Losing in Science as India. What Went Wrong?

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mrsmile

Chieftain
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Jun 29, 2014
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I am playing an India on King difficulty as I wanted to win in science. Somehow I was only 1% ahead from the average score. I try to keep the number of my cities to the minimum. I have all the science wonder buildings. We are now in Renaissance era and the Huns are ahead in almost everything. As of the 50th turn they are ahead of me in science.

Whenever possible I build science buildings and try to get my happiness as high as possible. What could I have done wrong?
 
If you are playing a standard game, do not bother looking at the demographics until turn 100 at the very least, but at higher difficulties, it takes some time to overcome the AI's start bonuses. On Immortal, I don't usually take the lead in tech until after turn 150. It is too early to worry about your science progression at turn 50.
 
Just one criticism, can we start putting the pics onto this site here? I can't see that save.
 
The basics are:

1. Build granary and then library as soon as possible
2. Build every available food building you can (but keep your civ happy)
3. Beeline down tradition to the growth policies at least and ideally finish it for free aqueducts
4. Build the national college as soon as you possibly can, rushing/buying/chopping libraries as you need to go get it done -- ideally by turn 80 no later than 100
5. On tech, beeline to civil service (for the food) and then education
6. Get universities up in all your cities as soon as you possibly can
7. Keep specialists working in the universities
8. Settle all great scientists until public schools
9. Beeline to public schools and get them up in at least your main science buildings
10. Take rationalism as soon as it is available and run the whole tree

And during all of this obviously send traderoutes to whoever has higher science, and use your spies to steal techs. Oh, and don't let the city manager assign your citizens, do it yourself, to make sure that they are working all the good food tiles, working any great tiles, and working in the universities. If you HAVE to use the city manager, put it on science focus, and still at least check what it is doing now and then and fix its mistakes.

If you do all that you will be a science juggernaut no matter what civ you play.

On King you should surpass them pretty quick. On higher difficulty levels the above formula might not make you the science leader until around public schools or maybe even later.
 
You can also go to the strategy and tips section. You might be able to find a good science strategy there..
 
Xiao Xiong said:
The basics are:

1. Build granary and then library as soon as possible
2. Build every available food building you can (but keep your civ happy)
3. Beeline down tradition to the growth policies at least and ideally finish it for free aqueducts
4. Build the national college as soon as you possibly can, rushing/buying/chopping libraries as you need to go get it done -- ideally by turn 80 no later than 100
5. On tech, beeline to civil service (for the food) and then education
6. Get universities up in all your cities as soon as you possibly can
7. Keep specialists working in the universities
8. Settle all great scientists until public schools
9. Beeline to public schools and get them up in at least your main science buildings
10. Take rationalism as soon as it is available and run the whole tree

And during all of this obviously send traderoutes to whoever has higher science, and use your spies to steal techs. Oh, and don't let the city manager assign your citizens, do it yourself, to make sure that they are working all the good food tiles, working any great tiles, and working in the universities. If you HAVE to use the city manager, put it on science focus, and still at least check what it is doing now and then and fix its mistakes.

If you do all that you will be a science juggernaut no matter what civ you play.

On King you should surpass them pretty quick. On higher difficulty levels the above formula might not make you the science leader until around public schools or maybe even later.
Click to expand...

thanks for the advice about beelining. i tend to use my culture point into unlocking different categories most of the time to meet the prerequisite to some buildings.

most of the time, i put a point in liberty and then another point into the one that reduces tile improvement and a free worker. and then i will move on to a point in tradition and a point in the policy that increases wonder production rate. and then a few points here and there between tradition and liberty. when i'm about to finish the tech that allows you to build forbidden palace, i unlock patronage so that i get 2 extra delegates.

i find it difficult to rush science and wonder at the same time because wonder production. sometimes when i'm building a science building i move my workers to production tiles. not sure if that's a good move or will it allow other players to catch up to me on science.
 
mrsmile said:
i find it difficult to rush science and wonder at the same time because wonder production. sometimes when i'm building a science building i move my workers to production tiles. not sure if that's a good move or will it allow other players to catch up to me on science.
Click to expand...

As I mentioned before, on any difficulty past Prince, you start at a disadvantage. Turn 50 is not the time to worry about not having the lead.

As to your question, for the most part, you want food, food and more food. When building settlers, you need to find a balance, as growth is halted, and build time is king. Don't discount gold production either. You should try to avoid most wonders early on. The only exceptions may be Petra, Hanging Gardens and of course Nation College. You might be able to squeeze in Temple of Artemis too. If you haven't figured out, all those are food producing wonders. It might be worth rushing a little for any of those wonders, but do not sacrifice much.

The only other time you might not go crazy on growth is before you build your 2nd city, so that you have enough happiness to found it, but that usually isn't an issue, unless your city reaches pop 4 by turn 30.

You might find you can sacrifice 1 food for a few hammers or gold occasionally, but be sure your cities are growing fast. Having a big population is what generates science.
 
there is something about petra i don't quite understand. does it provide +1 food for EACH desert tile or all desert tiles together provide only +1 food. i'm under the impression that it's the former or else nobody would even bother building it, right?

also when should i build my 2nd city? lets consider 2 separate situation: 1 for other civ and 1 for India
 
Thing about India is the they get 1/2 unhappiness from people & people = science. So as India you want to build a bunch of cities who all have high population, which you can do since the unhappiness is halved. With all that population, your science will be amazing! Also general science tips:
Spoiler :

1. Adopt Rationalism
2. Make friends & sign research agreements
3. Build science, food, & happiness buildings in that order
4. Adopt tradition
5. Make cities work food tiles
6. Laugh at how backwards and tiny your neighbors are.
7. ???
8. Profit!
 
mrsmile said:
there is something about petra i don't quite understand. does it provide +1 food for EACH desert tile or all desert tiles together provide only +1 food. i'm under the impression that it's the former or else nobody would even bother building it, right?

also when should i build my 2nd city? lets consider 2 separate situation: 1 for other civ and 1 for India
Click to expand...

Petra gives 1f1h to every non floodplain desert tile. It works best with farmed freshwater hills (3f3h) or sheep (3f4h with a stable). Farmed flat desert next to an oasis is also okay, but only because the game undervalues desert and Petra converts to plains.

I build my second city at 2 population or right after I bud a granary if I have 2 wheat, banana or deer. The quicker you can get a city down, the better. This works better on immortal or harder, as you don't have to build workers.
 
what exactly is food growth and how do you calculate it?

wiki says that food growth is calculated from food basket. is this basket the base value you get when you have the total food unit-food eaten?

also, is it better to adopt the policy under tradition that speeds up production of wonder by 15% or the one that gives +2 food in capital and 10% food growth. it takes 30 turns to build great library without any policy by the way.
 
mrsmile said:
what exactly is food growth and how do you calculate it?

wiki says that food growth is calculated from food basket. is this basket the base value you get when you have the total food unit-food eaten?

also, is it better to adopt the policy under tradition that speeds up production of wonder by 15% or the one that gives +2 food in capital and 10% food growth. it takes 30 turns to build great library without any policy by the way.
Click to expand...


Growth = (total food) - (food used). A better name might be 'surplus food'. Every bit of surplus food is added to a counter, and when the counter gets high enough another citizen is born.

The game is really, really misleading in how the math works sometimes. Most +growth effects multiply surplus food, so the formula might look like

Growth = [(total food) - (food used)]*1.15

The exceptions are the Temple of Artemis and the Floating Gardens. Those multiply the total food, making them much stronger effects. If you only have 2 surplus food, 10% extra growth turns that into 2.2: another citizen will eat the last two food, and you stop growing. The Gardens count based on total food: If your city generates 20 food total, less eighteen eaten by its citizens for example, the Gardens provide an extra 3 food for 5 surplus instead of 2.

India's good because they have the Happiness to keep growing (sometimes), but the Aztecs can actually grow faster provided they get the smiles to sustain growth.
 
here's a question on happiness. does population grow at the same rate at 50 happiness as it does at 10 happiness (i.e. population grows at the same rate as long the happiness is above zero)? or the higher the happiness, the faster population grows?
 
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