KingBigMac
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jul 18, 2013
- Messages
- 1
Hello, first off, this is my first time posting here and I have no idea whether someone already posted a similar thread or not, but I believe that what I want to discuss is not only a fundamental part of the game, but if my suggestions were to be put into effect it would change playstyles dramatically making the game, and especially multiplayer much more dynamic and diverse.
So, food bonuses. Various percentages that increase food gain in your cities. I believe that as of now there are six of them, being:
+10% for your capital with Landed Elite in the Tradition policy tree
+15% globally from finishing the Tradition policy tree
+10% globally from Temple of Artemis ancient wonder
+10% globally from Fertility Rites religious Pantheon Belief
+15% globally from Swords into Plowshares religious Follower belief
+15% locally from Floating Gardens if you are the Aztecs and have a city near a lake or river
Now, needless to say, this amounts to a whopping 60% bonus in your capital and 50% in all your other cities, as well as even more if you play the Aztecs theoretically giving you a massive bonus!
However, if the bonus is so huge, why do players often not bother trying to get even one of these boosts? I personally love the population game and used to consider India my favorite civilization, assuming that population essentially equals everything else, production and science, which are the building blocks of a succesful empire leading into gold, culture and happiness.
Yet after some time, I realized that I really am not getting the bonuses I should, (having gotten all of them), and understood, as many of you might already, that the calculation is added only to the excess food produced by any given city.
Just as an example:
Lets say my city is producing 16 food with a population of 6, thats decent early game. The population will consume 12 food per turn, leaving 4 excess food. I have also focused on getting food bonuses, and have managed to get Landed Elite, Fertility Rites, and Temple of Artemis, amounting to 30%, which is entirely possible, as they are all available very early in the game. This means I effectively improve food gain by 1.2, giving me 5.2, which is OK, but is it really worth the 225 production (40 shrine, 185 Temple of Artemis) I invested in just to get this? Now, if it was calculated considering my total food gain, which is only logical, really, considering that the game suggests you are improving food production as a whole, not just from the baskets you store to get more citizens, that doesn't even make sense. So, now, using 16, I gain 4.8 food production, which is a really significant improvement, and a great return on my investement, especially taking into account that it is global.
In fact, too great some would say. Including me. I understand that as you go into the late game these bonuses would get ridiculous, and even early on essentially 5 food is huge, almost another Hanging Gardens, and once you are producing 100 food per city on average, and receiving 60 more from that, I can see how absurd it is and why the mechanic works the way it does. Still, this doesn't stop it from being slightly underpowered in my opinion currently as it is, especially when you think about other problems the game has and how you have to interact with food as the game goes on.
So, here are my suggestions. I believe that if these changes in calculations were to be incorporated now, it would break the game and make it a race to get these bonuses. However, I also think that if they were to be nerfed first, say, maybe to a third of what they are, it would solve some issues I and some people seem to have with the game. Food is an investment into population, into the late game. Thats why people would get these bonuses even now, to boost their growth. But, in fact, it doesnt do that at all, doesnt act as an investment. Later on, when your cities have 40 population its not even worth growing any more because your going to need all your citizens to focus on actually sustaining that growth, and so players simply hit "Avoid Growth" and assign as many people as they can to working great people improvements and building slots, meaning that the investment is waisted completely, and the player who went for, say, the Great Library instead of Temple of Artemis, now has more great scientist improvements, and as of Brave New World, even those bonus Great Works of Writing slots. All because the bonus only effects surplus food, which is irrelevant when its not even worth growing.
But, if this were to be changed, the bonus nerfed down but the math altered to use total food production, it would not only mean that players which love having sprawling metropolises in their empire would get their wish, but effectively the bonus would behave as I believe it should, and would raise that cap from 40 to say 50, making food focus a real option in the competetive late game.
Well, thats about it. I, like all of you most likely, have far more grandiose dreams about what Civilization V could be and how it could be improved, but the reason I thought it was worthy to share this particular one is because, simply, it is actually easily achievable. Personally, I think it would greatly improve the game by simply adding more strategies. Such a simple change, yet I really feel that, for example to use the wonder race, you might build Temple of Artemis instead of Great Library or any other one really, because it seems to be such a secondary goal wonder as of now. Also, it makes sense in any context, not only because of the logistics of food production in the real world, I get that Civ isnt meant to reflect life
but also because for example religion wise, theres a reason the Muslim population is rising in the UK, largely thanks to immigration but also because of religious beliefs, as far as I can tell Muslims tend to have larger families. Now, I dont mean to start a political debate obviously, and I do not pretend to know much of anything about culture in the real world, however I simply just stated known facts. Realism was never, and should not be a goal in the world of Civilization, but I wanted to make a point that these changes would also allow ourselves to immerse into the game and relate to it, as citizens of a globalized planet, which on the other hand has indeed always been a goal in this series.
To finish off, I see this is quite a long post, but I hope that some of you may agree with me and perhaps even get Firaxis Games attention, or spur one of the more creative players to make a mod.
Thanks for reading, please post what you think.
So, food bonuses. Various percentages that increase food gain in your cities. I believe that as of now there are six of them, being:
+10% for your capital with Landed Elite in the Tradition policy tree
+15% globally from finishing the Tradition policy tree
+10% globally from Temple of Artemis ancient wonder
+10% globally from Fertility Rites religious Pantheon Belief
+15% globally from Swords into Plowshares religious Follower belief
+15% locally from Floating Gardens if you are the Aztecs and have a city near a lake or river
Now, needless to say, this amounts to a whopping 60% bonus in your capital and 50% in all your other cities, as well as even more if you play the Aztecs theoretically giving you a massive bonus!
However, if the bonus is so huge, why do players often not bother trying to get even one of these boosts? I personally love the population game and used to consider India my favorite civilization, assuming that population essentially equals everything else, production and science, which are the building blocks of a succesful empire leading into gold, culture and happiness.
Yet after some time, I realized that I really am not getting the bonuses I should, (having gotten all of them), and understood, as many of you might already, that the calculation is added only to the excess food produced by any given city.
Just as an example:
Lets say my city is producing 16 food with a population of 6, thats decent early game. The population will consume 12 food per turn, leaving 4 excess food. I have also focused on getting food bonuses, and have managed to get Landed Elite, Fertility Rites, and Temple of Artemis, amounting to 30%, which is entirely possible, as they are all available very early in the game. This means I effectively improve food gain by 1.2, giving me 5.2, which is OK, but is it really worth the 225 production (40 shrine, 185 Temple of Artemis) I invested in just to get this? Now, if it was calculated considering my total food gain, which is only logical, really, considering that the game suggests you are improving food production as a whole, not just from the baskets you store to get more citizens, that doesn't even make sense. So, now, using 16, I gain 4.8 food production, which is a really significant improvement, and a great return on my investement, especially taking into account that it is global.
In fact, too great some would say. Including me. I understand that as you go into the late game these bonuses would get ridiculous, and even early on essentially 5 food is huge, almost another Hanging Gardens, and once you are producing 100 food per city on average, and receiving 60 more from that, I can see how absurd it is and why the mechanic works the way it does. Still, this doesn't stop it from being slightly underpowered in my opinion currently as it is, especially when you think about other problems the game has and how you have to interact with food as the game goes on.
So, here are my suggestions. I believe that if these changes in calculations were to be incorporated now, it would break the game and make it a race to get these bonuses. However, I also think that if they were to be nerfed first, say, maybe to a third of what they are, it would solve some issues I and some people seem to have with the game. Food is an investment into population, into the late game. Thats why people would get these bonuses even now, to boost their growth. But, in fact, it doesnt do that at all, doesnt act as an investment. Later on, when your cities have 40 population its not even worth growing any more because your going to need all your citizens to focus on actually sustaining that growth, and so players simply hit "Avoid Growth" and assign as many people as they can to working great people improvements and building slots, meaning that the investment is waisted completely, and the player who went for, say, the Great Library instead of Temple of Artemis, now has more great scientist improvements, and as of Brave New World, even those bonus Great Works of Writing slots. All because the bonus only effects surplus food, which is irrelevant when its not even worth growing.
But, if this were to be changed, the bonus nerfed down but the math altered to use total food production, it would not only mean that players which love having sprawling metropolises in their empire would get their wish, but effectively the bonus would behave as I believe it should, and would raise that cap from 40 to say 50, making food focus a real option in the competetive late game.
Well, thats about it. I, like all of you most likely, have far more grandiose dreams about what Civilization V could be and how it could be improved, but the reason I thought it was worthy to share this particular one is because, simply, it is actually easily achievable. Personally, I think it would greatly improve the game by simply adding more strategies. Such a simple change, yet I really feel that, for example to use the wonder race, you might build Temple of Artemis instead of Great Library or any other one really, because it seems to be such a secondary goal wonder as of now. Also, it makes sense in any context, not only because of the logistics of food production in the real world, I get that Civ isnt meant to reflect life
but also because for example religion wise, theres a reason the Muslim population is rising in the UK, largely thanks to immigration but also because of religious beliefs, as far as I can tell Muslims tend to have larger families. Now, I dont mean to start a political debate obviously, and I do not pretend to know much of anything about culture in the real world, however I simply just stated known facts. Realism was never, and should not be a goal in the world of Civilization, but I wanted to make a point that these changes would also allow ourselves to immerse into the game and relate to it, as citizens of a globalized planet, which on the other hand has indeed always been a goal in this series.To finish off, I see this is quite a long post, but I hope that some of you may agree with me and perhaps even get Firaxis Games attention, or spur one of the more creative players to make a mod
.Thanks for reading, please post what you think.
