[Speculation]Portugal

So, just to be clear, you're saying that because there's a single civ out there that has a privateer replacement, no other civ should have a privateer replacement? On the back of that alone, it's a poor idea?

That doesn't work. There aren't enough units in the game to think you should only have a single replacement for each one. We're basically talking needless symmetry.

That's exactly what I'm saying.

Few things to note here.

First, there's a minor semantics issue out. I know Civ IV used the word "carrack", but that's actually a Spanish word. The Portuguese use the word "nau" to refer to this type of ship. This was already mentioned earlier in the thread. Didn't stick, I guess.

Second, the caravel is a Portuguese invention. In fact, in the context of being the first to get out onto the oceans and being the first to explore the world, the caravel was *the* Portuguese invention. It's what let them do that. Doesn't make sense to swap it out, particularly with a ship that came later.

It does make sense to swap out the privateer, though. The Portuguese were the ones with the shipping lane monopoly, so they didn't need privateers. Privateering was how the johnny-come-lately civ's got in on the action, by going after Portugal's cargo ships.

Speaking of cargo ships, that's really what the nau/carrack is. Of course, it had guns, but all cargo ships had guns. Contrary to how BNW is presenting cargo ships, nobody just sailed across an ocean in privateer-infested waters without a cannon (or even a spyglass for that matter, as cargo ships apparently have no line-of-sight). Given that incongruity, the nau makes about as much sense as a cargo ship replacement as it does a privateer replacement.

I revised my suggestion a bit since you quoted it, but I already had Nau in parenthesis, so the fact wasn't lost on me.

Portugal and the Netherlands both have a legacy for naval trade. Sure, a unit can have more than one unique replacement in the game (just ask the Musketman), but why not replace the Caravel even if the Caravel is a Portuguese innovation. Unfortunately, it's already been appropriated as the general first oceanic vessel in the game, so it isn't like the Portuguese have any special claim to it from a gameplay perspective.

For reference, here is my 'finalized' suggestion:

UA: Age of Discovery Receive double :c5gold: gold when first meeting a City State; if you are the first to circumnavigate the globe, receive a free Social Policy and enter a Golden Age.

UU: Carrack (or Nau), replaces Caravel. Available at Compass instead of Astronomy. Same stats as Caravel except it receives +1 sight and +1 :c5moves: movement. If gifted to a City State, receive a gold bonus.

UB: Feitoria, replaces Harbor. Adds 5 :c5strength: and +50 HP; each ocean tile worked by the city generates +1 gold :c5gold:.

You do bring up some good points though, so here is an alternate:

UA: Age of Discovery Receive double :c5gold: gold when first meeting a City State; if you are the first to circumnavigate the globe, receive a free Social Policy and enter a Golden Age. Caravel available at Compass.

UU: Carrack (or Nau), replaces Privateer. Loses the Prize Ships and Coastal Raider promotions, but has 6 :c5moves: movement. When stacked on a Cargo Ship or embarked unit, confers its movement points to that unit. Receives a significant defensive bonus when attacked (20%).

UB: Feitoria, replaces Harbor. 4 :c5gold: maintenance. Adds 5 :c5strength: and +50 HP; each ocean tile worked by the city generates +1 :c5gold: gold, +2 :c5gold: gold if on a separate continent from your capital.

After revision, I think I like this version better.
 
You've got some good stuff there.

Some ideas I've had for Portugal in the past:

Unique Unit: Nau. Requires navigation, replaces privateer, and lose the pirate ship and coastal raider promotions. Starts with the supply promotion, allowing it to heal outside of friendly territory. When within or adjacent to a city-state's border, receive double gold from tribute.

Unique Unit: Bandeirantes. Requires gunpowder, replaces musketman. Can build mines and plantations. +15% :c5strength: combat strength within two tiles of a luxury resource.

Unique Building: Feitoria. Requires navigation, replaces seaport. As seaport, and provides +20% :c5strength: defense against naval attacks. Adjacent & garrisoned naval units heal +10 HP per turn.

Unique Unit: Cacadore. Requires rifling, replaces rifleman. Has +1 sight and +15% :c5strength: combat strength when within two tiles of a friendly border.

Of course, this all predates BNW. You can read the idea in its entirety, with the UA's and the accompanying discussion, here.
 
If they add Portugal, Firaxis should add this achievement:

Finder is not the keeper: Found 5 cities in continent other than your home continent, and manage to lose it to England or Dutch empires. :lol:
 
I'm not sure these suggestions work with what we have seen of Trade so far. For example I got the impression that trade units are more like air units based in one cities and only moving along a trade roup on the map after certain rules. That would make any unit replacing a Cargo Ship pretty passive and may be too restricting for another Naval Unique Unit... We will see.

I like pretty much all suggestions, but it is obvious that these are all a bit in the same direction. The extra culture or free social policy one goes a bit astray and I just don't feel like Portugal should be a culture civ. It also doesn't have incredible synergy with a Coalition like AI personality.

Thinking outside the box, what about a UA "Naval Pioneers": receive a free copy of each naval unit upon researching it OR each naval unit is available one tech earlier for Portugal. Things like that make it play differently, no? I'd want to emphasize that it's important to find stuff that is working through much of the game, worthwhile for gameplay (so does the special thing of the Nau/Carrack stay on upgrade) and also have some worth on non-sea maps. That doesn't much matter for the human player since you will adapt the map to your civ often, but it's very important for a competitve AI and also for multiplayer. That's why I did suggest the Feitoria also applying to land routes.

I do like - if we're speaking of outside the box ideas - the padrao as a Unique Improvement adding tiles to your empire in faraway lands. Though a) how to balance it?, b) how to make the AI use something like that? and c) it kinda fits better as a special ability of a Unique Unit, no?
 
My free social policy is there because I thought a Golden Age wasn't quite enough of a reward for managing to circumnavigate the globe first. I don't think they're a Social Policy civ either. The most logical use of that free social policy would be to kick off/further the Exploration or Commerce tree.

My concept of the Portuguese is an expansive naval/coastal civ that is incentivized by monetary gain to explore the world's oceans before other civilizations. Through the Feitoria's defensive bonus (equal to the Wall) and the Carrack's 20% defensive bonus when attacked, the end result is a tough naval trading empire that peaks, appropriately, during its so-called 'Age of Discovery.'

The goal of the player or AI would be to beeline sailing technologies, maximize their advantage mid-game, and to then try to maintain a late-game lead.

Final suggestion...
UA: Age of Discovery Receive +50% :c5gold: gold when first meeting a City State; if you are the first to circumnavigate the globe, receive a free Social Policy and enter a Golden Age. Caravel available at Compass.

UU: Carrack (or Nau), replaces Privateer. Loses the Prize Ships and Coastal Raider promotions, but has 6 :c5moves: movement. When stacked on a Cargo Ship or embarked unit, confers its movement points to that unit. Receives a significant defensive bonus when attacked (20%).

UB: Feitoria, replaces Harbor. 4 :c5gold: maintenance. Adds 5 :c5strength: and +50 HP; each ocean tile worked by the city generates +1 :c5gold: gold, +2 :c5gold: gold if on a separate continent from your capital.
 
I don't see how micromanaging trade route escorts is any fun. Portuguese definitely used their cannons to capture trading ports. After the union with Spain their trade network fell prey to the English and Dutch.
 
I don't see how micromanaging trade route escorts is any fun. Portuguese definitely used their cannons to capture trading ports. After the union with Spain their trade network fell prey to the English and Dutch.

I figured it wouldn't be difficult for the devs to allow ships to 'sleep' on a Cargo Ship. Even if you had to micromanage it, the extra security and movement is worth the effort.
 
Fernão de Magalhães (Ferdinand Magellan) was portuguese but he worked for the spanish crown. So technically using the circumnavigation as part of the civilisation ability doesn't quite historically fit on Portugal. There must be other kind of reward for the exploration tree like - if there is any at all.

If included, feitoria should provide a trade bonus, the second of bonus can be either defensive or XP for naval units.

Carracks shouldn't be replacing privateers but caravels - simply because it isn't historically accurate. Although I find the idea of stacking a nau/carrack to a cargo ship very interesting.
 
I think it will be somethink like this:

UA: 1 or 2 extra naval trade routes.
UU: Carrack, a cargo ship with a defense value
UB: Feitoria, a harbor with extra gold or something
 
After the union with Spain their trade network fell prey to the English and Dutch.

Indeed. One may say that the iberian union was a shifting point in the history of the portuguese empire, as it didn't benefit the portuguese interests so much as it did for the spanish ones. So the dutch and the english when they were attacking the portuguese colonies and feitorias they were in fact attacking the spanish crown.
 
I think it will be somethink like this:

UA: 1 or 2 extra naval trade routes.
UU: Carrack, a cargo ship with a defense value
UB: Feitoria, a harbor with extra gold or something

What do you think about the movement and sight bonuses for the nau/carrack?
 
I figured it wouldn't be difficult for the devs to allow ships to 'sleep' on a Cargo Ship. Even if you had to micromanage it, the extra security and movement is worth the effort.

Why would you make their trade routes invulnerable to attack? What happened in history is that they were quickly destroyed by English and Dutch.
 
Fernão de Magalhães (Ferdinand Magellan) was portuguese but he worked for the spanish crown. So technically using the circumnavigation as part of the civilisation ability doesn't quite historically fit on Portugal. There must be other kind of reward for the exploration tree like - if there is any at all.

If included, feitoria should provide a trade bonus, the second of bonus can be either defensive or XP for naval units.

Carracks shouldn't be replacing privateers but caravels - simply because it isn't historically accurate. Although I find the idea of stacking a nau/carrack to a cargo ship very interesting.

Yes Magellan was in service of Spain so the first circumnavigation was a Spanish accomplishment.

What's historically inaccurate is having caravels and Carracks performing the same role. Carracks evolved into galleons but unfortunately they're not in the game. The Portuguese operated very much like pirates in the Indian Ocean.
 
Fernão de Magalhães (Ferdinand Magellan) was portuguese but he worked for the spanish crown. So technically using the circumnavigation as part of the civilisation ability doesn't quite historically fit on Portugal. There must be other kind of reward for the exploration tree like - if there is any at all.

If included, feitoria should provide a trade bonus, the second of bonus can be either defensive or XP for naval units.

Carracks shouldn't be replacing privateers but caravels - simply because it isn't historically accurate. Although I find the idea of stacking a nau/carrack to a cargo ship very interesting.

I think it's irrelevant who wrote Magellan's pay check - he was still Portuguese. Anyway, the Spanish already have another UA that doesn't involve circumnavigation, so it's up for grabs, imo.

I think the Carrack replacing the Privateer is acceptable, especially since we have anachronitic precedents already (what is the Mohawk Warrior doing back in the Classical Era?).

Honestly, I don't think the Portuguese should get trade route bonuses outside of my proposed Carrack/Cargo Ship interaction. The way I've suggested it, Portugal is able to straddle both exploration and commercial advantages, while also promoting a sense of colonialism (through the extra bonus on Feitoria's on other continents).

The Dutch are the ones that should get a straight up trade route bonus added onto their UA. Perhaps Cargo Ships can defend themselves (since they'd basically be Dutch East Indiamen, which had a reputation for defending themselves against piracy).

How's this for the Carrack:

Carrack, replaces Privateer. Same stats as Privateer, but lacks the Coastal Raider and Prize Ship promotions. Is able to confer its movement speed to a Cargo Ship or embarked unit when stacked on top. Is able to heal +5 HP per turn, even when moving, but grants a gold bonus if destroyed/captured by the enemy.

This way, not only is it vulnerable to attack, but actually offers an incentive, which should appease you historically. On the other hand, if it survives an encounter, it is able to continue on without missing a beat, as it can heal on the move.

The Carrack makes sense, since it was a cargo ship that moved both people (embarked units) and goods (Cargo Ships).
 
For the love of all that is holy to you, stop calling the ship Carrack. When I first played BtS I went "What the hell is a carrack?! I've never heard of such a thing!" That's a spanish word and this is the Portuguese civilization, so both Firaxis and the players need to call it Nau. Now! (delicious pun intended)
 
For the love of all that is holy to you, stop calling the ship Carrack. When I first played BtS I went "What the hell is a carrack?! I've never heard of such a thing!" That's a spanish word and this is the Portuguese civilization, so both Firaxis and the players need to call it Nau. Now! (delicious pun intended)

A rose by any other name would sail just as sweet.

They're probably going to call it a carrack just because the term is familiar and ingrained. I wouldn't mind a bit if they surprised me and called it a Nau, however.

I don't know why I'm giving this so much thought now (wasn't thinking too hard on the Portuguese), but I'm having fun speculating. Hopefully my final idea:

UA: Age of Discovery Receive +50% :c5gold: gold when first meeting a City State; if you are the first to circumnavigate the globe, receive a free Social Policy and enter a Golden Age. Caravel available at Compass.

UU: Nau, replaces Privateer. Loses the Prize Ship and Coastal Raider promotions. When stacked on a Cargo Ship or embarked unit, confers its movement points to that unit. Is able to heal +5 health per turn regardless of movement or location. Provides a gold bonus if destroyed or captured.

UB: Feitoria, replaces Harbor. 4 :c5gold: maintenance. Adds 5 :c5strength: and +50 HP; if built in a city on another continent from your capital, each water tile worked by the city generates +1 :c5gold: gold.
 
Yes Magellan was in service of Spain so the first circumnavigation was a Spanish accomplishment.

What's historically inaccurate is having caravels and Carracks performing the same role. Carracks evolved into galleons but unfortunately they're not in the game. The Portuguese operated very much like pirates in the Indian Ocean.

So you propose that both caravels and naus/carracks should be in the game? And if so, when should naus/carracks appear in the game?

As for the portuguese operating very much like pirates in the Indian Ocean I must say: sorry but I don't agree. There may have some privateering but that was not the basis on which portuguese operate on the Indian ocean. They imposed themselves over the Mughal empire trade routes for example, but they also established very profitable trade routes through trade agreements with other nations, e.g. Siam. So having the carrack replacing the privateer simply doesn't go accurate. Privateering goes much more along with the way the english, french and dutch empires worked to disrupt spanish and portuguese trade routes.
 
Top Bottom