ISDG ~ Ruleset

PaGe missunderstund the RoP-Rule. You can enter enemy territory without RoP. RoP is needed for staying in enemy territory when ending turn. So if RoP is not granted early enough you need to ensure your units leave territy before ending turn. If this is not possible cause a lack of moving points you will be forced to declare war. DoW always gives a "RoP". :evil:

In this case we should set time limit to reply for RoP offer. Galley often have no choice : stay in the sea or enter to the border. What referee action will be in this case?

There is no need for a time limit. If RoP is not granted before you end your turn, you have no RoP. So you can't let leave units in enemy territy or have to DoW him. So at last the best procedure is to ask before entering territory. Entering without RoP is not directly forbidden. But it may be understood as an unfriendly action.
 
6. Borders and right of passage

6.1. Right of Passage must be given explicitly in the embassy thread corresponding to the two parties and can be canceled at any time. Any kind of deals/conditions can be associated with a Right of Passage, for example "your warrior is allowed to pass through the territory of town X, if 7 turns from now our warrior may pass through the territory of your town Y". The in-game form of Right of Passage only adds the bonus of leveraging the roads in foreign territory for increased movement/speed.
Durchreiserecht muss explizit im Botschafts-Thread, der zu den beiden Parteien gehört, erteilt werden und kann jederzeit aufgehoben werden. Alle möglichen Abkommen/Bedingungen können mit einem Durchreiserecht verknüpft werden, zum Beispiel "Euer Krieg darf durch das Gebiet von Siedlung X ziehen, wenn in 7 Runden unser Krieger durch das Gebiet Eurer Siedlung Y ziehen darf". Die Durchreiserecht-Form im Spiel fügt nur den Bonus hinzu, daß Straßen im fremden Territorium für erhöhte Bewegeung/Geschwindigkeit genutzt werden können.

6.2. If the other team has not explicitly granted Right of Passage, you must declare war in game, before moving any units into their territory.
Wenn das andere Team nicht explizit Durchreiserecht gewährt hat, müsst Ihr im Spiel Krieg erklären bevor irgendwelche Einheiten in ihr Territorium gezogen werden dürfen.

6.3. If during the other team's turns one or more units have ended up within the cultural borders of another team (e.g. because of cultural expansion, founding of a new city or cancellation of ROP), you have to undertake one of the following actions:
a) make sure your unit(s) leave the opponents territory within a minimum of turns (the other team may tell you exactly, which path the units have to take)
b) make an agreement about ROP with the other team
c) declare war
Falls während der Züge der anderen Teams eine oder mehrere Einheiten innerhalb der kulturellen Grenzen eines anderen Teams landen (z.B. aufgrund von Kulturausdehnung, Gründung einer neuen Siedlung oder gekündigtem Durchreiserecht), muß eine der folgenden Aktionen unternommen werden:
a) stellt sicher, daß die Einheit(en) das gegnerische Gebiet in der minimalen Anzahl von Zügen verlassen (das andere Team darf exakt vorgeben, welchen Pfad die Einheiten nehmen müssen)
b) trefft eine Vereinbarung bzgl Durchreiserecht mit dem anderen Team
c) erklärt Krieg

I just read this. It differs from standardprocedure i am used to from former DGs. So there is need for discussion before ruleset can be finalized.

Here is the old rule from DG6:

Grenzen und Durchreiserecht

  1. Wer durch eigenes Verschulden am Ende eines Zuges mit einer oder mehreren Einheiten im Kulturbereich eines anderen Teams steht, muss Ingame-Krieg erklären.
  2. Wer ohne eigenes Verschulden am Ende eines Zuges mit einer oder mehreren Einheiten im Territorium eines anderen Teams steht (wegen Kulturausdehnung, Stadtgründung oder gekündigtem Durchreiserecht), muss mit diesen Einheiten so ziehen, dass diese Einheiten den Kulturbereich in möglichst wenigen Zügen verlassen können oder Krieg erklären.
  3. Durchreiserechte müssen deutlich erkennbar im Botschaftsforum erteilt werden und können jederzeit aufgehoben werden.
 
justanick, your rule post says the same thing as Lanzelot's rule post. He uses more words, but the intent and final product is almost verbatim.
 
The only difference is, that Lanzelot rules forbid to enter territory even if you leave it again within your turn. Justanicks rule allows to enter for spying and you only have to declare war, of you don`t leave it within your turn.

Justanick said:
1. Wer durch eigenes Verschulden am Ende eines Zuges mit einer oder mehreren Einheiten im Kulturbereich eines anderen Teams steht, muss Ingame-Krieg erklären.
2. Wer ohne eigenes Verschulden am Ende eines Zuges mit einer oder mehreren Einheiten im Territorium eines anderen Teams steht (wegen Kulturausdehnung, Stadtgründung oder gekündigtem Durchreiserecht), muss mit diesen Einheiten so ziehen, dass diese Einheiten den Kulturbereich in möglichst wenigen Zügen verlassen können oder Krieg erklären.
3. Durchreiserechte müssen deutlich erkennbar im Botschaftsforum erteilt werden und können jederzeit aufgehoben werden.
translated said:
1. Who ends his turn with one or more units within an opponents territory, has to decare war, if there were other moves that wouldn't end in the opponents territory.
2. Who ends his turn with one or more units within an opponents territory, has not to decare war, if there were no other move to get out of it. Of course you must stand within the borders at the beginning of your turn, else waiting would be the option not to end in the territory. There are severell possibilty, that you start your turn within the borders (founding a city by your opponent, cancelling of a RoP, cultural expansion, ...).
3. Is the same like 6.1 by Lanzelot

I also vote for Justanicks ruleset. In my previous post I assumed that you stay in the territory at the end of your turn. Entering and leaving is normal for Civ3-games, but you aren`t allowed to change your move only because of a denied RoP. That's what I read out of Larkins post, what can be a misunderstanding.

Another point the rules "differ", is the option that the team, in which borders you are, can tell you, which path you have to take. If there are two ways with the same distance and you wanna go way 1 and the other team tells you to take way 2, are you then allowed to take way 1?
 
Can anybody explain how to act in following situation:
Coast-Sea-Sea_-Territory tiles.
C-S-S-T
Curragh at Coast move to Sea (1/3 turn), see the border, but there is no "in game" contact.
Next 1/3 turn contact exists. Ask in embassy, waiting for reply. If I got "Yes", OK, enter to T.
If "No" no choice, enter and declare? Can I trade before? How to make "in game" DoW? Through peace treaty negotiation? OK, possible. But stupid.
Later on:
Then question how to declare "in game" if 20 turn Peace deal still is running?

Also about 5.1; 5.2 if any version survive it needs clear explanation.

Otherwise it is impossible to play.
 
Can anybody explain how to act in following situation:
Coast-Sea-Sea_-Territory tiles.
C-S-S-T
Curragh at Coast move to Sea (1/3 turn), see the border, but there is no "in game" contact.
Next 1/3 turn contact exists. Ask in embassy, waiting for reply. If I got "Yes", OK, enter to T.
If "No" no choice, enter and declare? Can I trade before? How to make "in game" DoW? Through peace treaty negotiation? OK, possible. But stupid.
Later on:
Then question how to declare "in game" if 20 turn Peace deal still is running?
You can't make deals before declaring war, because the other team must accept the deal in game at his turn. But you have to declare war the way you descriped, which (I think) cancels any other diplomacy in game. Since treatys can be broke, the 20 turns peace can also be broke.

Also about 5.1; 5.2 if any version survive it needs clear explanation.
Otherwise it is impossible to play.
Here is the explanation by Lanzelot at civforum
Many of the players here as well as on Civfanatics have contacted me about rule 5.1. and said they don't like it. I don't care that much for this rule, so we may as well delete it, but I know that it can be exploited in some really bad ways, for example resource sharing:
Two teams have an alliance, fighting a common enemy. Only one has iron. So it sells its only iron source to the other team, the other team sets all their towns to swordsmen, then the next turn they make a quick war+peace, which cancels the iron, so the first team can then use the iron again for producing swords as well.

On the other hand I know, that the "20 turn rule" for all trades is pretty limiting. I guess this is the reason, why you are using the "RoP thread" instead of the in-game RoP feature. Sometimes you want to make a RoP only for a short time or only for allowing one particular unit inside your territory, but the in-game feature makes this impossible.
Similarly someone may want to sell a lux only for 10 turns, or a gold-per-turn deal only for 13 turns, etc... There are no limits to imagination here, and diplomacy/trading becomes much richer when not hampered by the limitations of the F4 screen... In fact I have already played PBEM games, where "everything was possible" and war/peace in a single turn was used for certain transactions. (Example: "selling" of cannons or workers. -- Mind you: I'm not talking about "double usage" here, where cannons/workers are switched back and forth between two parties. Just a one-time transaction, "you give me 50g I give you a cannon".)

Summary: allowing war/peace declarations in one turn would make the possible trade transactions more colorful, but would also possibly open a door to unwanted exploits...
I think they still discuss the rule. Eventually it is striked out.
 
You can't make deals before declaring war, because the other team must accept the deal in game at his turn.
Aha, I see, I declare war first and then ask for RoP, right? Are there civilized way to cross the sea and establish contact?
Since treatys can be broke, the 20 turns peace can also be broke.
If you have active unit "may be". But not via F4 screen.
Let wait how C o 4 sort out 5.1, 5.2.
 
Aha, I see, I declare war first and then ask for RoP, right? Are there civilized way to cross the sea and establish contact?

You have to wait at the border. Other team will probably establish contact. Crossing border without RoP isn't the most civilized way, is it?

If "No" no choice, enter and declare? Can I trade before? How to make "in game" DoW? Through peace treaty negotiation? OK, possible. But stupid.

Peace treaty negotiation is the standard procedure for DoW. If your curragh has 1 moving point left another option is to disband the unit. That is the real "stupid" version. :lol:

Then question how to declare "in game" if 20 turn Peace deal still is running?

This is a problem, which is an argument for Rule 5.1.
If this situation arise the bombarding of units without real effekt could work. If there is no natural option for this I guess there is the need that refs create it by manipulating the save in a normally prohibited way. So please pray this situation won't arise.
 
This is indeed a tricky question.

Let's look at the following example:



I can see: "great, I can cross the channel safely, find a new friend, ask him for permission to survive the next turn at his coast and then move on (or back, if he doesn't allow me crossing his waters any further, but I will remember that for our future diplomatic relations...)" So I move one step closer.



Still no contact possible, as you need to see a town or unit in order to make contact. But I'm pretty sure now, that the town can be seen with the next move.



So now what should I do? I still can't establish contact, so I can neither ask for a RoP nor can I declare war....! (You need contact for declaring war, don't you... And if we decide to play with "hidden nationality", then you don't even know, which opponent you just found... So you can't even contact them in their embassy.)

If you stay where you are or move back, you risk loosing your galley and it may take ages before you get a new one to that point. On the other hand, both teams might be highly delighted to find a new contact. The just discovered team might be more than willing to grant that galley a turn in save waters, if they get a new friend and trading possibilities in return!
So why should the rules punish both teams in this situation, if both of them would be more than happy to have the contact established?

I think, if there is no contact yet in F4, you should be allowed to move inside for one turn. On the next turn you will then have contact and then the two teams can decide on one of the usual options: make some kind of RoP agreement, retreat the unit immediately or declare war.

So now I move in, finally see the town, contact the other team and everybody is happy.



Lanzelot
 
I think, if there is no contact yet in F4, you should be allowed to move inside for one turn.

What if the chinese in your example don't want this? Such exception by ruleset seems a bad idea. Crossing ocean/sea without needed tech shall alway be a risky operation.

Can't you get contact by pressing shift-D at the borders?

:confused:
Afaik you need to click at a unit to establish contakt.
 
If the examaple is the base for the rule, then the Chinese should be able to deny entry and require the Galley return the way it came, or declare war. But personally, I like the rule that says you may NOT end your turn within someone else's borders without specific permission, each time unless some kind of an ROP is established. Without the ROP (embassy or in-game) permission must be granted for each time and/or each unit you wish to cross their borders.

Secret Tribe identities throw another wrench into the gears on this one. I'm not sure how effective secret Tribes will be, but I don't mind giving it a shot. Otherwise, we could make contact at the sight of the borders, and ask permission in the UN embassy. In-game contact is established by sight of borders and a unit or by clicking on a unit.
 
I tested the Shift-D option and got contact. May be it is different im MP-Games, but in SP-Games it works.

edit:
I tried it in PBEM-modus and it still works. So, the team could contact the other team before entering. In most cases you have over 60 hours on the clock, so there is hardly any time-problem..
 

Attachments

  • test.jpg
    test.jpg
    87.5 KB · Views: 160
Huh. I've never done that (that I can remember...). If we bring this option in (if it works with MP), then we could ask permission at sight of borders. That would alleviate all this rule-making. [party]
 
I tested the Shift-D option and got contact.

Hey, great news! (It's never too late to learn something new. Didn't know that before.)
So that resolves this problem very elegantly, doesn't it.

And I'm sure if a team is short on time and is in danger of overstepping the time limit, they can sent their request for free passage to the other team and the referees, and the referees will then stop their clock until a response is available and the game can be continued.

Edit: perhaps this should even be the general procedure, in order to avoid nasty things like the other team delaying their reponse on purpose in order to run down the first team's clock... :(
 
I knew about ^D, but for Galley it is not an option to return. I think we should make an exception for this rule like:
At first contact scout or Curragh may enter to the land and than ask for permition.
 
I think we are looking at this "wait for an answer thing wrong. You don't wait for an answer while it is your turn. You wait for an answer while the other teams are playing. If you don't get an answer when you get the turn save again, then you fire off a request to the Referees.

If you ignore the rule and send your unit into their lands (cross the border), then by law, the Referees can make you declare war. If your unit ends the turn inside enemy territory, it is illeagal. You don't cross over a border into other nation's territory or waters and leave your unit there without permission. It's fairly simple.

If you cross into my lands or my waters and then try to signal me, via email or PM or post in the embassy, for permission to do something you've already done, I'm going to ignore you in hopes of you using up your clock. That's like taking money from someone's wallet and asking permission to do it later.

You can cross into someone's land and leave during a turn, but don't let your unit be there at the end of the turn. You'll be breaking the rules. If you do what PaGe has done above, you must wait outside the bordes until you get permission. Once you get permission, then you may cross over.
 
At first contact scout or Curragh may enter to the land and than ask for permition.


Ending turn in enemy territory must always need war or explizit RoP. If you enter territory without permition, than you play a risky game. Other team has to right not to answer you. No Aswer means no RoP, so you lose worthy time and galley or you need to DoW.
 
Top Bottom