Are Zulus OP ?

I play against Shaka on Pangea, Deity. He is so strong that i cant defend my cities anymore. So my question is Are Zulus OP ?

no, the huns are the overpowered war civ. they can take a capital down by turn 10 just by finding a hut that upgrades their warrior. Plus the horse archers that don't need horses and can be spammed to oblivion? Zuwho?

fallout3dc said:

no, the huns are the overpowered war civ. they can take a capital down by turn 10 just by finding a hut that upgrades their warrior. Plus the horse archers that don't need horses and can be spammed to oblivion? Zuwho?

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That is true. But I beat Atilla on Prince and Immortal. Maybe I am still not ready for Deity.

If you don't start close to the Zulus, then by Industrial game, then they are not overpowered at all, but are instead under powered then as they won't keep up in science. (They aren't going to even build libraries on the lands they capture from the neighboring AIs; that is if they even succeed in capturing them, on Deity in early game the other AIs are in much better shape to defend themselves against them than the human is thanks to the AI handicaps.)

yeah, they are OP

Shakas the scariest guy to start next to for me. All you can do to survive is pay him to war elsewhere or settle really really defensively.

Attila a close second because at least his hard counter (Pikemen) comes with Civil Service. Shakas hard counter (the atomic bomb) comes kinda late

Shaka and the Huns are both OP in war in Multi. In ranked matches its like an instant win with their units (including other stuff like Camel archers) The AI can't handle the Huns well however, but when it can handle the Zulus well (and it decently can) - then you know its OP.

I love Shaka. Shaka is not OP in general, but can be in certain situations, and certainly has a military edge on types of maps and over the medieval/early renaissance. He's real good for a time as a bunch of his bonuses come in at the same time. Ikanda, and impi tech, plus his 50% reduced melee support cost means he can spam impi with almost all 3 buffalo promos right off the bat. This gives him huge flanking advantages, cover promotions, extra movement, double exp (due to free throw attack), and gold advantages. All he needs to do is spam them and he has about a 2 to 1 advantage over most of the medieval. If a few survive they quickly became monsters with 5-6 promotions including city-taking abilities. He doesn't even need siege. worse, his impi upgrade to riflemen so if he isn't stupid and keeps his elite swarm around instead of suiciding them before the tech against gatlings and musketmen. He can do it all again with 3-move riflemen and all those OP buffalo promotions. I've conquered the whole world and subued 7 other players by riflemen doing this and keeping the elites alive. But shaka can just as easily suck if he can't conquer someone or if he overextends as all he knows is war. He'll tick off everyone and can be easily scapegoated for a gang-up.

Facts:

1. He will war with someone as its his personality
2. If you are relatively near him it is usually you on higher levels as you have the weakest military
3. He can be bribed for almost nothing (just a few gpt or some extra resources) so the best counter over the medieval period until you get castles and crossbowmen/longswords is to pay him to war other neighbors, feed him some trade routes, and trade with him a lot. You want him to like you and be busy attacking other people. If you let him be he'll probably choose to attack you so you have to be proactive.
4. If he is your only neighbor on a continent or refused to be bribed, war is almost inevitable. If he hasn't attacked someone yet, he always does once he gets his impi. They descend in swarms. The ikanda bonus gives them a natural cover promotion and flanking bonuses (which get high due to swarms). He can keep them for 50% reduced maintenance cost, and they get 3 movement, double exp (so they juggernaut quickly if you let some repeatedly survive) and will pillage you like crazy.

Tips to survive:

• build a few front-line forts, especially on hills in preparation in your closest city.
• Build cities on hills with a mountain or two limiting access points.
• Build early walls.
• Don't build horse units (they will get massacred) Instead sell all of them to other AI for gold. I might keep 1 around for quick finishing strikes, but they die really easily against impi so they are not a good investment unless you are sure you can hit and run.
• Build hilltop roads with quick escape routes so your archers can run in, shoot, and retreat, overcoming his extra movement. This also allows you to replace a fallen pikeman and immediately fortify the same turn. (but it will take a couple turns to get up to the full bonus again)
• move your own pikemen onto your forts and hills and behind rivers--next to each other. (make a defensive line for the flanking bonus. and fortify. Which, after 2 turns, gives you an increased defense of 40%. This is 15% stronger then the "alert" or "fortify till healed" commands.
• Get a GG quickly and plant in the city. If the siege is long you'll get another. Use it to steal his territory if he's close and make a strong point, pushing the battle farther from your city. Put your strongest defensive unit in it for a 100% defense bonus and it'll act as a magnet for distraction and kill a lot of impi in the process.
• If possible, get a medic promotion on a few back-line troops to accelerate healing on your defensive line. This is a good use for old warriors/swordsmen which will get slaughtered by impi otherwise.
• set up a few bombarding units behind your defensive line to fire over.
• beeline crossbowmen. They will turn the tide and won't get one-shotted by impi.
• If you can't get a suit for peace due a high-production shaka producing a steady stream of impi and never perceiving you as winning (even though you're killing everything he sends), I've had success in pillaging missions. AI are pretty likely to sue for peace even if they are stronger if you are able to pillage a lot of tiles in their empire. They perceive the damage you are doing as far more then the troops they are losing on your line. Shaka is a hard one for this as his impi are good at chasing down and get a huge bonus vs. horse units (the normal choice). A good guy for this is the Landsknecht from the commerce tree. They're cheap and can pillage twice a turn. They'll be chased down and die against impi fairly quickly but may capture and disband a few workers or pillage 8 tiles or so before they do. A few of these missions and even mighty shaka may get annoyed and finally ask for peace.
• in especially desperate situations, logistics and range archers can make all the difference and really tear him up as you get twice the bombards and exp. If you get a few logistics AND crossbowmen the battle is over. He will probably flank and kill archers before they get to this point and it takes forever due to low exp yield of bombarding, so in prep you can siege a CS and just shoot at the city for hundreds of years. Eventually you'll get multiple logistics bowmen before he ever attacks you. Repelling invasions with a good road network, defensive line, hills, and logistics bowmen is cake, even shaka can't handle it, and will lose everything he sends.

Being on a hill, fully fortified, with a fort, flanking bonus, etc, will give you over 100% boost to your defense, so your pikemen will fight better than a musketmen. Do this with a citadel and fully-fortified pikemen and he will be stronger than a rifleman. Then just ride the storm. Even shaka will find such points hard to overcome. Don't unfortify, otherwise you'll start to lose due to his impi advantages. Try to take down wounded impi with CBs behind the lines and city fire. If you have a healing promo and great general nearby your troops will get massive heal bonuses each turn too as well as a boost to defense and offense, yet again. AI is not this smart and will break on you like water. Eventually he'll give up. I was able to make him pay 2 or 3 for 1 with normal pikemen vs. his overpowered impi. Then had enough time to focus on science and other things with the occasional replenishing of a pikemen or archer. It is tough but winnable.

Disident said:

I play against Shaka on Pangea, Deity. He is so strong that i cant defend my cities anymore. So my question is Are Zulus OP ?

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Well, I played against Shaka on Prince and he destroyed my Naresuan elephants and razed Muang Saluang with only Impis. So yes, he's op.

fallout3dc said:

no, the huns are the overpowered war civ. they can take a capital down by turn 10 just by finding a hut that upgrades their warrior. Plus the horse archers that don't need horses and can be spammed to oblivion? Zuwho?

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The AI handles Zulu way better ...

Yeah, not to mention battering rams are easily to kill and suicide themselves. Just run in with some spearmen and they'll be dead in seconds. I held off loads of them with elephant archers even. Despite their cover--they are only good against lightly defended cities otherwise they are too vulnerable.

@danaphanous - thats nice tips. I can add some more from my immortal xp vs him (but I am pretty sure that works on deity too):

do not wait for him to declare, if you cannot bribe him to go elsewhere and see impis dancing around your borders - ally a nearby CS if possible and declare war. Its quite easier to kill em before they consolidate.

I had a very nice game with me being his only neighbour, where I forward settled him twice Think 5 wars in total - 3 defensive, 1 to get Bulwayo and 1 to finish him off.

thanks @dragonxxx My exp. was also immortal level. That's a good point about taking the battle to him. With shaka, hurting him early before impi can be especially effective though even early he keeps a huge military. Perhaps even use an insta-DOW on contact and steal his starting worker to slow him down before he knows the location of your capital. This can be really effective for early pillage gold and free workers if you keep the battle going. And it is a free DOW too.

I have had one bad experience trying a preemptive strike too late though when I tried to hit him before impi, but he got impi a few turns after I declared and had set up my siege. I conquered the city, but 1 turn later an impi invasion wiped out all my catapults and retook the city. It flip-flopped 4 times before he finally pushed me back. It may have been worth it to cripple that city, but I'd say, if you're gonna do it, do it early before you're facing impi, being on offense against them is tough, and unlike him, you have a lot fewer units you can afford to lose. That is when I switched to defense mode. How many units did you need to bring him to heel with the preemptive strike? I only had 8 or so, so that could have been my problem.

Pf, I don't really remember, that was quite long ago. I had something like 3CBs that I upgraded to XB when I saw army gathering near my borders. Terrain is good, as Seville is behind rivers on a hill, and barcelona is practicly untakable by land. So I killed all the impi, then did a citadel and fortified a pikeman inside waiting for the waves -> with 6-7 XB at this point nothing was surviving long to tell tales.

After this I attacked him again - just to farm xp and reduce units. Planted a second citadel. And after that the real war started when I put the third citadel next to Bulwayo, as there is a lot of jungle in front of it, so it was impossible to take otherway without great army. And that was basicly it, in the next war I had artileries so I finished him off

Shaka is very loyal. If you can buddy up with him, he's very unlikely to backstab you. This is especially true if he has someone else to beat up and doubly true if you participate in beating up that person.

Basically, his AI is no Wu or Caesar

Well every civs are OP in good dirt, especially coupled with a faith NW nearby. Some Civ attributes just spice up things a bit like any civs that get bonuses in medieval era or sooner.

dragonxxx said:

The AI handles Zulu way better ...

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easily. On my one game, I was building space parts around turn 280, the Huns stole optics...optics...They just seem to keep themselves too small for too long for whatever reason and starve themselves out. Monty and Khan have this issue as well. They just sort of become the North Koreans in the game where they convince themselves that they are winning in some area, but they are just so lacking. I rarely see them above the bottom 3 and they are in practically every single game, I swear. It's almost as if I'm sending my scouts out just to look for them, because I know they are there.

otaman1 said:

Well, I played against Shaka on Prince and he destroyed my Naresuan elephants and razed Muang Saluang with only Impis. So yes, he's op.

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'Well, I lost to him, therefore he's OP"