The Touhou Mod Development Thread

The Parsee civ was a joke, really -- there's no reason she'd be a leader of anything.

Byakuren and Miko are obvious leaders. My problem with them is they just aren't funny and don't have any of the character attributes I used for Cirno, Okuu, Eirin or Yuuka to make their dialogue memorable.

Huitzil37 said:

The Parsee civ was a joke, really

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Ouch, poor ParuParu.


What about an Eiki Shiki Civ? There was a good idea for that one thrown out earlier, and she's one of the few final bosses besides Miko and Byakuren not represented by a Civ yet. And her uniques wouldn't be too hard to come up with, I'd imagine--a Shinigami UU is an obvious choice.

Eiki could have a Komachi hero unit that can teleport (airdrop) really long distances and is very powerful, but also doesn't work for a few turns after an action other than to move small amounts normally. Probably wouldn't be balanced, but it'd be interesting depending on how it's executed. (A promotion for her or shinigamis in general to get bonus damage on low health enemies would be cool.)

UA could be a bonus to combat based on the warmongering aggressiveness of her foe, and perhaps even give a penalty if attacking someone less aggressive? As a leader, I don't see her civ being aggressive in combat, she'd go for the cultural or diplomatic win, only fighting when attacked. (Once again I'd say she's a good candidate for being a no settlers civ, but that's just my taste.)

And maybe have the ability to build a slightly better courthouse in any city? She's a judge after all.

As I recall, one of the UA ideas we tossed around in the past was that Shiki would get bonuses for denouncing people. Convictor Yamaxanadu!

I suppose you could call the civilization "The Ministry of Right and Wrong"? Or perhaps Xanadu, given her title. And, I know it's a bit of a boring UA, but they're one of the few factions where it's really sensible for them to get money when an enemy dies. It's also a bit aggressive for Eiki's personality. Maybe as an add-on in addition to whatever else she gets, a small bonus whenever an enemy dies?

There are other possible Unique Units besides shinigami, I think, given the Ministry's association of hell. Oni are supposed to work for her, for instance, along with the two legendary keepers of hell, Ox-head and Horse-face. If you do go with shinigami, I think a cool feature would be the ability to defend themselves better when embarked, as well as the amphibious trait, to represent the fact that they're ferrymen as well as reapers. There's also the possibility of an entirely alternate naval form, like in JFD's Carthage mod, where the unique Great General turns into a Great Admiral when it embarks, and back into a Great General when it disembarks. Something to think about.

As for possible UBs, something to do with the Courthouse? Maybe make it buildable in all cities, regardless of whether or not it's been conquered, and provide additional bonuses. Faith, perhaps? Or just an additional reduction of unhappiness/unrest/whatever. I'm not really sure. Anyway, it's fun thinking about.

The reason I suggested the bonus versus more aggressive foes is that it ties in with the lore of her most well known possession, the Rod of Remorse, which weighs more based on the sins of those being judged. I figure warmongering is a pretty good way to measure that in civ. Denouncing bonuses would also be good, but she herself shouldn't be aggressive nor encouraged to be. Bonuses against warmongers also would make her harder for traditional conquerors like Genghis or Attila (or Utsuho) to fight, as befits a civ representing the afterlife.

It's actually quite rare (in my experience) to see a civ totally eliminated by another AI on lower difficulties unless they didn't expand at all and Eiki shouldn't be encouraged to nor rewarded for starting aggressive wars in order to kill her foes for money. Units dying providing money on the other hand seems perfectly acceptable.

A courthouse buildable in any city that provides faith actually would make sense as well, since the afterlife system she represents is based on the buddhist's reincarnation system. (Perhaps if she's a no settler civ as I suggested previously, they could function like the Rathaus in JFD's HRE civ, where they give you control of puppets?)

I suggested the gold bonus for defeated foes because, in order to cross the Sanzu/Styx/Whatever, souls need to pay a fee to the ferryman, which the Ministry of Right and Wrong uses as funding. I do agree that it encourages the wrong sort of gameplay, though, which is also why I suggested it be as an additional bonus, or perhaps a decision that can be made via the Events and Decisions mod.

ok so i just played a great game of genocide, and nearly lost to Mima on Immortal, with all current touhou civs. i got to thinking of how much i would love to see Seija. the idea come to me, but im not to good at the whole modding thing.


Seija Kijin - The Weak

Oh Seija Kijin. oh rebelous amanojaku you who difies paradims, who turnd socity on in head.

long have you been scored and long have you enjoyed it.

will you raise to the occasion and stand for the weak once more,
crush the strong under your foot and build a weak nation that will stand the test of time.


dialogue

Denouncing: Oh i so love you right know, im going to tell every one about you.
Friend, what are you doing here don't you have better things to do then annoy me.
deceleration of friendship. I'm going to keep an eye on you.
at War: you hungry? come on in!
declare war: gee.. just come over and take the place.

basically shes contradictory




Unique Ability: Morality Flip.
can capture buildings at half their Life, with no resistance. city stats degrade at half their normal rate, cannot build settlers


Unique Building: Shining Needle Castle,
replaces Palace adds +25 to defense and + 2 to gold, production, food, faith and culture in city


Unique Unit: Rebel,
bought with faith equal of that of the great prophet, friendly units in range heal by 10 pnt a turn, enemy in range take 10 of damage.
can be used once to annex a city at full health




Ideas for other charactors
Reimu Hakurei



Reimu is a half mercantile and half faith based society, another words she's to lazy to work for it and rather sit around collecting gold.
may require an overhaul to beliefs to ad more gold based practices



Unique Ability: osaisen
gain +1 gold from shrine, and temples, +2 Religious buildings. gain +2 faith from markets, banks and stock exchange,
all gold acquisition doubled after learning theology. -25% production


Unique Building: osaisen box,
gain gold equal to the population of the city, gained after taking a pantheon



Unique Unit: Shrine Madain
replaces missionaries, 3 uses, at 1000 power gains +1 gold for ever person converted



Tenshi Hinanawi

total warmonger-er

Unique Ability: boredom : cannot initiate a pace treaty. city sight's are increase by 3 space


Unique Building: living rock wall, city heal twice as fast replaces wall


Unique Unit: Iku's lighting tower. replaces stealth bomber +50 to units radiates two spaces out at sea or lake, cannot move between cities.

-just some thoughts

Alright, there are a lot of ideas in that post, but there's one thing I think I need to get out of the way first.

NaughtyTanuki said:

Unique Building: Shining Needle Castle,
replaces Palace adds +25 to defense and + 2 to gold, production, food, faith and culture in city

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Link to video.

Those bonuses would ensure an early-game advantage (unless she gets a terrible starting location), and not to mention that the faith bonus would allow her to almost always get a pantheon even faster than Kanako, unless someone else is lucky enough to get some faith from ancient ruins immediately. And with early-game advantages comes the distinct possibility of unstoppable snowballing, especially since that production and food would allow her to snag a bunch of early wonders with more ease than her contemporaries.

It doesn't represent her character very well, either--while the other suggestions for her are unique and different enough in a Seija sort of way, this just sort of feels thrown in solely for the fact that she used the castle as her HQ during the incident.

Although, some other ideas for Seija...hm. This would be complicated, but perhaps some sort of mid-game building that can flip between two different types of yields on command, or every other x amount of turns automatically? I dunno, an automatic one would probably be frustrating if you're trying to rush a wonder and suddenly a chunk of your production disappears...something similar might be nice, though.


The Rebel...ehh. Just up and taking a city for free seems OP, even though it's expensive faith-wise. Maybe give it an ability to put an enemy city into Resistance for a set amount of turns? It would certainly fit the unit name.

The ability I don't have as much of a problem with as long as the other two uniques are toned down. After all, she needs something to help her acquire more cities


Pretty sure we already have a Reimu civ in production, so not going to comment on the ideas present here, except to ask about that donation box. Is that...is that one gold per population PER TURN? Oh...oh my.


I don't really know how to feel about Tenshi's uniques, except that maybe we should save Iku's uniques for Iku, eh

Not being able to initiate a peace treaty is intriguing. With Touhou civs, we really need to be as creative as we can get to accurately represent their character (or our interpretation of said character), and I don't quite think I've ever heard that idea thrown around before. It does fit the character (though personally, I would imagine something more "piss off the enemy into declaring war" rather than "keep a war going", but I can't think of any ability off the top of my head that would fit such a description), but I can't imagine that it wouldn't be annoying for the player. Don't pick her if you don't want to deal with it, I suppose, but I imagine the player would get quite bored of some wars they just want to end already, where both sides are in a stalemate with a billion cities behind the front lines. As for the AI, the ability could easily be represented by a few high or low personality stats in certain areas. Still, it is again a unique idea, something that should definitely be looked into in my opinion.

i can see removing the culture and faith from shinning needle, or/and even reducing it to +1, after all that plus "God King" is unfair.

i still think the rebels ability need to be kept, it fits her habits for acquiring thing that aren't hers,


although it should entirely destroy any diplomacy, and not work on capitals. flipping the "ownership" of city "upside down."

Plus; she need something that will really make you hate her, and just walking up and taking your stuff will do just that.


it no more overpowered then say fighting 40 units of undead, (the secret is naval superiority)

on Reimu, yes if it has 3 population, 3 gold. if 24, 24 gold.


any ways it's just ideas I'm sure it Reimu is already in the works. had to get them out is all.



ps.
if its not Overpowered its not Touhou

The Seija you're suggesting is just an OP venice. Would be boring to play as and infuriating to play against which is not good game design.

She should 100% be based more on happiness and rebellion mechanics.

In fact, very little of your ideas seem balanced or thought out beyond "This vaguely fits this character", with no thought to actual lore or even game design basics. I'm sorry if this sounds rude, but if I saw someone post a mod with these ideas implemented I'd avoid it like the plague.

I'm all about abusing uniques, as the GTI abuse I did with Eirin illustrates, but that's not near-infinite gold or free conquering at whim, or no ability to peace out ever. Very little of that has creative applications, it's the same sort of issue as playing a game like EU4 and only playing established powers.

There's not really any interesting gameplay being encouraged here, just OP powers to faceroll AI with, that the second you have to fight it yourself it's a massive nightmare.

Again, I don't mean this as an attack on anything beyond how awful these uniques feel as gameplay concepts.

that what i want overpowered, i thought of the ideas. thinking how great it would be to take on. going against a clearly superior opponent is what i want. just Mima alone is not enough; doom be to all that share a continent with her.

these are just ideas nothing in stone consider it my contribution to the brain storm
I'm open to suggestions, i won't be doing any of the modding after all. I still think The Weak would be a great addition to the mods, provided it is a great challenge I'm happy. your capital has been taken by the Weak, just sound awesome. so far Yuuka, Cirno, and Suika have been to easy even on Immortal. i will be playing a Deity game with them next time, will see if there not history at the renaissance again.

how about happiness from people who have denounced her.

NaughtyTanuki said:

so far Yuuka, Cirno, and Suika have been to easy even on Immortal.

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I think you'll find Alice, Nitori, Moriya and Eirin far more difficult to play high difficulty against than the civs who really need a let's say.. human touch to be played well.

NaughtyTanuki said:

that what i want overpowered, i thought of the ideas. thinking how great it would be to take on. going against a clearly superior opponent is what i want. just Mima alone is not enough; doom be to all that share a continent with her.

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Well, personally I would prefer to make strong, but not necessarily overpowered civs. Admittedly, there are flaws in the Civ 5 AI that can make them poor opponents for skilled players. For me, I am challenged enough playing at King, so I can't particularly say how my civs play at higher levels of difficulty.

Is Mima that terrifying? I haven't actually played much against her as that AI, although I know I need to go through and make some adjustments to the Spectres. If she's actually a frightening opponent that's amusing. XD

EDIT: Judging from your comment about waves of undead, I'm guessing she is. Good to know the Sorceresses are summoning Skeletons properly!

NaughtyTanuki said:

so far Yuuka, Cirno, and Suika have been to easy even on Immortal. i will be playing a Deity game with them next time, will see if there not history at the renaissance again.

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Well, Yuuka has definite flaws when played by the AI, because the AI can't use her sunflower fields properly. I'm working on revisions to Suika -- when I originally created her, I used the Mongols as a basis... but then BNW came out with the Zulus, who set a new standard for warmongering, so I'm trying to bring Suika up to Shaka levels, which may make her a more effective threat. At least in my last game she was able to actually take cities from the other AI players, so hopefully she's getting there.

I think that Seija would make for a very interesting leader, but it'd take quite a bit of thought to figure out how to implement her unique traits in a playable form...

EDIT: Idly wondering if something like the Mongols in the G&K scenario might be a good starting point. Also considering if having her interact with city-state might be a good way for her to expand her empire, as CS's could be considered the "weaker" civs, and getting them on your side could be the way to build up Seija into a powerhouse. Might be a decent starting point for speculation...

It's also amusing to consider Seija aiming to win through a diplomatic victory!

I'm almost thinking that your issue is the one I've vaguely heard about, that the AI is apparently not aggressive or creative enough even on the top difficulties. And if that's the actual issue here then there's not much you can do. Adding OP Civs that a couple people who play deity enjoy for the challenge of the AI literally cheating forever isn't exactly something everyone would want. (By the way, there are some super OP mods on the workshop already that were made with the intent of being OP either as a challenge for skilled players or as ways to faceroll AI for the less skilled, if that's all you want.)

Also, Eirin, Nitori and Utsuho have proven themselves to be at least capable of being powerful on lower difficulties, and would probably be more interesting than Cirno as an opponent, who managed to spiral her UA penalty/bonus so far out of control that her position was impossible to recover from in one of my games.


In case Huitzil is interested in what happened to Cirno:

She hadn't gotten to the point that she could build an ongoing focus (gold/science) in terms of tech, and ran out of things to build. Since units build twice as quick for her, she made units. The doubled maintenance drained her money, and started eating into her science. This made her incapable of advancing in tech, meaning she had nothing to build but more units.

I'll toss in my vote against an OP Civ as well. They can be powerful, sure, but I find games to be way too boring if your Civ has basically every advantage.

On the other hand, those you mentioned were powerful on lower difficulties certainly feels like they are right on the border of OP to me, which would explain it. Utsuho's +2 Science from each mine sounds crazy, and the last time I played Eirin was before her nerf, so maybe she's less crazy now with her GP generation. Still, essentially "free" specialists are quite nuts.

Regarding Cirno, I have a hunch that she could be fixed with some AI tweaks; Her Flavor settings for Gold and Science are comparatively low compared to her flavors for offense and such, which may explain her affinity toward building more units instead of earlier Gold/Science buildings.

Also, nvdr2 -- You know you can merge your account with your original one, right?

Is Mima that terrifying? I haven't actually played much against her as that AI, although I know I need to go through and make some adjustments to the Spectres.

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no the Specturs were the best part, it made attacking her nearly imposable by land. it forced my hand to fight her using diplomacy. embargo, banning her luxuries creating a coalition, and attacking by sea. i never had to abuse the AI poor naval intelligence so much, before fighting her .

...but then BNW came out with the Zulus, who set a new standard for warmongering, so I'm trying to bring Suika up to Shaka levels,...

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i would be worried about his tendency to only having one city, but shaka is a good fight unlike suika.

...Also considering if having her interact with city-state...

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that's why i consider less degrade, regardless of her personality she does care about the weak.

Regarding Cirno, I have a hunch that she could be fixed with some AI tweaks; Her Flavor settings for Gold and Science are comparatively low compared to her flavors for offense and such, which may explain her affinity toward building more units instead of earlier Gold/Science buildings.

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it does fit her personality, but its a vary large weakness. once you get past the bum rush she becomes more of an annoyance. that's a fairy for you what are you going to do; throw some ofuda and keep going forward.

Honestly I think Seija cares less about the weak and more about reversing social norms. If she had succeeded in inverting the strong and the weak somehow, she very likely wouldn't have been pleased about it for long before she attempted a reversal. (That said, based on her basic danmaku and reliance on stolen magic, she likely isn't strong herself as well.)

Really, I think a civ based more on reversals of the standard gameplay could be interesting, but hard to code and balance.

that's just it once the weak become strong, she will care about the weak and help them overthrow the strong. they flip not her. weak become strong ---- strong become weak, Seija flips it again.

i hate her so much♥


(edit)
on the Yuuka issue of the AI not working with her flower fields.
it seems to me that the pc cant figure out how to farm culture.
how about a simply replace to farms? keep the food an production and just add culture, without the whole +1 for adjacent.

Seija would probably take a fair bit of brainstorming to figure out a way she might work as a civ -- while there are plenty of interesting themes one could use with her, making them work mechanically will be tricky.

Given that, in Double Dealing Character she allied with a bunch of weak youkai to help them overthrow the existing order, it could be an interesting basis for a diplomatic civ. Alliances with city-states could make both Seija and them stronger, and you could potentially use them against your enemies, and ultimately try to win diplomatically, a triumph for the physically weak over the strong.

Happiness/Unhappiness seem like another area one could play with Seija's reversals. She could potentially get stronger while unhappy, in contrast to normal civ play. Or perhaps just stir up unhappiness in her rivals. Denouncements are another area one could play with.

I suppose for me, I'd tentatively consider something as follows: She gets bonuses from every allied city state, and allied city states get bonuses from her. (Increased production, gold, food, and the like.) Causes unhappiness in civs that don't have a DoF with her depending on how many city states she has allied. Gains influence/production/gold from being denounced?

Something like that... could tie a lot into influence and allies...