-apocalyptic warriors "downgrades" could be intended), but the catapult (mangonel in game IIRC) is definitely odd as it upgrades into siege onager, which is unlocked by a tech (Ancient Ballistics) which is a prerequisite to discover the tech unlocking the catapult (Siege Warfare)...

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@Hydro:
I reposted this here to ask you to comment on the tech prerequisites of the above listed units that upgrade to a unit that would likely have been unlocked already. Are any or all of these correct or are there some adjustments that should be made?

(Thanks Rwn!)

@TB

So there are a few groups here I will try to explain ...

1. Post Apocalyptic

UNITCLASS_URBAN_HORSEMAN
UNITCLASS_APOCALYPSE_URBAN_CROSSBOWMAN
UNITCLASS_MACHETE_WARRIOR
UNITCLASS_WRENCH_WARRIOR
UNITCLASS_CROWBAR_GUARD

These units only appears if you loose access to strategic resources such as oil, guns, etc. They are ment to be better than the old medieval units but less than modern units. Normally in the game they are replaced by the early Renaissance/Industrial units, but if your civ happens to fall into the dark ages these should appear until you can make modern units again. Which is why they upgrade to say a Musketman which is the lowest gun unit for the melee units to upgrade to. When you get your guns back you should not be able to make those units anymore.

2. Future Units ..

UNITCLASS_DOLPHIN_MECH

The dolphin mech is a UU for the Dolphin Sapiens and as of now we have a messed up Transhuman era. Before I got busy I was trying to fix the units for this era. However this one is still out of wack. In the Old tech tree is was better situated but since the mech technology and the species uplifting technology is so far apart now it makes this unit a bit off. In short all the other mechs got re-adjusted and this should upgrade to something but probbly not what it upgrades to currently. If you want you could always remove it from upgrading at all.

3. Re-Made UU

UNITCLASS_SKI_PATROL

The Ski Patrol use to be a general unit anyone could get but now its a UU. It may need to be adjusted for this role.

4. Early Siege Weapons Redo

UNITCLASS_CATAPULT
UNITCLASS_SIEGE_ONAGER

According to my notes it should go ..

Mangonel (UNITCLASS_CATAPULT) -> Siege Onager (UNITCLASS_SIEGE_ONAGER)

Mangonel should be at Ancient Ballistics (x39) and Siege Onager should be at Siege Warfare (x30) What was the problem?

5. Unknown.

UNITCLASS_ATTACK_SUBMARINE
UNITCLASS_SAM_INFANTRY

I just don't know.

Hydromancerx said:

4. Early Siege Weapons Redo

UNITCLASS_CATAPULT
UNITCLASS_SIEGE_ONAGER

According to my notes it should go ..

Mangonel (UNITCLASS_CATAPULT) -> Siege Onager (UNITCLASS_SIEGE_ONAGER)

Mangonel should be at Ancient Ballistics (x39) and Siege Onager should be at Siege Warfare (x30) What was the problem?

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In-game this is the other way around: Siege Onager is unlocked by Ancient Ballistic (x39), which leads to Siege Warfare (x40), which unlocks Mangonel, which can be upgraded to Siege Onager.

I assume it's just an issue of putting Mangonel in Ancient Ballistic and Siege Onager in Siege Warfare (or removing one of them altogether, the lifespan of the unit unlocked by Ancient Ballistic and obsoleted one tech further might be a bit short...).

I am about to update the Dear Rider line with a Light Deer which is intended as an equivalent to Light Horse as in the "Charge of the Light Brigade" an the Australian Light Horse of WWI. I have set it to be similar to the cuirassier in combat stats. The art is just the Deer Archer but it finishes the line. I will do the giraffe next using the same art as we have but adding in the Giraffe Rider and Light Giraffe.

Rwn said:

In-game this is the other way around: Siege Onager is unlocked by Ancient Ballistic (x39), which leads to Siege Warfare (x40), which unlocks Mangonel, which can be upgraded to Siege Onager.

I assume it's just an issue of putting Mangonel in Ancient Ballistic and Siege Onager in Siege Warfare (or removing one of them altogether, the lifespan of the unit unlocked by Ancient Ballistic and obsoleted one tech further might be a bit short...).

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I will have to check those out. but either way it should not matter if the upgrade to the unit is so close. During that time frame there are lots of tech to choose from and one doesn't have to beeline down that line. Likewise slower speeds can be a very long time between techs.

Dancing Hoskuld said:

I am about to update the Dear Rider line with a Light Deer which is intended as an equivalent to Light Horse as in the "Charge of the Light Brigade" an the Australian Light Horse of WWI. I have set it to be similar to the cuirassier in combat stats. The art is just the Deer Archer but it finishes the line. I will do the giraffe next using the same art as we have but adding in the Giraffe Rider and Light Giraffe.

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So they just will lack custom graphics for them?

Hydromancerx said:

So they just will lack custom graphics for them?

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For the time being yes.

Interesting... I'd missed the Siege Onager in all my evals. And even if you got all the combat classes spot on DH, which I assume you did since I think everyone is really beginning to catch on with those, I'll need to integrate the unit into the bombard eval... I'll probably have that done and implemented by the end of the day so I would assume if the Giraffe version is going to be pretty much similar in nature to the Deer one, just use the same bombard values.

Why do they bombard you ask? Because Rifle using weapons will have an ability to do so across the board. They won't necessarily have it as their BEST strategy or be as powerful with it as Siege units but they will be capable. (Actually come to think of it they already do but they don't have the unit variations yet.)

I've just finished (with the exception of the Light Deer Cavalry (think you should add the Cavalry bit to the name?)) with the ranged bombard evaluation for units so I'm about to get those into the xml here along with a little coding adjustments to that system to work better with the values as assigned.

BTW: Siege Units will be able to bombard even if they cannot attack so that will be an exception to the rule that if a unit can't attack they can't rbombard.

UNITCLASS_DOLPHIN_MECH

The dolphin mech is a UU for the Dolphin Sapiens and as of now we have a messed up Transhuman era. Before I got busy I was trying to fix the units for this era. However this one is still out of wack. In the Old tech tree is was better situated but since the mech technology and the species uplifting technology is so far apart now it makes this unit a bit off. In short all the other mechs got re-adjusted and this should upgrade to something but probbly not what it upgrades to currently. If you want you could always remove it from upgrading at all.

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Good idea to remove it from upgrading. It's only other upgrade option is a droid and I'm not sure that fits here but we'll see. I'll remove its upgrades for now.

3. Re-Made UU

UNITCLASS_SKI_PATROL

The Ski Patrol use to be a general unit anyone could get but now its a UU. It may need to be adjusted for this role.

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Re-evaluated this unit (that it is a Norwegian unit is noted) - gave it a 50 str and moved it back to Long Range Forecasting and adjusted it's rbombard accuracy adjustment to 10 from 20. This gets it to fit in better with the rest of its statistics and upgrades. Fits the 50 str of the paratrooper on x78 (Long Range Forecasting is at x79 but the Ski Patrol has a lot of special benefits terrain-wise) and Modern Infantry of 50 str on x78 as well. It MIGHT be worth giving it a 52 str I suppose if we want it to be a little better than those two for the sake of being another x row up and a cultural unit. But again, those terrain specialties sure help the unit in arctic warfare a lot.