SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

mabraham · May 5, 2011

Thanks for feedback. No time for detailed comments now - basically I'm happy with the suggestions and reasoning bc offered.

Timing of whip on lighthouse is indeed irrelevant.

Not whipping a lighthouse in order to be more sure of whipping a courthouse makes sense - working a grassland tile for no purpose doesn't make sense.

Earlier second axe from FH probably does help axe arrival dates on Vicky's iron.

mabraham · May 5, 2011

bcool said:
OF hammers are maxed out at the builds maximum hammers (90 for a worker). I assume this is what is happening if you chop, max whip, and put hammers into from tiles on the same turn.

Ah, yes. That wasn't happening with 149- :hammers:

settlers I was playing with at some point.

mabraham · May 5, 2011

Ronnie1 said:
That's weird...when I dropped workers on the forest tiles in the test game it gave me 16 per forest, 24 is great if we can get it, but I have my doubts.

Perhaps you didn't have Maths.

Ronnie1 said:
I'm good with the PPP. I would tech Music after Construction only if no one else can tech it by then. If we are in a race for it and lose it, then I think it is a waste of resources.

Since we'll have traded away Literature to a few people, it will be literally (hur hur) possible for them to tech music, but I think GLib and Colossus ought to make things good for us.

mabraham · May 5, 2011

OK starting to play, I have my MSN and Gmail running if anyone's around.

mabraham · May 5, 2011

OK played. Things basically went OK. Save is here. This ends my turn set.

I perpetrated a mangle on CC, but didn't delay GLib or hurt us all that much. Got Taoism in SR, have organized a WB for the barb-proof fish out there. Also got another boat out. Vicky has two swords, an axe, a city SW of London that will delay the approach march to London by a turn, and will have a fort on the eastern iron. So she's a bigger target than we were hoping for, but London is still only archers, so there's still serious hope. I'm trying to get another unit out of BF and PC to reinforce quickly with the new galley contributing to the chain. WvO is about to beat us to music (our espionage told us not to bother trying). COL in 3 turns. Rag DOWed Izzy. We got a lot of trade routes out of finding Rag's capital - which looks fairly light on food.

We should switch espionage to whoever we want to hit.

Autolog

Spoiler :

Upload log

Spoiler :

adrianj · May 5, 2011

Very nice Mab. I haven't looked at the save, but from reading the logs it looks like everything went pretty smoothly.

I guess it's no surprise that Vicky won't be a complete pushover given that she is WHEOOHRN and likely producing units. It might work out in our favour if she sends them off to war while leaving her capital poorly defended.

I will be away from early on the 7th May (so basically from the 6th for you guys) until the 16th of May at the earliest. I won't have any access to the game, and any internet access at all is also unlikely (middle of the Australian outback pretty much...).

Ronnie1 · May 5, 2011

The Roster order is.....

mabraham = just played :goodjob:

adrianj = moved to 1st set after 5/16...UNLESS you have time to play ASAP before you leave????
Ronnie1 = UP NOW Got it!
bcool = on deck
grifftavian = in the hole
Thorn = waiting
da_Vinci = waiting

mabraham · May 5, 2011

OK, here's what I was planning when all the plan changes got too much for me to want to process late last night....

We now have a fifth galley. We could set up a triple galley chain out of BF on T180 when its second cat gets whipped. Likewise, a double galley chain out of PC on T180. BF can be set up to build an axe T181, and PC a sword T181. See attached screenshots. This means on the end of T179 we need galleys on sites BF1, BF2, PC1, PC2, PC3, and triremes guarding PC2 and PC3. Note that there's an ocean SW of PC that is really annoying us.

T180
Cats from BF move onto BF1->BF2->BF3
Cats from PC move onto PC1->PC2->PC3->PC4

T181
BF2->BF1 (returning to pick up the axeman)
BF3->BF4
PC2->BF5
PC3->BF6
PC4-> front line
Triremes guard the front two galleys (the galley on BF4 with units on it is safe)

T182
BF1->BF2 with axe
BF4->BF5->BF6->BF7 (trireme guards BF7)
Front line scouts

T183
Two front line galleys move towards DOW positions
BF2->BF3 and offload axe
BF4->PC1
BF5->PC2

T184
Two front line galleys assume DOW positions
Other land units in position either on marble or near iron tiles
BF3-> heads back east to sort out workers and stuff
Axe+sword move onto PC1->PC2->PC3

T185
DOW
PC3->lands somewhere

All of this assumes that we can afford the fifth galley to help the war effort. However we'll have workers looking for transport T183 and T185, and it is not clear to me that we want that fifth galley doing war stuff if it means stranding Stevenson and Yeltsin (near CC). Hence I stopped my turn set.

If we keep the fifth galley for domestic duties (and I think this is right), then I suggest we set up galleys on PC1, PC2, BF1, BF2

T180
Cats from BF move onto BF1->BF2->BF3
Cats from PC move onto PC1->PC2->PC3

T181
BF2->BF1 (returning to pick up the axeman)
BF3->BF4
PC2->BF5
PC3-> front line
Triremes guard the front two galleys

T182
BF1->BF2 with axe
BF4->BF5->BF6
Front line scouts

T183
Two front line galleys move towards DOW positions
BF2->BF3 (sword loads on)
BF5->BF4

T184
Two front line galleys assume DOW positions (one will still be in Vicky's territory, anticipating the DOW will teleport us usefully - should test this)
Other land units in position either on marble or near iron tiles
BF3->BF4->BF5

T185
DOW
BF5->BF6 planning to land somewhere next turn

In either case, the last axe+sword are going to be too late to get to London usefully, so I see them landing near Nottingham and hoping for pickings or something.

mabraham · May 5, 2011

Also, I think it is best to whip the lighthouse in SR now because of mid-set discussion with bc. We will have a border pop for fish access around T187 (and a workboat build is in train in FH for this). If we whip the granary now, my spreadsheet suggests we can whip the granary around T195, and bc and I thought this was an OK target date for switching to Caste. This gives CC time to finish NEpic and grow a bit, and the empire time to organize whipping courthouses. SR's courthouse will come from two forest chops, which are distinct from the Moai forest chops.

Ronnie1 · May 5, 2011

1st DRAFT PPP

Before play
Check autosave frequency in the .ini file is still 1
Turn on logging in game (Alt-E)

Tech Path
CoL 100%, done in 3 turns, next up = Civil Service 0% for the rest of the set.

Civic changes
None planned

Religion Changes
None planned.

Tech Trading
Check every turn for new tech trading opportunities.
Check Research Screen each turn to see if AI Civs have completed any techs.
Look for opportunities to trade CoL for Calendar maybe.

Other Trade Opportunities and Diplomacy
Maintain current trades
Check each turn whether we'd rather have fur or sheep, or there's a better deal available (e.g. for more )
Reject "Stop Trade" demands.......either Ragnar or Isabella is bound to demand this, should we pick sides????
If we have an excess resource, unload it if we can get some cash
If we have an expired deal for (easiest to check on the F4-"Active" screen by mousing over deals) and they have more income, cancel and try to get more. AIs will normally trade all their excess income for a resource up to about 10 (or more)
Do not trade Happiness for Health and vice versa, unless we have an excess.
Check if there are other deals that can be canceled/reevaluated.
Accept research demands of low cost (<300 ) techs from others...this only applies to Joao(Mono) or Ragnar(Poly)
Reject other research demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)
Reject War demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)

Espionage
All on Willem to keep track of his tech path. At some point in the future, we may want all on Cathy for a revolt in Moscow, but for now we need intelligence.

Do we want to switch to Cathy now?
Do we want to switch to Vicky now?

Great People
None

City Builds
CC... continue NE, add Engineer with growth, this will be worth 3 :hammers:

because of forge bonus. Do we want to duckweed another settler into the NE, I don't think we have time to move him anywhere.

FH...I want to switch to a galley here and go up to 29/75 hammers and then switch to an axe waiting to grow to size 5, then 2 pop whip the galley and then finish the axe. Then continue WB maybe....do we need it anywhere in the short run?

SM... finish Granary, then galley or MP?

PC... I don't like the chop coming right away. I would like to 2 pop whip the cat in 2 turns and then chop into a new sword.

MC... continue Moai

BF... I want to come off the Copper for a turn and then 2 pop whip the cat next turn. then follow with more troops, either Sword or Axe

FC... continue Granary, 2 pop whip it if we get far enough, ie: close to half full food bar at size 4.

GH... continue WB and whip it in 5 turns so it can be in place for SR border pop in 9 turns.

SR... whip Lighthouse now and then continue Granary. Work Rice now, + Fish Nets when available

Tile use...to be determined

Work Boats
“Magellan” spies on Vicky. Stays in fresh water lake to keep an eye on London and York.

Workers
Strauss and Eiffel chop jungle and then mine hill. Then 1 can move to forest near MC and chop this forest. 1 can road to spices, then road towards horses.

Stevenson WS, then board galley for trip to forest SE of MC, then chop

Hoover waits to chop the forest until after a 2 pop whip, then road tile between silk and our culture.

Yeltsin builds workshop on the mainland

Navy
Trireme "La Couronne"
Hangs in western seas for defense.

Trireme "Paralus"
Escort Argo

Trireme "Salaminia"
Escort Nautilus

Galleys “Ferry”, "Argo" and "Nautilus" 2/3 load 4 cats and head for London. Last on grabs reinforcements and heads east also.

New Galley "Kon-Tiki"

New Galley #5 needs a name, path to be determined by a number of different factors.

Stopping/Pausing Conditions

A barbarian spawns in an awkward position (eg, unit on land we wish to settle, or galley nearby)
I reach T188 (10 turns total)
Espionage indicates an AI build is over 500 hammers (AI get a discount on buildings so I think this means they are starting a wonder)
Vicky has access to horses???? This was in mabs plan, but I see no horses or trades.
Representation only applies to five cities, and it's possible that I run into a problem if the "wrong" city has captured the +3. I don't think this will be a problem this turn set, with wine coming in and fur able to be re-acquired, but if I have a serious problem, I'll stop

Checklist every turn before hitting end turn

double check MM and whip timing for each city
check tech trades available (including if the value of our techs have gone down)
check if and what AI have researched from F4 screen
check for new/better resource trades
check espionage screen for large sabotage production values in all visible AI cities
check if any AI went into war prep mode
check for any barbarians
save the game

While scouting
will put a note that notes the most recent location of barbarians
will put a note that notes the most recent location of all of Vicky's units

I think we should continue to build units and navy and try to sweep Vicky out early. With 7-8 galleys we should be able to drop 2 units every other turn on the continent.

mabraham · May 6, 2011

Ronnie1 said:
1st DRAFT PPP

Before play
Check autosave frequency in the .ini file is still 1
Turn on logging in game (Alt-E)

Tech Path
CoL 100%, done in 3 turns, next up = Civil Service 0% for the rest of the set.

Civil Service for macemen is not doing anything for us before Machinery. Bureaucracy is hopeless for us. It opens Paper for bulbing. If we still want our high-tech war (and I think we do), we need to organize Medi+Philo+Cal+Compass+Mach+Optics to get a bulb on Astro while we still can. We should dig out the old discussion of bulbing orders.

I think get Medi at binary research this set, and then probably Philo. High tech will look much less scary with Tao+Paci under our belts.

Ronnie1 said:
Civic changes
None planned

Religion Changes
None planned.

Tech Trading
Check every turn for new tech trading opportunities.
Check Research Screen each turn to see if AI Civs have completed any techs.
Look for opportunities to trade CoL for Calendar maybe.

Other Trade Opportunities and Diplomacy
Maintain current trades
Check each turn whether we'd rather have fur or sheep, or there's a better deal available (e.g. for more )
Reject "Stop Trade" demands.......either Ragnar or Isabella is bound to demand this, should we pick sides????

I don't care, they're both useless to us.

Ronnie1 said:
If we have an excess resource, unload it if we can get some cash
If we have an expired deal for (easiest to check on the F4-"Active" screen by mousing over deals) and they have more income, cancel and try to get more. AIs will normally trade all their excess income for a resource up to about 10 (or more)
Do not trade Happiness for Health and vice versa, unless we have an excess.
Check if there are other deals that can be canceled/reevaluated.
Accept research demands of low cost (<300 ) techs from others...this only applies to Joao(Mono) or Ragnar(Poly)
Reject other research demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)
Reject War demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)

Espionage
All on Willem to keep track of his tech path. At some point in the future, we may want all on Cathy for a revolt in Moscow, but for now we need intelligence.

Do we want to switch to Cathy now?
Do we want to switch to Vicky now?

I'd switch to Cathy for the moment (we'll hit Moscow sooner or later), and reconsider Vicky after we take London.

Ronnie1 said:
Great People
None

City Builds

Courthouses have to be a priority for the next ~17 turns while we still have slavery. It's worth 3 :gold:

2

in PC, for example. We can't do this and get more galleys, cats and swords. See attached PDF. If we head this path, we should give away our iron about T181 for 10 turns to get out some warrior MPs from (say) PC.

Ronnie1 said:
CC... continue NE, add Engineer with growth, this will be worth 3 because of forge bonus. Do we want to duckweed another settler into the NE, I don't think we have time to move him anywhere.

I think the fifth galley should come back because we need to get forests chopped for Moai, so yes, we want to put a settler somewhere...

Ronnie1 said:
FH...I want to switch to a galley here and go up to 29/75 hammers and then switch to an axe waiting to grow to size 5, then 2 pop whip the galley and then finish the axe. Then continue WB maybe....do we need it anywhere in the short run?

Yes, fish in SR. I think we should get courthouse next. Note on PDF the tile-sharing contortions to get max overflow on the CC settler and the WB out in time to get to SR fish.

Ronnie1 said:
SM... finish Granary, then galley or MP?

I think it should get its fish back T181 to grow to be able to whip courthouse in time.

Ronnie1 said:
PC... I don't like the chop coming right away. I would like to 2 pop whip the cat in 2 turns and then chop into a new sword.

Agree chop not right away - I've delayed it two turns already because the timing's been wrong - finish the road I've been building. We must 2-whip the catapult next turn (T179) in order not to destroy the boat plan timing. Delaying a turn gains nothing and delays the front line of galleys and the next sword. These things are integrated wholes... Also chop on T179, because it still goes to the sword.

Ronnie1 said:
MC... continue Moai

BF... I want to come off the Copper for a turn and then 2 pop whip the cat next turn. then follow with more troops, either Sword or Axe

Yes, come off copper to 2-whip cat, then the overflow builds a 1-turn axe that we will want to send off straight away. Then finish the trireme, and courthouse.

Ronnie1 said:
FC... continue Granary, 2 pop whip it if we get far enough, ie: close to half full food bar at size 4.

In order to whip both granary and courthouse by the T195 switch to Caste, we need to work the PForest. The crabs are not fat enough to grow fast enough for two 2-whips in that time, so we need enough base hammers for a 2-whip granary and a 1-whip courthouse. See PDF for timing.

Ronnie1 said:
GH... continue WB and whip it in 5 turns so it can be in place for SR border pop in 9 turns.

Possible, but I prefer to 2-whip the courthouse on T183 and get the WB from FH, as above. Then go back to the workboat.

Ronnie1 said:
SR... whip Lighthouse now and then continue Granary. Work Rice now, + Fish Nets when available

We need to consider carefully whether and when to chop the two forests to get the granary and courthouse by T195 (with a whip then).

Ronnie1 said:
Tile use...to be determined

Work Boats
“Magellan” spies on Vicky. Stays in fresh water lake to keep an eye on London and York.

Workers
Strauss and Eiffel chop jungle and then mine hill. Then 1 can move to forest near MC and chop this forest. 1 can road to spices, then road towards horses.

Agree chop then mine hill. We need both those forest chops soon. Then one worker does chop + road on spice, and the other does chop on northern forest. That will take care of this turn set.

Ronnie1 said:
Stevenson WS, then board galley for trip to forest SE of MC, then chop

Hoover waits to chop the forest until after a 2 pop whip, then road tile between silk and our culture.

Or consider exporting to Vicky's land to chop stuff out of London.

Ronnie1 said:
Yeltsin builds workshop on the mainland

Navy
Trireme "La Couronne"
Hangs in western seas for defense.

Trireme "Paralus"
Escort Argo

Trireme "Salaminia"
Escort Nautilus

Galleys “Ferry”, "Argo" and "Nautilus" 2/3 load 4 cats and head for London. Last on grabs reinforcements and heads east also.

New Galley "Kon-Tiki"

New Galley #5 needs a name, path to be determined by a number of different factors.

Stopping/Pausing Conditions

A barbarian spawns in an awkward position (eg, unit on land we wish to settle, or galley nearby)
I reach T188 (10 turns total)
Espionage indicates an AI build is over 500 hammers (AI get a discount on buildings so I think this means they are starting a wonder)
Vicky has access to horses???? This was in mabs plan, but I see no horses or trades.

Sure, but we didn't know that at the start of my turn set. Chariots would have ruined the plan. We still might discover them and have to abort.

Ronnie1 said:
Representation only applies to five cities, and it's possible that I run into a problem if the "wrong" city has captured the +3. I don't think this will be a problem this turn set, with wine coming in and fur able to be re-acquired, but if I have a serious problem, I'll stop

Checklist every turn before hitting end turn

double check MM and whip timing for each city
check tech trades available (including if the value of our techs have gone down)
check if and what AI have researched from F4 screen
check for new/better resource trades
check espionage screen for large sabotage production values in all visible AI cities
check if any AI went into war prep mode
check for any barbarians
save the game

While scouting
will put a note that notes the most recent location of barbarians
will put a note that notes the most recent location of all of Vicky's units

I think we should continue to build units and navy and try to sweep Vicky out early. With 7-8 galleys we should be able to drop 2 units every other turn on the continent.

I think this is an overestimate of our :hammers:

capacity. PC+BF+SM+FH tiles combined produce 23 :hammers:

/turn. Even if you double that with some more whipping, that's still short of one 52/60/75 :hammers:

land unit per turn, never mind more galleys! We've traded heavily on our population to get out the units we have already and have planned... PC has some more candle left to burn, but I think SM needs one of the fish, and even if not, your suggested production rate is definitely not sustainable.

bcool · May 6, 2011

Only have a little bit of time, can't comment on all the planning. will have something more intelligent to say tomorrow.

Just a few random not super analyzed thoughts/ideas.

A galley could be whipped in GH, and that would allow the 5th galley to be committed to the war effort. I would rather go with 5 galleys and reinforcements rather than 4 and just come short when we could get a 6th galley to ferry workers without too much problem from GH.

I think we might want to send 3 catapults and an sword to north of london if at all possible. 4 catapults are too vulnerable without some protection. The sword in the forest has a good chance to defend even against an axe. An axe would be vulnerable to a chariot if Vicky is smart enough to build one when she has horseback riding. Vicky has access to horseback archers right with horseback riding? Those catapults will get slaughtered without some protection.

mabraham · May 6, 2011

bcool said:
Only have a little bit of time, can't comment on all the planning. will have something more intelligent to say tomorrow.

Just a few random not super analyzed thoughts/ideas.

A galley could be whipped in GH, and that would allow the 5th galley to be committed to the war effort. I would rather go with 5 galleys and reinforcements rather than 4 and just come short when we could get a 6th galley to ferry workers without too much problem from GH.

Seems reasonable. Obviously delays courthouse from GH, but that's not a big deal if it means keeping London or taking York...

bcool said:
I think we might want to send 3 catapults and an sword to north of london if at all possible. 4 catapults are too vulnerable without some protection. The sword in the forest has a good chance to defend even against an axe. An axe would be vulnerable to a chariot if Vicky is smart enough to build one when she has horseback riding. Vicky has access to horseback archers right with horseback riding? Those catapults will get slaughtered without some protection.

There's no evidence she has horses for chariots or horse archers. Cat in forest is more than decent odds against a sword across a river - and probably better than our hypothetical sword against Vicky's axe. And our cat would also defend before our hypothetical axe against her chariot if she had one and used it... Bottom line is that cats on forest are quite survivable - and we don't mind if they get injured, because they still bomb fine.

Still, we do have time while walking more slowly to bombard more slowly... we actually need only two cats on boats. They have four chances to bombard 8 times, which takes care of the 60% bonus. The other two cats are now in position with the main force to attack without a river problem. That also eases the galley pressure, so the T181 units get there faster. My first thought was that we'd want the bombarding cats to be the 0XP ones from BF, which means we'd have to rely on the T185 DOW-teleport being suitable, but I expect that it is.

Ronnie1 · May 6, 2011

Civil Service for macemen is not doing anything for us before Machinery. Bureaucracy is hopeless for us. It opens Paper for bulbing. If we still want our high-tech war (and I think we do), we need to organize Medi+Philo+Cal+Compass+Mach+Optics to get a bulb on Astro while we still can. We should dig out the old discussion of bulbing orders.

I think get Medi at binary research this set, and then probably Philo. High tech will look much less scary with Tao+Paci under our belts.

Old habits....CS always comes after CoL!!! :crazyeye:

G Scientist Tech preferences to Astro....
Great Scientist:
Writing - check
Mathematics - check
Scientific Method - not open
Physics - not open
Education - not open
Printing Press - not open
Fiber Optics - not open
Computers - not open
Laser (BTS) - not open
The Wheel - check
Alphabet (BTS) - check
Philosophy - if we research Meditation we open this....needs 1 GS
Chemistry - not open
Fission - not open
Fusion - not open
Optics - we need this....needs 1 GS
Paper - CS opens this
Astronomy - TARGET...needs 2 GS's
Biology - not open
Electricity - not open
Flight - not open
Genetics - not open
Compass - we need this...self research
Satellites - not open
Aesthetics (BTS) - check
Sailing - check
~~Alphabet (Vanilla & Warlords)~~
Calendar - we need this....self research or trade
Medicine - not open
Ecology - not open
Advanced Flight (BTS) - not open
Iron Working - check
Metal Casting - check
Engineering - not open
Steam Power - not open
Liberalism - not open
Agriculture - check
Masonry - check
Bronze Working - check
Machinery - we need this....needs GS OR GE
Gunpowder - NOTHING NEEDED here down
Refrigeration
Superconductors (BTS)
Rocketry
Fishing
Combustion
Plastics
Composites
Stealth (BTS)
Mining
Military Science (BTS)
Radio
Meditation
Drama
Theology
Music
Civil Service
Democracy
Corporation
Communism
Economics
Hunting
Archery
Animal Husbandry
Construction
Robotics
Monotheism
Mass Media
Horseback Riding
Replaceable Parts
Rifling
Artillery
Future Tech

mabraham · May 6, 2011

Ronnie1 said:
Old habits....CS always comes after CoL!!!

Indeed.

I see your suggested bulb plan above is targeted on Astro. Astro's nice, but bc and I have had some long discussion based on our full-game play-outs that aims rather higher...

I think I summarised that thinking at the bottom of post #783. However it built on the experience and discussion in #648, #658, #748, #762, #765, and #783.

In the short term, we either get Medi+Philo plus a religion in CC very soon and switch to Paci+religion, or tech out Cal->Compass->Mach->Optics to prepare the first bulb there. Mach should be as late as possible, in case we can trade it, or put a GEng bulb on it.

My heart is in Paci+religion, but the two turns of anarchy make me cringe. Hinduism spreading to CC would seal the decision for me...

Note that the experience that led to this discussion was in test games against AIs who were offering nowhere near the kind of tech competition that WvO is offering in the real game. It would require some very hard evidence to convince me that we can afford to aim lower in tech in the real game.

bcool · May 6, 2011

We have meditation already.

I like pacifism as well and we have to decide what do about a religion in CC...

1 pop Whip&chop a monastery in spicy rice (timing chop for when the borders pop) and then the whip afterwards, then chop a missionary could get us a religion in CC about the time we could finish philosophy. For a switch to pacifism.

Or we whip London for a monastry and missionary and send them to CC (would significantly longer)

Or we wait for a better religion to spread somewhere else (let fate decide)

bcool · May 6, 2011

There's no evidence she has horses for chariots or horse archers. Cat in forest is more than decent odds against a sword across a river - and probably better than our hypothetical sword against Vicky's axe. And our cat would also defend before our hypothetical axe against her chariot if she had one and used it... Bottom line is that cats on forest are quite survivable - and we don't mind if they get injured, because they still bomb fine.

Still, we do have time while walking more slowly to bombard more slowly... we actually need only two cats on boats. They have four chances to bombard 8 times, which takes care of the 60% bonus. The other two cats are now in position with the main force to attack without a river problem. That also eases the galley pressure, so the T181 units get there faster. My first thought was that we'd want the bombarding cats to be the 0XP ones from BF, which means we'd have to rely on the T185 DOW-teleport being suitable, but I expect that it is.

sorry previous posts confused me. I think we should take a close look at how we can modify the the war plan. I think it makes sense to have 2 catapults and 2 swords perhaps go to the forest North of London and have the other 2 catapults walk with the rest of the stack other than the axes headed to destroy the iron.

One contingency we might have to deal with is Vicky fortifying the fort on the eastern iron with a unit. It will be hard for a single axe to deal with that.

bcool · May 6, 2011

Indeed.

I see your suggested bulb plan above is targeted on Astro. Astro's nice, but bc and I have had some long discussion based on our full-game play-outs that aims rather higher...

I think I summarised that thinking at the bottom of post #783. However it built on the experience and discussion in #648, #658, #748, #762, #765, and #783.

In the short term, we either get Medi+Philo plus a religion in CC very soon and switch to Paci+religion, or tech out Cal->Compass->Mach->Optics to prepare the first bulb there. Mach should be as late as possible, in case we can trade it, or put a GEng bulb on it.

My heart is in Paci+religion, but the two turns of anarchy make me cringe. Hinduism spreading to CC would seal the decision for me...

Note that the experience that led to this discussion was in test games against AIs who were offering nowhere near the kind of tech competition that WvO is offering in the real game. It would require some very hard evidence to convince me that we can afford to aim lower in tech in the real game.

Yes I agree we tech towards astro put one bulb into astro but do not finish it then bulb down the chemistry path and hopefully use liberalism to get steel. I'm worried that Willem will beat us to liberalism. Hopefully we can convince someone to DoW on him to slow him down.

bcool · May 6, 2011

1st DRAFT PPP

Before play
Check autosave frequency in the .ini file is still 1
Turn on logging in game (Alt-E)

Tech Path
CoL 100%, done in 3 turns, next up = Civil Service 0% for the rest of the set.

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I think 0% on philosophy as we have discussed above

Civic changes
None planned

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We want to test if getting or settling another city pushes us into the 2 turns of anarchy for 1 civic change before we take London. But I agree nothing is probably going to change in the next 10 turns.

Religion Changes
None planned.

Tech Trading
Check every turn for new tech trading opportunities.
Check Research Screen each turn to see if AI Civs have completed any techs.
Look for opportunities to trade CoL for Calendar maybe.

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It would be nice to pick up Calendar.

Mabraham mentioned in his post that he linked to above about the long range tech path that we might also trade for philosophy. I don't think it is likely we will be able to trade for Philosophy. If I remember correctly AI don't research philosophy much have the first person gets it, so it will be a long while before we can trade for philosophy. I think we have to tech it ourselves and the earlier switch to pacifism is going to pay off in my opinion.

We also need to keep our eyes open for decent gold trades. I think we should pick up 80-120 gold trades for cheap techs like Poly or Mono that only one or two AI doesn't know. Also we can trade for a larger chunk of gold if some AI get failure gold for perhaps the Parthenon or Hanging Gardens.

Other Trade Opportunities and Diplomacy
Maintain current trades
Check each turn whether we'd rather have fur or sheep, or there's a better deal available (e.g. for more )
Reject "Stop Trade" demands.......either Ragnar or Isabella is bound to demand this, should we pick sides????

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The trade routes are helping us from both of them right? Or is it just Ragnar? Regardless I think we reject these demands to stop trading. I don't think we are going to get either one to the place where they would be willing to declare war on anyone soon since they are involved in a war themselves that could last for awhile.

I assume I was wrong now that Izzy was in the northern hemisphere if Ragnar declared on her.

If we have an excess resource, unload it if we can get some cash
If we have an expired deal for (easiest to check on the F4-"Active" screen by mousing over deals) and they have more income, cancel and try to get more. AIs will normally trade all their excess income for a resource up to about 10 (or more)
Do not trade Happiness for Health and vice versa, unless we have an excess.
Check if there are other deals that can be canceled/reevaluated.
Accept research demands of low cost (<300 ) techs from others...this only applies to Joao(Mono) or Ragnar(Poly)
Reject other research demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)
Reject War demands (but will check with the team if at all possible before doing so)

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Espionage
All on Willem to keep track of his tech path. At some point in the future, we may want all on Cathy for a revolt in Moscow, but for now we need intelligence.

Do we want to switch to Cathy now?
Do we want to switch to Vicky now?

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I think we keep the espionage on Willem just higher than we need to see his research until he finishes music, so that we can see what tech he is starting after that then I think we switch to Cathy. If we switch to Vicky I don't think we are going to get anything useful by the time we declare war. We are not going to build up enough to cause a city revolt. No value that I can see on Vicky.

Great People
None

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Something to consider (bad idea I'm pretty sure) run engineer/scientists in CC as it grows to get a Great Person asap to use for a GA for switching to Caste, Pacifism, and a religion.

City Builds
CC... continue NE, add Engineer with growth, this will be worth 3 because of forge bonus. Do we want to duckweed another settler into the NE, I don't think we have time to move him anywhere.

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I don't know, need to look at details to comment on this more.

FH...I want to switch to a galley here and go up to 29/75 hammers and then switch to an axe waiting to grow to size 5, then 2 pop whip the galley and then finish the axe. Then continue WB maybe....do we need it anywhere in the short run?

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I believe mab suggested the workboat here for SR, however if we whip a galley in GH we might be able to get the workboat from GH rather than here for SR. So we might have some flexibility here.

SM... finish Granary, then galley or MP?

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finish granary, wealth for a turn or 2, then courthouse (stealing fish from BF in a few turns)

PC... I don't like the chop coming right away. I would like to 2 pop whip the cat in 2 turns and then chop into a new sword.

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I defer to mabraham about whip timing and galley movements. The 2 pop whip of catapult on T179 sounds essential.

MC... continue Moai

BF... I want to come off the Copper for a turn and then 2 pop whip the cat next turn. then follow with more troops, either Sword or Axe

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agree with mabraham, 2 pop catapult, axe, trireme, courthouse.

FC... continue Granary, 2 pop whip it if we get far enough, ie: close to half full food bar at size 4.

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whipping courthouse as mabraham suggested sounds good, a possible forest chop into the courthouse is possibly though, so maybe there is room to play here.

GH... continue WB and whip it in 5 turns so it can be in place for SR border pop in 9 turns.

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I think 2 pop whipping a 6th galley here, which might gets us the workboat for SR too.

SR... whip Lighthouse now and then continue Granary. Work Rice now, + Fish Nets when available

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I like a plan for a monastery and missionary here instead of whipping the lighthouse. I need to work out the details but I think pacifism and religion in CC is far more important than a lighthouse here.

Tile use...to be determined

Work Boats
Magellan spies on Vicky. Stays in fresh water lake to keep an eye on London and York.

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I think we might want magellan to spy on the fort when vicky finishes it to see if she fortifies it with a unit. The axes walking through will be able to see London so maybe check out nottingham.

Workers
Strauss and Eiffel chop jungle and then mine hill. Then 1 can move to forest near MC and chop this forest. 1 can road to spices, then road towards horses.

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after mine, road towards spice, then prechop spice other prechops northern forest, assuming monastery plan

Stevenson WS, then board galley for trip to forest SE of MC, then chop

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hopefully a galley from GH will be able to do this

Hoover waits to chop the forest until after a 2 pop whip, then road tile between silk and our culture.

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I agree Hoover will be needed in london...before the silk is even close to being in our borders assuming there is a safe path there...

Yeltsin builds workshop on the mainland

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He might be able to go chop another forest for MC transport by galley made in GH either before this workshop finishes or after.

Navy
Trireme "La Couronne"
Hangs in western seas for defense.

Trireme "Paralus"
Escort Argo

Trireme "Salaminia"
Escort Nautilus

Galleys Ferry, "Argo" and "Nautilus" 2/3 load 4 cats and head for London. Last on grabs reinforcements and heads east also.

New Galley "Kon-Tiki"

New Galley #5 needs a name, path to be determined by a number of different factors.

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I Need to examine war plans in detail...to comment

Stopping/Pausing Conditions

A barbarian spawns in an awkward position (eg, unit on land we wish to settle, or galley nearby)
I reach T188 (10 turns total)
Espionage indicates an AI build is over 500 hammers (AI get a discount on buildings so I think this means they are starting a wonder)
Vicky has access to horses???? This was in mabs plan, but I see no horses or trades.
Representation only applies to five cities, and it's possible that I run into a problem if the "wrong" city has captured the +3. I don't think this will be a problem this turn set, with wine coming in and fur able to be re-acquired, but if I have a serious problem, I'll stop

Checklist every turn before hitting end turn

double check MM and whip timing for each city
check tech trades available (including if the value of our techs have gone down)
check if and what AI have researched from F4 screen
check for new/better resource trades
check espionage screen for large sabotage production values in all visible AI cities
check if any AI went into war prep mode
check for any barbarians
save the game

While scouting
will put a note that notes the most recent location of barbarians
will put a note that notes the most recent location of all of Vicky's units

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sorry the horses comment confuses me. Vicky researched horseback riding but has no horses.

I think we should continue to build units and navy and try to sweep Vicky out early. With 7-8 galleys we should be able to drop 2 units every other turn on the continent.

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I think the costs of sweeping Vicky out need to looked at closely. We need to set up for the long haul so we need to look at what we can efficiently do with swords and catapults. Once we start the war with Vicky she will likely go for feudalism and those longbows will shut us down. I think we are going need some luck to take London, A great deal of luck to take another city before she get feudalism...

mabraham · May 6, 2011

bcool said:
We have meditation already.

I like pacifism as well and we have to decide what do about a religion in CC...

1 pop Whip&chop a monastery in spicy rice (timing chop for when the borders pop) and then the whip afterwards, then chop a missionary could get us a religion in CC about the time we could finish philosophy. For a switch to pacifism.

Seems quite sound. There's a clock ticking on generating GScientists and this accelerates that. The lighthouse or courthouse in SR do not affect that clock to anywhere near the same degree.

bcool said:
Or we whip London for a monastry and missionary and send them to CC (would significantly longer)

Or we wait for a better religion to spread somewhere else (let fate decide)

Fate ain't been kind in that department so far. We have no routes to the Buddhist holy city, so that can't spread. I'm not sure about Judaism. Only Hinduism is at all good, and it hasn't spread in 50 turns so far...

SGOTM 13 - Gypsy Kings

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Attachments

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