Graphics

09/02/2013 Last update download link for my complete graphic patch

http://www.aeriesguard.com/forum/co...611688/file/Dune Wars graphic patch units.zip
and
http://www.aeriesguard.com/forum/co...24770/file/Dune Wars graphic patch leader.zip

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Hello, I want first congratulate for the best mod I ever play for civIV (best because it really work, even in my computer which crash for Rom or FFH, and because it have a pretty good ambiance). While I have firstly found weird the idea of use a civ engine to make a dune game, I admit it is one of the best dune game I ever seen. A great mod without the "too much" defect of many of them.

But I have two critiscim :
1- the first time I try the mod I can't really enter in because of all new things, as in comparison to civIV, but also with dune universe. For example, I have found very weird suspensors and hornets. Weird also the well while in the book it is just not possible to extract the water of the ground. Found weird the choam or the imperial use as religion, or the fact we have ordos, tleilax and Ix civ at same time (while ordos only the dune2 compound of tleilax and Ix to make the game no just an atreide/harkonnen duel). Weird the fact that fremen need suspensor to move their...
2- There is some poor graphics, in my tastes, for many units, especially mechanized ones. The contrast with cutes thopters, sandworms or fremen/corrino melee's is very huge.
"3"- not really a critiscim, but I feel sad the AI always be weak with civ with espionnage power. For exemple harkonnen always one of the weakest civ in my games, while I have found them very, very powerful. Bene gesserit have often the same problem. :'(

So, I want to help if I can to improve. For the first critiscim, I think there should be a more definite help in the pedia for the way of gaming each civ. There is very good help in general for tech and units, but it is hard for a new player to understand all and make is way trough developpement choice (for exemple : try to push at espionage and see only after your civ as very limited spys :/ ). Some clues for the best goal of each civ could be interesting, as also the thing the player should avoid (hope use the mahdi benefit for a corrino warmonger strategy xD I have did it !). It seem there is pedia missing for some promotions, those of spys in particular, this make very difficult for new player to know who spy can do what. And because the AI don't do the best with them, it is not really possible to know without a real play of all civ.

For graphism, I have began to improve them for me. Many with just textures adjustement, but also with model change for those I feel horrible. Is there anyone else work on this ? should I post in a specific topic ? (should say nothing, the fpk can't be change ? xD I have notice there is many old no more used stuff in it).

First I work on mech units (the "military" quad with a huge glass , thoses tanks, cannon or missile launcher with stranges and inefficient designs)
-I want also work one a new thopter, to give the current "falcon" to the UU hawk atreide it should be, and make a new one for the current falcon one, more similar in design to other strike thopters if it is possible.
-I want find new nice mesh for the awful suspensor destroyer
-I will work on hornet, to make more similar between them. currently it is to much a patchwork (and it is one of the thing that repel me at the begin, because I have always difficulties to place them in the dune universe. some weird mini plane transport by a floating carrier ? usefull to break city shield or bombardement normally done by thopter ? alway now I ask me if there is real need of theses, even if I understand the reasons why you make them)
-Try to make more civ's flavored unit, especially for them with uniform, like guardsmen.
-And finally, found better picture for leaders. The mix of high quality recent miniserie pict with low quality dune lynch's film hurt my eyes at each diplo action (and I dislike leto II as atreides leader. It is really weird to play a fremen game with paul and coexist with an atreide house rule by leto II. It is difficult for me to imagine leto more "atreides" than paul ?. Maybe dame jessica, or thuffir hawat be better. Alia is not so weird because she is of the same generation of all the others).

I can also help for french trad, but it is not very important, play in english is fine for me. I think all other french players do the same, so...

I always think also there can be more civ available, while there is already the absent from book ordos, and the ecaz I don't sure it is really a "house" in the franck herbert's product, we can add more fictional minor house to add more diversity to game. ok, it could be hard to imagine uniqueness of them, but why not (?)

ps : where I can found the empty yellow layout for make new unit button ?

because of all new things, as in comparison to civIV, but also with dune univers

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A lot of new things had to be added to make the game strategically and tactically interesting. If we limited ourself to canon lore, we would have basically nothing but melee infantry, because shields make everything else ineffective.

it is just not possible to extract the water of the ground.

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There are references to groundwater, I don't see a problem here. It would be very boring if all water came from windtraps.

Found weird the choam or the imperial use as religion

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We use the religion mechanic, but these are not strictly religions; the idea is that we are representing allegiance/philosophy/value choices. So CHOAM is about a belief that the Great Houses and CHOAM should have most of the power. Imperial is a belief that the Emperor should have most of the power. And so forth. Please read some of the many threads about religion in this forum to get an idea of what we had in mind.

See for example:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=349617
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=330907

There is some poor graphics, in my tastes, for many units, especially mechanized ones

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Art is hard and takes a long time to make, and many have been cribbed from the existing pool of Civ4 unit art. If you'd like to contribute some better art for these units, we'd welcome it.
Feel free to start a new thread if you have some content.

tleilax and Ix civ at same time

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The bene Tleilax and House Vernius are both in the prequels at the same time, and both are in the later Dune books at a later time. It doesn't seem unreasonable to include both. We need as many civs as possible - we already have fewer civs than almost any other mod - so we have to stretch to use some of the minor or non-canon factions.

Weird the fact that fremen need suspensor to move their

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This is largely for gameplay, but the rationalization is that guardsmen need heavy equipment that isn't easy to carry on a worm.

but I feel sad the AI always be weak with civ with espionnage power

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Yeah, it's unfortunate. Chris has some eventual plans for reworking the espionage AI, but I think he has been busy with other projects and RL.

I think there should be a more definite help in the pedia for the way of gaming each civ

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That sounds very interesting, if you'd like to write a strategy guide for each faction that could be included in the pedia.

I always think also there can be more civ available, while there is already the absent from book ordos, and the ecaz I don't sure it is really a "house" in the franck herbert's product, we can add more fictional minor house to add more diversity to game. ok, it could be hard to imagine uniqueness of them, but why not (?)

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Ecaz is canon but very little mentioned, Ordos is non-canon but has some developed lore. As for minor houses, we tried to avoid purely inventing new things that have no connection to the universe. [We've already done this with units, as you note.]
We've looked for alternatives, but the handful of other alternatives seem too similar to existing factions (Richese/Ix, Moritani/Harkonnen) or have literally no flavor at all.

There are references to groundwater, I don't see a problem here. It would be very boring if all water came from windtraps.

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It is in the began of dune, yueh talk with jessica an explain why the sky is so dark (to less water in the sky to absorb part of solar light) and why there can't be well (the sand fish isolate the water and the well become dry).

But all weird thing I have list is my first impression, I have no problem with the way all of this is use in the mod, on the contrary. I think you have really succes to make the spirit of dune.

But the lack of explanation on some choice you made is a brake for new player, especially if they well known dune. There is so many bad dune work made everywere, in other games or else, with thing don't work and don't feet dune lore... So the first time I have test the mod, I have be afraid it could but like that. I have persever, even with poor result, and finally discover the wealth and the quality of this work. It just lack little "strategy guide for the newbee". I have begun to write something for myself, I will post it in a topic for that

Art is hard and takes a long time to make, and many have been cribbed from the existing pool of Civ4 unit art. If you'd like to contribute some better art for these units, we'd welcome it.
Feel free to start a new thread if you have some content.

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I know, anyone has the same problem. I'm not able to make new mesh but I can modify mesh and textures with parts pick all around. For exemple, I have quickly made a new falcon thopter, mix with hawk and buzzard hulls and minor adjustements. In order to free the current falcon hull to give it for the UU atreide. This hull is the only which really feet a "race" thopter. So I have try to made a more heavy than the hawk, but ligter than the buzzar.

I have made quick change to made an idea for some graphic improvement I propose.

Tanks :
-a real quad, need some changes to have bigger wheel and turret to exaggerate his proportions
-the current roller with rocket I have take him for the rocket launcher, so I have pick a new roller with a gun turret (seem to be more logical in the quad to scorpion serie)
- light scorpion, based on a modified french WW2 light tank which look close to light tanks of dune2
- medium scorpion is a modern MBT choose to seem a smaller HV scorpion, with similar proportions
I have keep the current medium scorpion for an eventual sonic tank, his design without gun could be good for that


Sieges :
- rocket launcher replaced by the current roller
- assaut cannon replace by the mobile art. of civIV with adapted texture
- missile launcher as a modern french vehicule, with a design very close to the one chosen in dune2


Suspensors :
- replaced the gunship by the smac hoovertank. all other design jump a place to delete the horrible destroyer
I search a replacement for the transport, something could have a combat animation. I have try the current destroyer for that but it seem this mesh has problem with his lights definitions and be always to dark. Better in transport role than destroyer's, but always flavourless.


Of course all of these deserve better textures with nice desert camouflage, team colour, etc.

It's great that you're giving this a go. I'll let Deliverator make judgements on art, since that's really his department.

But a couple of thoughts:
I think some of the earth tank art for scorpions just looks too conventional. I really don't think we want anything that looks like it would obviously fit just fine on earth.

And I think the hovertank art just looks too different from the reset of the series to really fit.

I agree with Ahriman, especially with

Ahriman said:

And I think the hovertank art just looks too different from the reset of the series to really fit.

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and with

"It's great that you're giving this a go."

So you want a family style (do you really think there is one in the current quad to scorpion serie ?) but with also a kind of "sci-fi" inspirated design.

I recognize a challenge

I will explain my point of view, you could more understand what I will try to do and decide if it feet with your goal or not.

For me, there is no sci-fi design. Physics rules don't changes, and if future things are made to have a similar use than our current, then, it should be have similar design except if the universe is ruled by different laws (magic...). But there is definitly some things we could found nicer even if they aren't be realistic : bigger gun, bigger track or wheel, and in general all sort of exaggeration (maybe the fact units are small is a reason). But exaggeration of realistic thing make better results than absurds ones. The hv scorpion is the exact reflect of these : it has all things of a realist tank, but double gun because it fun (useless but who care ?), double track for same reason. The result is nice. Same idea for the quad of dune 2 : gigantic wheel, big turret. It is the exageration of a ww2 britain vehicule. The dune2 proportion make him unsuable, but it has a far better look.
On the contrary, the current quad isn't nice because it hasn't good exageration of fun things (turret, gun, wheels) and besides it has absurds elements like huge glass, poorly armor shape, too low fram for all terrain use. The trike also respect the good design rule and it is enought nice to make people forgot "little things" : the first wheel hind the vision of the cockpit, and the gun is so big there isn't place in the hull to carry bullets (but who care ? ). If you direct the light on good thing, absurdity is hide. If you don't, she jump at you an you see only that.

So this is the reason why, for thing could be done in our real world, I start with a real vehicle, and mod him to make more "fun". For the others, like thopter or suspensor, then all doors are open, but the rule of make exageration of what we (with our own cultural perception) think it is the spirit of a powerfull military engine. The original designer of thopters as follow the rule with plenty guns and big reactors.
But if it don't it could make a design incomprehensible, and this can't really be found beautifull (except it is an artwork).

Then, because the dunemod have made a choice to use some tanks, and for a role that is exactly the same than contemporary's, it will be hard to make something nice but not look like a tank. In general the way to avoid this is to make battlerobot, or walking tanks, but there is also someones for ixian ^^"

For the hoovertank it is just an idea, but based on the fact there ins't always family style between vehicle with a so different scale than a small gunship to an a heavy cruiser or carrier. (and I'm not fan of SMAC design in general, but the hoovertank is nice)

However, my tests to improve the quad show me there is too many problems with only a post-meshing work. I need more powerfull tools and direct mesh edition to make something I could found acceptable. So, I will take time.

I couldn't disagree more about the destroyers, I've always found they looked large, imposing, and well... generally, badass. Very suitable for a late game powerful unit.

In fact I think all of the 'vehicle' type units are very well done as they stand. The only thing that really pops into my mind as placeholder that could be improved is the Imperial levies (replacing lasgun troopers), while fremen ground units could stand to have their own ground troops that look more fremen, but both of those would need new artwork created.

I have made some modifications, with the purpose of improve guardsmen : make more differences between house's and give a better family style.

For make a better use of the team color, I have first make somes changes at this.
1- Fremen become orange, color which feet better with desert's color clothes and a desert camo style
2- Corrino become yellow, to have the gold-dark color of the imperial army available (and new banner with the gold lion on black)
3- Harkonnen become blue, has their banner should be a blue chimera (and new banner)
4- Bene Gesserit become red, to avoid a too close color with tleilax if I give them the previous purple of corrino (and new banner with the BG on red)
5- and just a new banner for atreides, to have their green and black color

With this, I have made 4 or 5 versions of each guardsmen to make different family :
- a regular style (atreides and BG)
- a grey style (corrino and ecaz)
- a desert mercenary style (ordos and Ix)
- a camo style (fremen and tleilax)
- and a dark style (harkonnen)
I have tried to choose the style for the house in function of their background. The camo style of the fremen are slightly different than the tleilax one. Fremen infantery and master guardsmen have crys knives and headscarf. Each style use team color but not always in the same place, to preserve the spirit of the uniform (for exemple, regular and grey style wear very visible teamcolor, while the camo or harkonnen style are more discreet). The style of Ix and ordos tried to make the impression their soldiers are not really an army but can come from various mercenaries origins.
I haven't modify Moongose troopers and place them in screenshot only to have the complete family. Rocket trooper have just gain teamcoloured epaulette, missile troopers have 4 styles, and moongose rest as they are because they are already as much catch-all.

Atreides


Corrino


Fremen


Harkonnen


Ordos


Bene Gesserit


Because of the previous commentary on this topic I assume you don't like the changes of the banners but for me it is a prerequisite to make coherence between teamcolor, banner color and soldiers style. (And I don't see any reason to prefer the choices of westwood games than a more canon lore's one, except for the ordos).
In the beginning I have choice the regular style for atreides and ecaz, and let BG with the grey, as corrino. But the teamcolor of atreides and ecaz are so close then I have prefered invert BG and ecaz.

If theses don't feet to you, maybe I can make just a alternate graphic pack (when I will finish the more difficult work on mechanics units)

I think the idea of faction specific graphics is cool, but I don't understand the rationale behind your color changes. Could you please explain this?
Imperial purple is a very old (Roman) tradition, and red is associated with aggression and works well for Harkonnen, and doesn't feel right for Bene Gesserit.

I have said my reasons :

For make a better use of the team color, I have first make somes changes at this.
1- Fremen become orange, color which feet better with desert's color clothes and a desert camo style
2- Corrino become yellow, to have the gold-dark color of the imperial army available (and new banner with the gold lion on black)
3- Harkonnen become blue, has their banner should be a blue chimera (and new banner)
4- Bene Gesserit become red, to avoid a too close color with tleilax if I give them the previous purple of corrino (and new banner with the BG on red)

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The blue of the fremen definitly don't go with furtive style unit if I use teamcolour. Royal blue spot on their clothes seem weird and ugly.

For corrino, the book design of the imperial uniform army is grey and gold. For same reason than fremen, it seem weird to have grey-yellow and purple on the sames uniform. Is it not beautiful, not as a grey-black-yellow theme. The purple is also very close to the Btlx color so I don't be very sad to remove it.

And for the red. I don't associate red with agression, but with noblity (maybe for americans the red is always the color of communism, and so, it is necessarily the "bad" one ? and the blue the color of virgin mary so, necessarily good ? however we have red and blue in our two nation flags). And if the faction color should link with their purpose, why only harkonnen have the agression color while many faction could be as even agressive ? I have never been shock to have harkonnen in blue and atreides in red in the first dune game, and not more to have the opposite in the westwood serie. Duke Leto ins't nickname "the red duke" ? The idea of my harkonnen color choice is to make them more an army of shadow, which prefer strike the night, in your bottom, by treachery, in the opposite of an fair battle. In my mind the blue fit more with shadows, and the red as no special reason to be link with them. While I have made a blue banner for them, it seem logical to give them a blue color.

So for summarize, I have not special reason to not choose theses colors, and I found them nicer than the previous. It is not more "rationale" than that.

What is your source for the imperial army being gold dark? Do you have a quotation?

And for the red. I don't associate red with agression, but with noblity

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In the English-speaking world at least (and note, I'm from New Zealand, not the USA, where I live), red is associated with passion, anger, blood, violence, rage, hostility. Blue is associated with the sea, the sky, ice, water, and is generally dispassionate.
Neither are particularly associated with nobility, or with Mary.

why only harkonnen have the agression color while many faction could be as even agressive

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Harkonnen are the one faction we know that was willing to plan and execute a massive unprovoked assault. Yes, the Baron is much more about intrigue than brute force - but Rabban is certainly brute force, and is the most aggressive AI we have in the game.

Duke Leto ins't nickname "the red duke" ?

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I don't remember that from anywhere. [Not saying it is wrong, my memory is terrible on these kinds of details, but do you have a source?]

In any case, I'll continue to leave any graphics judgements up to Deliverator, I have no strong preferences.

I for myself am completely satisfied with the existing colors. They also fit to:
- the novels
- the westwood games (which form a solid experience for many gamers)
- ???

The red duke (I don't know if it is exactly the name in the english version but I don't see why should be not) is in the dune appendix, in the almanach where there is some informations about characters. I think it is maybe the main reason for the red color choice for the atreides in the dune cryo game.
The color of the imperial uniform can be found in the end of the novel, when shaddam come to arrakis. It is mention somewhere shaddam wear not a ceremonial clothe but a simple grey sardaukar uniform with little corrino gold lion. But I will not search for you the exact quote. I remember this, it is enought for me. In the lasts novels, BG has copied the old sardaukars style and ranks for their own army.
I could also argue about the color of the spice. There is no information about that in the dune original novel except the sandspice is darker, but in the god-emperor of dune, it is said the spice is blue. But the canon-lore argument can't stand because there is many contradictions in all the novels about many subjects and I think actually anyone really care, the autor the first.

For the association of color with something, for me it is just off-board, because these kind of thing are totally subjective. I'm not made my choices thinking of that (or I should change the ordos color : clear green is more for ecologist or at least someone who care about nature). It is more a question of taste and while I have made the blue banner of harkonnen, it is weird and not very beautiful to let them in red. If you prefer the red and a aries for harko because it is the westwood choice, ok, it's a good argument. But you will have trouble to quote where they could have find this in the novels
Personnaly, I don't take westwood games has a reference because they have nearly nothing to do with the lore. Goods games, nice to make a wink, but no more.

But I already said you will not like

The modifications I have made to units can work with the current color. It is just little less beautiful, especially for fremen.

I have mod bladesmen, with materials of unshielded shield and kindjal fighters. I found shame there is just a texture change between two bladesmen, with a simple ninja-skin, while there is good uniform after but invisible under the shield. So I have make bladesman like a unshield fighter, and hardened bladesman like a unshield kindjal fighter. I will probably add the case sword later to make a greater difference between them and guardsmen.

I agree, that red color should be better for Harkonnen. But other factions, especially corino, are simply amazing! I want in next version of the mod.

You probably don't have, but I surely will make a downloadable graphic patch when I consider I have finish. I now work on new meshs for suspensors and hornets.

And If everyone think harko must be red I could also make a special red-harko version even if I really think in the lore harkonnen are not warmongers but merchants without conscience. Spoiled kings of petroleum. They surely can't beat the atreide army without the combinaison of : treachery + a massive disguised sardaukar help. And why the emperor has helped harkonnen to destroy atreides house ? because he was afraid of their military power (and landsraad influence). He prefer have harko in front of him, because he know they aren't as dangerous. QED.

If you want quote, all of this is write in the begin of the third book of dune, when the baron talk with thuffir just after the fail of murder attempt of the baron by feyd-rautha. I have also found the description of sardaukar uniform, it is not far after. In french, it is write "Sa silhouette maigre (the emperor), élancée, était élégamment prise dans l'uniforme gris des Sardaukars, soutaché d'or et d'argent." Just before, it is write the room is decorated with the bloody and teared banners won in battles. So for me, the only really "brute force" house in dune is corrino.

I have test a other way to keep the harkonnen in red : corrino still become yellow and fremen orange, but ecaz take the royal blue and BG the purple. With this the color of ecaz and atreides are enought different to give them the same regular style, and BG can regain the previous grey's one. Color of BG and BTX are close, but not their uniform styles so there can't be mix-up.

I have modify the kwisatz to make a more dune lore design character, with the head of the burseg, and in the uniform style of BG. And also add visibility for the sword of the bladesmen.

Wow! It's great...
I'm really satisfied with this. I'm curious to your next work.

I'd be OK with this I think. I particularly like the change to the bladesman/hardened bladesman, but differentiating the ground units in general is a good direction to go in.

Working on strike effect, I notice the lasgun soldier haven't strike animation (the file isn't present in the directorie : forgot ?). So I have give to him the current lasgun trooper animation and sound, and modify the lasgun trooper to give him : slightly more heavy gun, more powerfull sound (the one of suspensors) and a longer laser beam. I found the result really nice, and it give a better differentiation between these two units.

The screenshot don't really show all, but is better than nothing