I have to the bloodthirsty one again?

I'm not sure how the warmonger rating works. I ask because I'm trying to not be hated by everyone in my current game, but 2 civs are plucking my last nerve and I'm seriously considering making them non-entities game wise. It'd be easy too.

Heres what happened....started as Arabia, found myself on a continent with good resources with Brazil and Polynesia nearby. Genghis Khan is all the way to the north. The usual "stop expanding, these lands are mine" requests came from Pedro and the Polynesian dude, but I ignored them. Even though Polynesia went way to the other side of the continent and up north a bit to settle one city there. Soon I had camel archers and swordsmen. Brazil and Polynesia both kept trying to get me to DoW on Genghis, whom I had no issues with. I sent some units up north just to see what was going on.

Genghis had three cities, one was a city state he had taken. But his units were all warriors. He had two catapults and maybe 2 horsemen. He was also sitting on one resource I didn't have, wine.

the mongol units were all heading to Polynesia's one northern city. They only had two others, southwest of me. Brazil only had two cities also. I had 7. and managed to keep the coin and happy going. But I thought if I let Genghis take these guys out, he'll be a pain in my side in the future. So I declared war, and Pedro did a turn after I did. I took two of his cities including the capital. Pedro got a few units of his killed real good and gave up.

Then he denounced me as a warmonger. Polynesia did too. I was like "Huh?" You asked me before to go to war with the mongols. If I hadn't he would have eaten you and your non-existent armies alive!". Then both of these ding dongs send missionaries into my territory, and both refuse to stop. Pedro built one more city. I retaliate by using missionaries to convert their cities...all six of them, put together. They get mad. Ok, I got it, they're programmed to get mad about it. But they shoulda seen it coming.

Meanwhile I meet some of the other civs on a different continent. By now I'm leading in science and discovered astronomy first. Issabella, Oda, Attilla, Monty. Then I get message from my spy. Pedro stole astronomy. (he doesn't even have a coastal city). I ask him to stop spying. He tells me to **** myself. Polynesia denounces me again.

Seriously, that tears it. I don't want to be "the bloodthirsty one" this game, but these two are only going to act against me aggressively as they can for the rest of the game. I'm thinking of taking all of their cities leaving them isolated with one city each. According to the trade window I'm at least 6 to 7 techs ahead of them, and I have gunpowder. They have no forces to speak of. Not any that will give me any problems.

I can't think of anyway to NOT be called a warmonger if I do, but they've poked the tiger too many times. Pedro at the very least must be brought to heel.

Forget about them. AI are bickering idiots. If you've met no one else wipe them out. They are always mad at you if you expand rapidly, take anyones cities (including warmongers) by force, or convert their lands. Just how it is. If you want to keep 'em friendly you should have gone to war with them on your side and made friends first. Friends and war partners will perceive your warmonger hit as "reduced". So the fact that you declared war before they did means you got the full warmonger hit with both civs. One way to avoid this is go to war together or bribe them to enter war a turn or so before you declare. Then you are "war buddies". Otherwise, you are just some guy that declared war on another "out of the blue" as far as they are concerned. The fact that they entered later makes no difference, though since they hated mongols that helps you some already. They call you a warmonger:

#1 because you declared war first
#2 because you took 2 mongol cities including his capital (bad)

In their eyes, if you were truly a peacemaker you would've taught him a lesson without doing all that "conquering", otherwise, you are clearly a warmonger, and went to war because you wanted cities. Taking cities in a peace deal is not seen this way, just conquering them.

Liberating the CS mongolia conquered will bring down your warmonger score a lot. That's reviving a "dead civ" a huge plus in the AI's eyes and will brand you a peacemaker, but even that won't overcome all the negatives you've incurred already. It'll help though.

By the way, the AI always missionary spam people they dislike. They will not do this as much if you are a good friend as it is an act of "betrayal". Regardless, missonary spam is easy to deal with as long as prophets don't come. Just don't give open borders and use your troops to block missionaries in your territory till attrition kills them. An inquisitor nearby helps too, just move him around. Missionaries and prophets can't convert near an inquisitor.

Kamehameha and Pedro are clearly incompetent leaders.

I think it is your honourable duty to liberate the populations who now must live under their terrible rule.

danaphanous said:

By the way, the AI always missionary spam people they dislike. They will not do this as much if you are a good friend as it is an act of "betrayal". Regardless, missonary spam is easy to deal with as long as prophets don't come. Just don't give open borders and use your troops to block missionaries in your territory till attrition kills them. An inquisitor nearby helps too, just move him around. Missionaries and prophets can't convert near an inquisitor.

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I've had AIs that I was friendlywith suddenly spam me with missionaries--and this is usually after I've made a DOF with them. Then the floodgates open!

LIke you said--inquisitors help a lot.

What I hate is when they convert all my city state allies (who have my religion) to theirs.

EDIT: And I know some people have claimed that the AI missionaries and GPs will usually only concentrate on my capital, but that is not true. They will try to convert any city I have.

I guess you just took his last city, thats the problem, not the fact that you got his cap. Taking cap or any other city brings basicly same modifier. All what matters is how many cities he has at this point. If he has only 2 and you take one - you will get major, if you take the last - its gonna be extreme. The major will not be so severe, as you fought common enemy, denounced same dude, etc, but extreme is something you really want to avoid.

If you want it to be less bad, make sure you have DoF with people who you want to be on your side, and if you can bribe them to into a DoW. That'll make it a lot easier on your warmongering penalty. Players you don't want to be friends with you don't need to. Can even set up a large fight like that; half the world on your side with defensive pacts, the other half of the world DoWs you and then suddenly everyone is at war

"What I hate is when they convert all my city state allies (who have my religion) to theirs."


From my experiences, I love this because it is basically a free 40 influence when my religion naturally spreads back to them. (thank you Itinerant Preachers)

danaphanous said:

Forget about them. AI are bickering idiots. If you've met no one else wipe them out. They are always mad at you if you expand rapidly, take anyones cities (including warmongers) by force, or convert their lands. Just how it is. If you want to keep 'em friendly you should have gone to war with them on your side and made friends first. Friends and war partners will perceive your warmonger hit as "reduced". So the fact that you declared war before they did means you got the full warmonger hit with both civs. One way to avoid this is go to war together or bribe them to enter war a turn or so before you declare. Then you are "war buddies". Otherwise, you are just some guy that declared war on another "out of the blue" as far as they are concerned. The fact that they entered later makes no difference, though since they hated mongols that helps you some already. They call you a warmonger:

#1 because you declared war first
#2 because you took 2 mongol cities including his capital (bad)

In their eyes, if you were truly a peacemaker you would've taught him a lesson without doing all that "conquering", otherwise, you are clearly a warmonger, and went to war because you wanted cities. Taking cities in a peace deal is not seen this way, just conquering them.

Liberating the CS mongolia conquered will bring down your warmonger score a lot. That's reviving a "dead civ" a huge plus in the AI's eyes and will brand you a peacemaker, but even that won't overcome all the negatives you've incurred already. It'll help though.

By the way, the AI always missionary spam people they dislike. They will not do this as much if you are a good friend as it is an act of "betrayal". Regardless, missonary spam is easy to deal with as long as prophets don't come. Just don't give open borders and use your troops to block missionaries in your territory till attrition kills them. An inquisitor nearby helps too, just move him around. Missionaries and prophets can't convert near an inquisitor.

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At this point I'm not interested in getting any AI to like me. Its probably too late. After my initial post I went back in. Polynesia kept bugging me with missionary spam so I took them out. Everyone else had denounced me before, so I figured WTH. I was preparing to take Pedro out later but then all of a sudden he's FRIENDLY. He wants to swap embassies. Ok. Then the next turn he's hostile and denounced me. So it was a pleasure to take him out and the wonders he had in his cap.

I didn't know the missionaries couldn't convert near an inquisitor. Good to know.

Right now except for Mongolia's stolen CS I have the continent and a lot of lux and strategic resources. I don't *need* the other civs, but they *need* me as much as the call asking for lux resources. They all barely have one each, but they don't like me so they won't offer a deal I'll accept. According to the overview the closest rival I have is Spain now and she's 6 techs behind me with few cities. Attila has a small piece of another continent and recently went from friendly to hostile. I'd blow it off but he's done the old I'll insult you between turns" things too much. The trade screen says I'm 21 techs ahead of him. Time for Attila to meet some tanks.

Judging by your posts, you are getting a warmonger reputation accurately.

roscoepfox said:

At this point I'm not interested in getting any AI to like me. Its probably too late. After my initial post I went back in. Polynesia kept bugging me with missionary spam so I took them out. Everyone else had denounced me before, so I figured WTH. I was preparing to take Pedro out later but then all of a sudden he's FRIENDLY. He wants to swap embassies. Ok. Then the next turn he's hostile and denounced me. So it was a pleasure to take him out and the wonders he had in his cap.

I didn't know the missionaries couldn't convert near an inquisitor. Good to know.

Right now except for Mongolia's stolen CS I have the continent and a lot of lux and strategic resources. I don't *need* the other civs, but they *need* me as much as the call asking for lux resources. They all barely have one each, but they don't like me so they won't offer a deal I'll accept. According to the overview the closest rival I have is Spain now and she's 6 techs behind me with few cities. Attila has a small piece of another continent and recently went from friendly to hostile. I'd blow it off but he's done the old I'll insult you between turns" things too much. The trade screen says I'm 21 techs ahead of him. Time for Attila to meet some tanks.

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But there's always something that your citizens demand that you don't have. The annoying part about being Denounced and hated is that when you trade, they'll absolutely rape you in the exchange, like 10 resources to 1.

roscoepfox said:

At this point I'm not interested in getting any AI to like me. Its probably too late. After my initial post I went back in. Polynesia kept bugging me with missionary spam so I took them out. Everyone else had denounced me before, so I figured WTH. I was preparing to take Pedro out later but then all of a sudden he's FRIENDLY. He wants to swap embassies. Ok. Then the next turn he's hostile and denounced me. So it was a pleasure to take him out and the wonders he had in his cap.

I didn't know the missionaries couldn't convert near an inquisitor. Good to know.

Right now except for Mongolia's stolen CS I have the continent and a lot of lux and strategic resources. I don't *need* the other civs, but they *need* me as much as the call asking for lux resources. They all barely have one each, but they don't like me so they won't offer a deal I'll accept. According to the overview the closest rival I have is Spain now and she's 6 techs behind me with few cities. Attila has a small piece of another continent and recently went from friendly to hostile. I'd blow it off but he's done the old I'll insult you between turns" things too much. The trade screen says I'm 21 techs ahead of him. Time for Attila to meet some tanks.

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I know this feeling well.... get it off the french and siam all the time...... few tanks and bomber strikes get them back in line lol

eris said:

Judging by your posts, you are getting a warmonger reputation accurately.

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Funny thing is I set out at the start to be world leader. But I soon figured out everyone hated me too much for that. Even when I tried to make amends by giving gifts, etc someone (usually Pedro, that's why he had to go) would denounce me and the AIs would all dogpile denouncements. So I decided to be a jerk about it.

Pedro folded fast once I had flight. Than Genghis decided to bark at me with his one stolen CS. I took it in three turns and returned it.

...and I won, via Spaceship. I was so far ahead of them all by the end I even took my time building the SS parts in my lowest production cities.

Trackmaster said:

But there's always something that your citizens demand that you don't have. The annoying part about being Denounced and hated is that when you trade, they'll absolutely rape you in the exchange, like 10 resources to 1.

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Not anymore. I tried to get spice from Japan and Oda wanted way too much. So I demanded it. He told me "over his dead body". So I took his city with the resource. That was big talk for a guy that still was using samurai in the modern age.

glasgowgsxr750 said:

I know this feeling well.... get it off the french and siam all the time...... few tanks and bomber strikes get them back in line lol

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Yeah by the end of the game I had crazy resources with my bazaars. I think the only thing I lacked was pearls and whales and I got that from a few CS's. It helped. I was able to bribe the others to DoW on Attila before I attacked so I wouldn't get a big diplo hit. Not that it mattered.

The first reply alluded to this, but if you want to snap someone in half without massive diplo hits, your best bet is to kill off all of their units and only take their cities through peace deals. The initial DoW will still give you a warmonger penalty of course but it can be overcome.

If you don't mind exploiting the game, you could also bribe your target to DoW on the entire world and then turn around and declare war yourself. They'll still be at war with everyone and you'll get all your GPT and resources back. This might be hard to do though if they're not an aggressive civ/don't like you.

Lanijon said:

The first reply alluded to this, but if you want to snap someone in half without massive diplo hits, your best bet is to kill off all of their units and only take their cities through peace deals. The initial DoW will still give you a warmonger penalty of course but it can be overcome.

If you don't mind exploiting the game, you could also bribe your target to DoW on the entire world and then turn around and declare war yourself. They'll still be at war with everyone and you'll get all your GPT and resources back. This might be hard to do though if they're not an aggressive civ/don't like you.

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At the beginning of the game when Brazil and the Hula guy asked me to join them in fighting Genghis I declined at first because I had no idea how weak or strong he was, just that they were scared of him. When I did see his three cities I realized he had a lot of units but they were mostly warriors. He had 2 catapults and one horseman.

I DoW'd him because I knew if got some iron he might be a threat later in the game. That's what started the issues with "warmongering". I should have gotten the others to join me but honestly I didn't think they'd be much help. I've fought wars like that with AI allies and sometimes they drop out of the war too soon or don't really send any units. Occasionally they'll jump in and take a city after I've bombarded it.

dragonxxx said:

Taking cap or any other city brings basicly same modifier. All what matters is how many cities he has at this point. If he has only 2 and you take one - you will get major, if you take the last - its gonna be extreme. The major will not be so severe, as you fought common enemy, denounced same dude, etc, but extreme is something you really want to avoid.

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I've heard that capitals are the same as others as well, but I'm not so sure it's true. I mean, that would make sense from a coding perspective I guess if you were being lazy, but every time a capital is conquered it announces the fact to the whole world even if you don't know those players yet. I assumed the AI would get to same notifications and get worried as capitals are how you win in conquest. It always seemed to AI became cautious and fearful when I took a capital even if they had other cities left, but that could be a variety of other factors too as you said:

1. It is their 2nd to last city so you get "major" penalty
2. It is the biggest and best city and probably contains wonders and works = AI getting jealous of you.

I noticed even if taking a capital is "minor" penalty AI respond to it because of the increase in your score, wonders, and works. I took a cultural civ's capital in this situation and got 4 DOWs in rapid succession on Deity as all my neighbors got jealous and tried to seize it for themselves. This was even my war partners who backstabbed me, while still trying to finish off the civ in question. But in retrospect it may not have been the capital status, so much as all the stuff in it. I took about 60 tourism from works and 5 wonders--my score shot up and I was no longer "small fry". Luckily the only civ that had a technology lead on me was the guy I just crippled so after a tense decade I got more gatlings and GW infantry out and destroyed the invaders. The fact that my war partner kept fighting the weakened civ too turned out to be a boon. She finished him off--I destroyed her army and liberated him for a nullification of my warmonger score and a huge increase in hers. She spent the rest of the game being hated while everyone forgave me later and let me sail into an easy science victory.

I was really surprised by the DOWs though--I had not realized the AI responded so much to the statistics and score system--that was when I learned that they are more responsive than I thought.

roscoepfox said:

At the beginning of the game when Brazil and the Hula guy asked me to join them in fighting Genghis I declined at first because I had no idea how weak or strong he was, just that they were scared of him. When I did see his three cities I realized he had a lot of units but they were mostly warriors. He had 2 catapults and one horseman.

I DoW'd him because I knew if got some iron he might be a threat later in the game. That's what started the issues with "warmongering". I should have gotten the others to join me but honestly I didn't think they'd be much help. I've fought wars like that with AI allies and sometimes they drop out of the war too soon or don't really send any units. Occasionally they'll jump in and take a city after I've bombarded it.

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I get why you declared war on him, I was just saying that after you did, you shouldn't have taken any of his cities by force, but instead killed his units and taken cities through peace. If a civ only has 3 cities and you conquer even 1, much less 2, you'll get huge warmonger penalties, but if he surrendered those cities to you then nobody else will care. You'd only get the small penalty for initially declaring war, but that would've been completely wiped out when you liberated the CS.

In case I didn't explain the 2nd part well enough -- In the situation you were in in your first post, it would've been like paying Brazil a bunch of GPT to DoW everyone and then immediately declaring war on Pedro. Everyone in the world hates him now and you lose nothing. The point isn't to get help in your war, but to ruin Pedro's influence with other leaders and ensure you'll still have friends and trading partners once the dust has settled.

roscoepfox said:

Yeah by the end of the game I had crazy resources with my bazaars. I think the only thing I lacked was pearls and whales and I got that from a few CS's. It helped. I was able to bribe the others to DoW on Attila before I attacked so I wouldn't get a big diplo hit. Not that it mattered.

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sounds good, never really bothered about a diplo hit tbh..... I'm far too trigger happy for that XD

Lanijon said:

I get why you declared war on him, I was just saying that after you did, you shouldn't have taken any of his cities by force, but instead killed his units and taken cities through peace. If a civ only has 3 cities and you conquer even 1, much less 2, you'll get huge warmonger penalties, but if he surrendered those cities to you then nobody else will care. You'd only get the small penalty for initially declaring war, but that would've been completely wiped out when you liberated the CS.

In case I didn't explain the 2nd part well enough -- In the situation you were in in your first post, it would've been like paying Brazil a bunch of GPT to DoW everyone and then immediately declaring war on Pedro. Everyone in the world hates him now and you lose nothing. The point isn't to get help in your war, but to ruin Pedro's influence with other leaders and ensure you'll still have friends and trading partners once the dust has settled.

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I wish I had thought of that earlier. (I did by the time I was ready to go to war with Attilla. ) The thing that annoyed me is that throughout the game I could be at peace for periods of time but Polynesia and Pedro would continue to denounce me. They would even get to "Friendly" for a turn or so then denounce me again. That's when I decided just to kill both of them. They'd already ruined my reputation for the game so I figured why bother even dealing with 'em.