45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Someone is already working on it
General A New Dawn discussion
- Thread starter Rezca
- Start date
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
We might consider postponing a bit contact trading, if Vokarya agrees and it doesn't break his trick count rule.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
45°38'N-13°47'E;13948425 said:Someone is already working on it
Sweet, can't wait to see this mod voiced! It'll be the finishing touch that will make AND2 perfect.
jackelgull
An aberration of nature
"Um, sir, are you sure it's safe to put a burning statue in the middle of a city?"
I just saw this and couldn't help myself.
That's one of my favorite things I've ever added. It's the Pyre Zombie from Fall from Heaven 2 without the club. Much later, I discovered you could set anything on fire if you took the Pyre Zombie model, deleted the Zombie part, and added in whatever the model was to burn. That's how the Greek Fire building burns.
OK, time for a discussion question. Do we need Shielding and Advanced Shielding to be separate techs? It was pointed out that the Advanced Shielding building replaces the Arcology Shielding very quickly. The game treats building upgrades during construction a little bit differently from unit upgrades; if a unit drops off the build list while it is being trained, the game automatically switches you over to one of the upgraded units, while if a building gets replaced, it's treated as though the building went obsolete.
Regardless of that, I am thinking that the two different levels of Arcology Shielding are an attempt to split what would be a solid concept on its own into too many parts. Keep in mind all of the Arcology stuff is a direct import from the NextWar mod. I think it's OK for that mod, because the Shielding techs do offer a little more and there isn't much additional complexity in NextWar, but we have so much complexity besides the Shielding content that I think pruning a little would be a benefit.
Shielding and Advanced Shielding each have a trick count of 3. However, the tricks are pretty narrow.
Shielding has:
Advanced Shielding has:
Overall, I think the two Shielding buildings could be combined, and quite frankly renamed; I think I like Forcefield as a better name than Arcology Shielding. Likewise, we could drop the tech requirements for the techs that currently require Advanced Shielding. In terms of tech prerequisites, Shielding leads only to Advanced Shielding and Advanced Shielding to Interstellar Travel. If Advanced Shielding was cut, it would effectively mean one less tech to research to finish the spaceship, but finishing the spaceship has never required the entire tech tree. I took a look at the BTS tech tree and I was surprised at how many techs you could skip if you just wanted to beeline to the spaceship. Even Agriculture could be skipped if you took the right routes to Pottery and Writing. For the AND tech tree, everything before the Transhuman Era is required.
So this is what I am considering:
Let me know if you see any problems.
Regardless of that, I am thinking that the two different levels of Arcology Shielding are an attempt to split what would be a solid concept on its own into too many parts. Keep in mind all of the Arcology stuff is a direct import from the NextWar mod. I think it's OK for that mod, because the Shielding techs do offer a little more and there isn't much additional complexity in NextWar, but we have so much complexity besides the Shielding content that I think pruning a little would be a benefit.
Shielding and Advanced Shielding each have a trick count of 3. However, the tricks are pretty narrow.
Shielding has:
- Arcology Shielding building
- Aquatic Forcefield improvement
- Electromagnetic Armor Mk II and Shielding I promotions
Advanced Shielding has:
- Advanced Shielding building
- National Shield wonder
- Electromagnetic Armor Mk III and Shielding III promotions
Overall, I think the two Shielding buildings could be combined, and quite frankly renamed; I think I like Forcefield as a better name than Arcology Shielding. Likewise, we could drop the tech requirements for the techs that currently require Advanced Shielding. In terms of tech prerequisites, Shielding leads only to Advanced Shielding and Advanced Shielding to Interstellar Travel. If Advanced Shielding was cut, it would effectively mean one less tech to research to finish the spaceship, but finishing the spaceship has never required the entire tech tree. I took a look at the BTS tech tree and I was surprised at how many techs you could skip if you just wanted to beeline to the spaceship. Even Agriculture could be skipped if you took the right routes to Pottery and Writing. For the AND tech tree, everything before the Transhuman Era is required.
So this is what I am considering:
- Cut the Advanced Shielding tech
- Cut the Arcology Shielding building
- Rename the Advanced Shielding building to Forcefield, move it to Shielding, and have it be a direct upgrade of the Arcology
- Move the National Shield to Shielding
- Delete the tech prerequisites for Electromagnetic Armor MK III and Shielding III
- Interstellar Travel requires Cryogenics + Shielding + Space Colonies and moves into Advanced Shielding's slot on the F6 screen (also cost lowered from 28000 to 25000, in line with the other techs in its column)
Let me know if you see any problems.
Here is another thing I noticed as I was looking at Shielding and the Transhuman Era in general. I think it would be better overall if the Spaceship parts were clustered closer together towards the end of the Transhuman Era. Right now, the various parts are at different columns on the tech tree. SS Life Support and SS Engine come much earlier than SS Thrusters and SS Stasis Chamber. I don't think this is good; I would prefer if you needed to bring your total empire to bear on the spaceship at once rather than having one or two supercities build parts in sequence while you research the techs.
Another issue is that, while I've managed to push all of our current techs above the 2-trick threshold where I consider them viable, I would really like to see more balance among the trick counts. A tech with 6 or more tricks is in the top 20% of all techs, and I'd like to reduce the number of techs that qualify. Some techs are always going to have a lot of tricks; Masonry is going to have a high count because it shares many Wonders with other Ancient Era techs, but Masonry is the tech for "can you build at all?" while the other tech is "can you build this particular thing?" However, I would be in favor of shuffling content from high-count techs to lower-count ones.
The exact things I am looking to do are:
I would also like to move SS Cockpit off of Artificial Intelligence, but that would leave AI with only 1.5 tricks, which is too narrow. I could move AI Surveillance, but I think I would like to do these first and see if it makes a difference.
Another issue is that, while I've managed to push all of our current techs above the 2-trick threshold where I consider them viable, I would really like to see more balance among the trick counts. A tech with 6 or more tricks is in the top 20% of all techs, and I'd like to reduce the number of techs that qualify. Some techs are always going to have a lot of tricks; Masonry is going to have a high count because it shares many Wonders with other Ancient Era techs, but Masonry is the tech for "can you build at all?" while the other tech is "can you build this particular thing?" However, I would be in favor of shuffling content from high-count techs to lower-count ones.
The exact things I am looking to do are:
- SS Engine moves from Fusion to Shielding. Fusion is by far one of the highest-trick-count techs in the game, having the Fusion Power Plant/Power Receiver and all of the Fusion ships. It already gave up its Great Engineer because it had so many tricks, but I think it could give up the SS Engine as well. Fusion is a required tech for Shielding, so there are no problems there.
- SS Life Support moves from Ecological Engineering to Space Colonies. Ecological Engineering is a starter tech for the Transhuman Era, and it has a very high trick count with the Windtrap, Geothermal Factory, Paradise civic, Park Arcology, and Pleistocene Park. Space Colonies is one of the 2-trick techs (Orbital Factory/Zero-G Sports Arena) that I would like to see more content moved to. (I don't think we need to add very much at this point, but I have no problems with shifting things around.)
I would also like to move SS Cockpit off of Artificial Intelligence, but that would leave AI with only 1.5 tricks, which is too narrow. I could move AI Surveillance, but I think I would like to do these first and see if it makes a difference.
IPEX-731BA5DD06
Deity
All looks good to me,
Personally, I'd have swapped the engines with Thrusters, and put them in Interstellar travel.
Personally, I'd have swapped the engines with Thrusters, and put them in Interstellar travel.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Looks very good to me, I never liked that double tech either. Please, go on.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
Sounds very good too.[emoji106]
45°38'N-13°47'E;13950088 said:Looks very good to me, I never liked that double tech either. Please, go on.
I get suspicious of any tech that's named Advanced or Modern something. I would much prefer a more concrete adjective. I can make an exception for Modern Art, because I think that has a separate meaning than the ordinary word "modern". I would love to have better names for Advanced Computers and Advanced Warmachines. I can handle two Warmachines techs because the first one is the "middle-size" units (Dropship, Scout Mech, Fusion Cruiser) and the second is the "big guns" (Assault Mech, Dreadnought Armor, Fusion Battleship), and Advanced Computers is a major linchpin for the Transhuman Era.
I am wondering if we need two separate Rocketry techs. We have Industrial-era basic Rocketry and Modern-era Advanced Rocketry. I think the way I understood it, the Industrial Era tech is Goddard and Tsiolkovsky, while the Modern Era tech is rockets capable of carrying warheads and reaching orbit. As a tech, Rocketry only leads to Jet Propulsion which is several columns down the tech tree (JP also requires Aerodynamics) and I'm considering dissolving the Industrial Era Rocketry tech (move Missile to Aviation, Bazooka to Mechanized Warfare, Aluminum Co to Flight), letting the Modern Era tech have the Rocketry name. We also have a lot of aerospace techs in general and more techs in the Industrial Era than any other; I'd like to prune a little and get the last three eras closer together in tech counts.
Does anyone else have an opinion on keeping all of this? I feel like I'm putting a lot of things under the microscope right now and seeing what we can afford to sacrifice.
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
I'm ok with everything except the two rocketry techs. I'd prefer keeping them both, maybe renaming the later one Warhead Delivery, name taken from Realism Invictus.
Suggestions:
Advanced Rocketry -> Ballistic Missiles or Guided Missiles
Advanced Computers -> Integrated AI or Self Aware Subsystems
Advanced Warmachines -> Battlefield Domination
I'd also keep the two Rocketry techs.
And I agree with IPEX about the spaceship Engines/Thruster swap.
Advanced Rocketry -> Ballistic Missiles or Guided Missiles
Advanced Computers -> Integrated AI or Self Aware Subsystems
Advanced Warmachines -> Battlefield Domination
I'd also keep the two Rocketry techs.
And I agree with IPEX about the spaceship Engines/Thruster swap.
Stoklomolvi
Chieftain
- Joined
- Mar 18, 2008
- Messages
- 59
What's with the "You are treacherous!" diplomacy penalty I keep getting from declaring war? Thankfully through a combination of luck and unstable neighbours I've managed to survive until now but literally everyone on the map is either annoyed or furious with me because I declared war on a couple of people who demanded tribute. The worst penalty was -10!
45°38'N-13°47'E
Deity
OK, then if we can't find a better name (I really don't like Ballistic, this should come before Rocketry and it's an industrial Era tech) what about removing Advanced Rocketry and moving ICBM, Missile Lab, Hydrogen Bomb and MAD to Satellites and move Nuclear Missile from Satellites to Guided Weapons, since Satellites already has many tricks. The rest of the tricks from AR can be moved wherever you like to strengthen weak techs. How does it sound?
Speaking of Satellites, it doesn't seem to do what it's supposed to, all it does is removing the unexplored black tiles.
Satellites should give the ability to see everything that's going on in the world, every city, unit, improvement and road everywhere, as soon as they get built, and every tile's culture status as well. Basically it should grant unlimited visibility range.
Satellites should give the ability to see everything that's going on in the world, every city, unit, improvement and road everywhere, as soon as they get built, and every tile's culture status as well. Basically it should grant unlimited visibility range.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
That would be incredibly laggy and make crashes all the time, and the Modern Era's already pretty bad.
Rezca
The Greatest Jaggi
It does do what it's supposed to do: Reveal the world map. Problem is, 99% of the time - or more - by the time the late late late tech of Satellites comes into play.... You've already done that
So it just updates the tiles in the Fog of War since you've probably already explored the whole map a few dozen turns after researching Optics anyway
As Tolni said, having it unfog the entire map would just introduce far too much lag on top of the already lag-heavy Modern Era. No thanks!
It does do what it's supposed to do: Reveal the world map. Problem is, 99% of the time - or more - by the time the late late late tech of Satellites comes into play.... You've already done that
So it just updates the tiles in the Fog of War since you've probably already explored the whole map a few dozen turns after researching Optics anyway
As Tolni said, having it unfog the entire map would just introduce far too much lag on top of the already lag-heavy Modern Era. No thanks!
Then maybe we should get a buildable Satellite unit that has something like a 10-tile radius visibility range that we can move around on the map. It would have to be invisible and unattackable to others. Then later there could be a tech that enables you to see satellites and lets you build anti-satellite missiles.
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