The Deity Challenge Line-up #14 - The Netherlands

Small Continents

Small Continents

Pangaea

a map that allows for every facet of the Netherlands' particularities to be explored in whatever playstyle you wish. The map is a random roll, but the opposition have been chosen to suit the map. It seems unfair to have Genghis and Ashurbanipal expected to provide proper opposition on a watery map. This should hopefully be a chance to showcase a tragically-under-discussed civ.

Nobody is going to argue about Poland being great (at least I hope nobody does), but I've had 2 or 3 of my best games with the Dutch. Doesn't look like I'll get the Floodplains I so love for them on this map, but I've got visions of orange-covered seas this game.

Wow, what an action packed start!

I discover pretty quickly that I'm on a very tight and crowded little "continent". I've seen bigger islands for the luv of gawd!!! Of course, I get to share it with two totally trustworthy ladies, in Dido and Lizzy. This is gonna get ugly very quickly. Plenty of good Polder spots, if I can get settlers out in time.

Ruins were pretty good, as I got culture, 1 pop, 90 gold, a map, and then found one just North of London that gave me Sailing. That's going to pay off.

I was first to find Jerusalem (I think that's the religious CS SE of me), so I'm going to go for a pantheon and hopefully religion. Immediately build a Shrine and get Goddess of Festivals. I'm now up to 6 FPT, with Shrines in both expos to be completed soon. If I can take out a barb camp with a scout, I'll be able to return Jerusalem's worker to them and I should be rolling in religion pretty early. None of the other Pantheons taken were faith based, so that's looking good (Lizzy took science from roads, but she's not going to get more than 3 expos up if I can grab that little spot between the CS out East).

I stole one of Lizzy's workers, but made peace pretty quickly. I was hard building an early settler to settle in Dido's face up by the lake (more good Polder locations and good strategic choke point), but Dido showed up with a settler. I had my warrior positioned nearby, so when the poor purple settler showed his face without an escort, I DoW'd. I immediately bought an archer and then hard built another (4 turns) and have been picking off her units ever since.

Liberty settler went West, which may be a mistake as I want that Eastern spot (Furs are already gone though), but Dido apparently already has Optics, so I need to keep her from expanding onto that peninsula. There may be room for a 5th city on Jerusalem's little island.

With all of this Wine, I'm going to need some drinking buddies. Time to build a Trireme, even if it can't be upgraded to a Sea Beggar later.

Very odd tech order for me, as circumstances necessitated a few off-path grabs:

Pottery > Archery > (It was crowded early) AH > Calendar (for wine) >Sailing (hut) > Optics (need to get exploring) > Mining > Masonry (for sugar and silk) > will now go Library > Philosophy > Construction (will need the comp bows AND Coliseums).

SP Order: Tradition Opener > Left side of Liberty > Unsure where I'll go next. Will probably need the worker so may as well finish Liberty. Pantheon should ensure good culture.

I'm currently building a Cargo Ship in capital, so hopefully it can reach London and help me catch up in science. If not, I'll send it to a CS and just rack up the gold.

There will be no peace for Dido until I've got 3 logistics comp bows. This is going to be a very slow and violent game, but at least I'm halfway to Sea Beggars already.

Absolutely love this change-up of a map. At this point, I have no clue what VC I'll be going for, but all Uniques will be used.

Well my population stinks, Oracle got built out from under me (that never happens), and I had to fight off two elephant invasions from Dido (built a trireme just in time). She offered 7 GPT in a trade deal, so I took it, being the greedy Dutchman that I am.

I've met everyone, and have traded away my last copy of everything, so I'm swimming in happiness and gold. My tech is OK, thanks to Cargo Ship to York, but I'm going to have to re-route and get some growth going.

I built 2 more setters, then realized that there was never any room to settle to the East, so I am now going for an island empire, settling on Jerusalem and Venice's islands. I bought libraries in both so NC is finally going to be built around t100. Of course, Venice has already co-opted the nearest CS, but I'm not going to give him open borders so he won't be able to get to Jerusalem, my only ally.

I got 5th religion, barely, and I'm still having trouble with the math regarding England, with no faith pantheon and only 2 cities getting a religion pretty much the turn after a pantheon (only a slight exaggeration). My religion will stink, as I got Tithe and Feed the World (incentive to build shrines and temples….which I'd ignore otherwise). I'm going to try to defend it though, for the culture boost.

Of course Dido asks for an embassy, then open borders. The following turn, she builds Statue of Zeuss. Freakin lovely. I'll be at Civil Service in about 12 turns, and will churn out some pikes. With my semi-experienced comp bows, I should be able to handle the elephant charge that I know is coming. Maybe I'll get lucky and she'll take out England so I don't have to worry about sea-dominance later on. Perhaps I'll see if I can arrange that conflict………..

Shark Diver is right. This continent is really small! I therefore chose Liberty for a fast expansion. Used units to block Dido from the lake and paid Dido to attack Liz, which for once she actually did, having to go through Bratislava to get there, which was an English ally at the time (doh!).

This war lasted for a long time, but as soon as they made peace they both turned on me. By this time I had 4 cities and although NC was really slow, happiness was good and I was trading luxes for gold to spend on units. My XBs took London. I needed boats to take Carthage. Once I had boats, I realised that Maria was such a runaway that probably the only way to stop her was war. So I went into full domination mode and concentrated on my economy and building lots of boats.

Venice was an easy pick on the way, but by the time war with Maria had started, the rest of the world DoW'ed me. Luckily only Maria seems to be a problem as she has submarines I can't yet see, and my tech has slowed so it might be a while before I can use Destroyers to find them.

My hopes are high that if I can take another city from Maria it will break her economy. My only fear is that by the time my ships make it to the Turks and the Moroccans, the cities there might be over 100 strength. We will see.

It's pretty much impossible to win a DomV on Deity against the whole world when they all DoW you, I think. I had a decent tech lead and an edge in units, but Maria somehow leap-frogged me and her submarines chewed up my frigates and UUs. The modern era for me was a yo-yo game. At one point I had over 100 units, another time I was reduced down to around 5 naval. At one point I had -45 happiness, and another I had +80 (after Prora and peace had come). So in this game, I started off thinking about peaceful diplomacy, then went to war to stop Maria from winning a sub-300 CV/SV, got the idea into my head I could win a DomV, gave up and went back to plan A...

But it's REALLY hard to win a DiploV when the number of 'alive' CS has been reduced to 8!

I had to push hard towards Globalisation and bribe the whole world to keep warring each other. I kept hold of the remaining CS by using the ton of GMs I made after stopping working all other specialist slots.

This was maybe the most insane game I ever played, and Suleiman was just unbeatable. Huge population and a crazy number of units. Deity is so silly for unit spam.

Not my ideal kind of map, even with Quick Movement turned on, but I probably learned a thing or two about not switching VCs

Social Policies: Full Liberty-Full Piety-Full Patronage-Secularism-Autocracy (bad mix I know)

I just finished winning WF (which I proposed, making the whole world even happier with me……..for now).

I got to Uni's around t115, so not too late, but didn't have enough pop to work specialists in all cities. I spent most of the last 75 years bribing (cheaply) the two lovely ladies to fight each other. No damage was done, but it bought me time.

So, what to do with the time? Get workshops built, get 5 cargo ships up and feeding cities, and hopefully get harbors built.

Tech order has been very odd. I had 3 RA's getting ready to come due, so I beelined Navigation. Then turned back to the bottom half to get to Workshops and Armories, and, of course, Economics (researched 3 turns into WF). Now it's off to complete Industrialization, hope I have coal, and get 3 factories up ASAP, as that'll be the fastest way to ideologies. I'm guessing I'll go Order for the factory science, but I may take Freedom for the FL's so I can concentrate on building ships instead of land units.

Culture, like everything else, has been odd. The plan was to open Exploration for the naval benefit, then fill out Commerce. However, my culture has been very slow, so instead I grabbed the +3 production in coastal cities (pretty much all cities), which helped a lot in WF. Now that I've won WF, I think I'll grab 3 quick tenets in Rationalism before ideologies, as I need to catch up in tech. I'm still sitting in 7th in tech, which is unusually bad.

Sully appears to be the semi-runaway, so I paid him to DoF 2nd place Maria about 5 turns before WF. Probably a good idea, but he's going to be a tough nut to crack.

My strategy now is going to get armories and ships built and take out Dido. London is going to be tough, as her harbor is basically a 1 boat canal, so I need to make sure my Frigates have logistics……unless I have my 6 FL's (doubt I'll be able to upgrade them soon) and can do some land damage. To that end, I'm now beelining Artillery.

Venice somehow snuck past me and now my only ally, Jerusalem, is wearing purple. That's frustrating and I really hate that bast@rd…..he's among the 3 most annoying AI's in the game, and he's even been my best buddy all game. GRRRRRRRRRRR!!!! I should be able to ally the CS next to England in a few turns, so that will help.

Ok, it's off to go build some boats. Time to paint the seas ORANGE!!!!



PS. I should mention that I haven't built a single Wonder……that might be a first for me.

Is it possible that England captured a GP that hadn't been used yet from another civ? Would that even work to found a religion for them?

I NEVER make friends with the nipple-headed one precisely because of his habit of stealing the CS I've invested probably 100s of gold in, as well as a sizeable number of turns doing quests, and hammers to make stuff to please them, trade route commitments, etc.

He needs to be taken out ASAP in every game. I only put him in this one to see how he'd behave when he had a larger number of trade partners. Funnily enough, he was weaker than on Pangaea because he was stretched further. I had hoped he would be a powerhouse and realise that with all his riches he needs a decent navy. Suleiman worked it out. Heck, even Ahmad cottoned on. But there is just something wrong with the algorithms in Ricky's head, and when my ships got to Venice there was no resistance. But this was made up for by the hallucinogenically-high number of ships Sully has at my current point in the game. I killed a bunch, then started counting, and it quickly went over 200. I hope I'm near the end of his economic ability to spam more. If not, then it shows how stupid Deity really can be. It's not realistic that he would have the money to buy them all.

I don't think Lizzy could have captured a GP. It was too early, and only 1 other civ had founded at that point. Also, I don't think anyone but me had Optics, so a GP couldn't have made it to our little island.

However, that does bring up a question: If you capture a GP, can you found a religion with it or is it always linked to the religion that spawned it? What if you capture the 1st GP in a game, before any religions are founded?

No, Cairnsy, what this was is another example of some silly AI math. Let's assume Lizzy built a shrine and temple in both cities. Thats (2 x 2) for the shrines and (2 x 4) for temples (If I recall, AI gets double faith from shrines and temples on Deity). She goes into Piety and gets +1 faith from shrines and temples (Organized Religion). I don't believe that this bonus is doubled, but it might be. So that's 16 FPT if that bonus isn't doubled and 24 FPT if it is doubled. It would still take her 9-13 turns after her non-faith pantheon to found and I swear to gawd that she founded 4-5 turns after her pantheon.

Anyone want to help me out on the math above?

PS. I love reading the write-ups too. This was my inspiration to start playing Deity/Standard games. It took me awhile to figure out how to download the games on my Mac, but since then I've been going back and am almost done playing all of the old DCL games.

I like that: "Nipplehead". From now on I'm calling him the Nipple Headed Ho.

(For the non-Americans, that's a take off from urban slang "Nappy Headed Ho"…….tis not a nice thing to say).

Yes, he must die. I just wish I could liberate those former CS.

Isn't she a sweetheart? See, she likes you so much she just wants to live next door.

I put a Warrior up there to prevent that.

Overrun by Carthaginian hordes in Second Punic War. (first on turn 75, gave away Rotterdam to end it, second on 107)

I'll be interested in how any of you who win managed to get any traction with the cap's low production.

(Ah, on reviewing the posts of the people who won or are thriving: getting Dido to fight England and buying time to get cities up.)

I got off to a good start in some ways. Pop goodie hut on turn 1. I'd earned Pottery by 8, when I hit my next goodie hut, for Writing!. Pop goodie hut right after Amsterdam reached 4. (Not that there was terribly much for my five citizens to do). Initially, Dido and Liz each ran a land and sea trade route to me. I was getting 12 bpt from them, while less than that from my own city. So good early science despite the slow pop growth. Friendships with Liz, Venice and Portugal, so plenty of places to sell my luxes. But no way, even with that, to keep up with Dido's military.

Ok I really do not like this Civ but the UA is helping me jump start the economy which is nice since it is pretty much War again for me!

I didn't like the start but since it is Small Cont Map I didn't want to try to find better land and hope a Civ is nearby even though I seen a couple of red dots with settler aiming. So I settled in place and thought about a food cargo ship growth game but that usually never happens for me. I found England pretty quick and Zurich as well. I wanted to go to war asap with Zurich but England had them under protection already at turn 2 or 3 lol!

That changed pretty quick when England left an open worker and I went to War! What the heck why not war with Zurich as well now since the protection penalty won't bother me now. I usually do not play such a great tactical game when I do this which is almost always. Anyway this game has been awesome for me. I have worker baited 2 Catapults, 3 Archers, and 1 Spear so far. Im also using the pillage/repair exploit on her horses to perfection! Workers are not a problem this game lol!

I met Carthage and the first order of business was to put her at war with England. She didn't do much since Im kinda taking all the land but she had a huge army very early. Nothing better than going to war with an army like that so I bribed her to go to War with Bratislava as well!!

The Vikings stopped by and are no help at all. They are at -6 gpt and nothing to trade! Later things will change since this is Deity and the AI can create massive amounts of gold with no problems!

So basically I went with a rapid expansion and would like another city or two but happy is an issue for now so it might just be 4 city Liberty with a fifth added later.

I did not even try for a religion even though I got 8 faith from the Israelites. They want me to kill a barb hut but no chance since it is across the water.

I decided to play a Liberty game since I need a break from Full Honor/Comm/Auto. I went down the left side first and now got the free worker. No Oracle this game as it went off on turn 71 which is why I am posting this picture. It is getting harder to get that Wonder even though I wasn't going for it anyway.

The plan is to kill England and Carthage in the near future and perhaps keep on with the wars with a Navy down the road. I may have to disband my army once I take over this Landmass!

B.O. was... The usual 3x scouts ( usually I do not build so many scouts on this map type but since I found England so fast I needed them to help with worker steals and killing Caravans which I got one. She has a cargo ship which I can't get but Dido allied up with Zurich which killed it anyway lol.

Back to the Build Order.... 3x Scouts, 2x Settlers, 2x Archers, Caravan into Carthage, Monument, Library. In the expos it was Monuments and after that Archers and Spears and now Libraries.

The one ruin that I got early and protected till my pop hit two and I finished Pottery gave me free Calendar which is very nice on this map. I did get one more later for some gold which is always nice as well!

Tech Order: Pot, Free Cal, Mining, AH, Beelined to Construction but held off with 2 turns to finish, Sailing, Writing, Finish Construction, Philo.

I sure am happy this isn't like the Poland game. I could use an easier game. Ofcourse going Full Liberty instead of Full Honor first makes it much smoother IMO. Not really alot to report. I wiped out Dido so I do not have to worry about any backstab. She got one good punch in and killed my idiot Comp Bow with an Elephant but I only seen 3 Elephants total the whole game. It was very nice that Bratislava had a Large Army. This is why I like to put a Civ at war with CS's. Sometimes they have a large army and sometimes you they get captured and you can Liberate them later. Actually I had to put her to war with them twice. I also put her to war with Venice right before my attack. I was upset with them walking a couple of spears on the wrong side of the Mtn. I think they were deserting lol!

Venice, Morocco, and Portugal all DOFed me which is great for trade gold. Gold is not at all a problem this game lol. Im at around 100 gpt before turn 100 which is very rare for me. I have to admit that the UA is pretty strong when you have this many luxes and friends. Im pretty sure the world will all hate me now though since I just wiped out two Civs.

I used the Liberty Finisher for the NC around turn 108 and I got Education on turn 118 which is a little late but I needed Optics. So the plan now is to tech up and maybe get Frigates but Im not sure. I get lazy at this point on a map like this. I pretty much built Markets in all the Expos and Annexed London which is going to be a nice city down the road.

After Philo my tech order was... Math, Currency, BW, Drama, Beeline to Civil, Theo and Edu. I was going to go for Engineers now but I guess Guilds first. I used some special forces through Bratislava which made them pretty angry. I would love to get them as an ally! I was getting close to getting the last Religion but did not get it so I will be happy to use Englands. It isn't great but at least it has Cathedrals. Im not sure if I can enhance it since it isn't mine. Im guessing no lol!

I put the Demos Pic up again on turn 119 to show that I am 1st in GNP now which is unheard of in my games!! Pure Fun! Although it is starting to feel like Emperor lol!

Ahhh yes but that is why I put them all at war with each other. Let them kill each other which helps them tech slower and lose units. I will also be putting them at war with CS's if they agree. Im teching pretty good right now and being able to buy anything at will with all this gold makes it very nice. Maria has all the wonders so I will be targeting her first. The funny thing is even after killing both of these Civs... I am not getting hardly any Warmonger Hate.

Yes my trades are a little lower but in reality it is worth it. I will most likely get Submarines asap and go kill any fleet that has a problem with us !

However I have blown easy games like this before but I really doubt that I can lose this one but as always time will tell. Sometimes Deity just feels easy like Emperor from time to time. Nothing wrong with the map or Civs in general and Im happy to have a nice relaxed game compared to the last one with Poland!

Let's see if it still feels like Emperor when Maria and Suleiman get their fleets properly filled out

I knew in the back of my mind things were too good to be true. I was going to prepare for a Naval war but I really didn't think they would attack. Even when the whole world denounced me I was like ahhhhh you guys aren't serious lol!

Ok so Portugal showed up and took Breda but I got it back but really didn't want it. Later she showed up at Carthage and I wasn't going to hold it and the same goes for York since Venice is on that side!

So what to do? Fire Sale! The only Civ not at war with me is Denmark and I sold all three cities to him cheap. I may have to sell another but I have some Frigates up now and my old Xbows are helping. Maybe I can get Denmark to war with one of them. Either way the game is alot of fun right now and I might get wiped out myself for being so foolish. This could of been avoided if I would of just beelined Navigation and used all the gold I had to build a Navy. Instead I bought things like Unis and Workshops and Cargo Ships and other things.

I guess researching Architecture was a dumb move. I also researched Physics thinking I would steal Navigation but I was fooled and only was able to steal Steel lol!

This should of been an easy win and I could of blocked alot of this but as usual I got cocky. I still think Im ok, I just need to beat back some of these ships and get some peace. If someone allies up Bratislava that would hurt! However since they are a Hostile CS it usually takes longer for the AI to ally up with them.