Babylonian UB and the Greek UB...

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Sep 2, 2006
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This may seem like a strange thread to some of you here, but I'm already thinking of modding ideas for BtS once I get a copy. Sure, I'll play a few "out-of-the-box" games to get a feel for the new material, but looking through (and dare I say, studying) the prerelease info has left me with a realization that I would like to share.

The Babylonian UB, if I understand it correctly, is a Colosseum replacement that provides +1 health. This struck me as a little weak (because buildings like the Apothecary get +2 health, and the Ottoman aqueducts are +2 happiness), but I figured that colosseums are less expensive since a patch from Firaxis. But then I started looking at other colosseum replacement UBs. The Mayan Ball Court doesn't seem too much stronger, although it is +2 happiness, not a +1.

And then I saw the Greek UB. Perhaps I just never really paid enough attention to the Greeks--I played as them once, but never really looked too much at the UB. I concede that I may have ignored one of the greatest "additional benefits" that a UB can provide in the game. It's a colosseum with +3 culture, +1 happiness, +1 happiness from Hit Singles, and allows two artists specialists. Holy $^%&! And Babylon only gets +1 health?

I decided that I would mod the Babylonian UB when I got the game, and I couldn't decide on a bonus, since allowing artist specialists and extra culture are both already part of the Greek UB additional benefits. I wanted something truly unique. And, then, it hit me: why not give the Babylonian UB the benefit of a mini-Sistine, giving +2 culture to all specialists in this city? It's a boost that gives the Babylonians a culture boost, something that just seems appropriate to me, and it is completely unique from the Greek UB. It gives a player shooting for a culture victory a unique alternative to the typical selection of China (for the Pavilion culture boost) or another Industrious or Philosophical leader; a specialist economy gets unique synergy with it. However, I don't think the game coding has the ability to give limited specialist boosts: there is a SpecialistExtraCommerce tag, but I believe that affects your entire civilization.

So, I suppose my somewhat rambling post has two questions: what do all of you think of that bonus, and is there anyone here skilled enough with Python to mod this benefit in? I'm limited to XML modding capacity, myself, and I have never succeeded in adding stuff to the schema, just modifying it.

P. S.: I know this may seem more appropriate for the Creation and Customization forum, but since it's about the expansion pack before its release, I figured this would be the best venue for discussion. :)
 
That's a really, really good idea that I may have to borrow :p Of course, I'm XML illiterate and would have to bug you with PM's to get your secrets :)


Babs do get ripped off in the UB department, for sure. I do usually need all the +health I can get, since I love to industrialize my cities as much as possible, but it doesn't seem like enough to me.
 
Well, I don't have much to add about customization because I like to play the "official" game usually, but I have to admit that the +1 health seems ridiculously weak.
 
I think Python is needed for this one--there is a tag for it, but its the same tag the wonders use. I'm pretty sure that affects your entire civilization, not just one city.

@bonafide11 and others like us: I'm the same way you are--I like the base game. However, some small things aggravate me, so I'm making a tiny mod to change them. Not too much, just adding in the Warlords resources (cotton, olives, tea) from the scenarios to the main game, changing some names (Praetorian -> Legion), and thinking of ideas like this. I will highly recommend my MinimalMod whenever I can finish it (a few weeks after BtS release)--it's the mod you already know how to play!
 
That does sound like a good improvement (I'm hoping there is a better effect than +1 Health that they are just hiding... + 1 more Health and + 1 Happiness with Fresh Water is my personal favorite idea) However the +2 Culture/Specialist sounds good

Note: the Sumerian one also seems rather underpowered, unless it gets some Espionage Bonus.

THe Khmer seems mildly underpowered (I'm hoping for an additional +1 Food with Fresh Water)
 
You could do this change in python, but it would be messy and a hack and the AI wouldn't understand it and the tooltips wouldn't show what it gave.

I think that +2 culture per specialist is just too powerfull. Run mercantalism and you've got a free trait (creative). I guess you could always give it a simple +25% culture as well but thats a little dull. Or how about 1 free specialist in that city? I think that would be very powerful but not overpowered.
 
Awesome idea :D I really love the minimal mods created in order to take away the little imperfections of civ. I used to do the same with Civ 3, now I don't know how to mod civ 4 properly:-/
And you proposed a very elegant, original solution to the Babilonian UB (not to mention that it would be quite fitting for such a civ), kudos!

And if you need more ideas of minor things to rebalance, here there are some ones:

- The unnerfing of the imperialistic and expansive traits.
- The Spanish & Egyptian UB.

See ya!
 
The UBs don't need to be balanced. It's the UU+UB+starting techs+leader traits that should be balanced. Babylon doesn't look particularly strong, but I don't think it looks too weak either. Why not play it awhile before trying to 'fix' it?
 
Gardens seem really weak, but Hammurabi is almost immune to an axeman rush and the Bowman will be very strong against Swordsmen too, and Agg/Org was one of my favourite combos in vanilla, so I think a weak UB is OK.
A free Sistine Chapel looks too strong for a building that comes uisually before the SC . If I would mod the Gardens I'd give it +1 :culture: per specialist and +1 :) per 10% culture spending instead of +1 :) per 20%.
 
How about a percentage reduction in unhealthiness from population? And maybe +1 Culture for kicks.

EDIT: It is after all a Garden... that should give health benefits if anything and not a cultural boost.

Better to go with the +1 culture from specialist for the Ziggurat. I mean, honestly, a Courthouse can be rather modest.. a Ziggurat sort of forces you to build big, so how on earth could it cost less?! Keep the 4 to build Forbidden Palace but give them +1 culture from specialist and increase their cost by 25% or so.

Also, Antilogic, the CCCP already has the <LocalSpecialistCommerce> tag which does exactly what you're asking for, so there's no need to do anything with python or even do your own SDK modding.
 
THe Khmer seems mildly underpowered (I'm hoping for an additional +1 Food with Fresh Water)

I don't understand this. A settled GM is considered very valuable just because of the +1 food it gives. The Baray is a relatively cheap building that gives you that. Giving it +1 more food with anything is potentially overpowered.
 
The UBs don't need to be balanced. It's the UU+UB+starting techs+leader traits that should be balanced. Babylon doesn't look particularly strong, but I don't think it looks too weak either. Why not play it awhile before trying to 'fix' it?

I plan to (I said in the OP that I plan to play a few games first, didn't I?). I also agree that everything needs to be considered in terms of balance...I'm just looking at a UB with a very small benefit. If anything, I'm just in the thinking stage, throwing out ideas and letting a little discussion take place. Then, about a month after BtS is released, I'll post my little mod and see how everybody likes the finished product.

@Dom Pedro II: CCCP? Is that a mod on these forums?

The reason why I'm suggesting the culture per specialist is because I really wanted a unique ability. The Greek UB already grants extra culture, allows artist specialists, and other UBs grant +25&#37; culture or improve the happiness per culture slider rate. Besides, this ability gives a clear benefit to somebody going for a culture victory and a specialist economy. It could be toned down to +1 culture per specialist if that's too strong.

Also, I'm going with the culture idea because it just seems appropriate that Babylon has some kind of "culture" benefit. Perhaps that is my ignorance of specifics on ancient Middle Eastern civilizations, but it just seems right, especially since Hammurabi's traits seem more appropriate as a warmonger. I know it's a garden, and the health bonus seems appropriate, but having fabulous greenspace and open plazas definitely contributes to a real city's culture, doesn't it? I'd think so.

On the Ziggurat...I was throwing some ideas around in my head, but nothing extremely good yet. If we just assign this benefit to the Ziggurat and improve the happiness-culture slider exchange rate for the Gardens, that might be fine. But I was also considering adding a happiness-culture slider benefit to the Ziggurat, allowing priest specialists (they served a religious function, if memory serves), or something else...maybe granting a free priest. I've also considered the builds 50% faster with stone a la Assembly Plant bonus. Or the Roman style +25% great person points. Whatever (that'll be for a later thread :)).

@GoodSarmatian: You are right that Babylon has immunity to the axe rush. I, however, rarely use that tactic (probably why I'm still a Prince/Monarch player). Babylon's UU seems to indicate another early-defensive civilization like the Mali, but with warmonger traits. I don't quite know how that will play out.

Also, as part of the effort for my minimal mod, I'm trying to leave the initial bonuses granted intact, and just adding small things. That's why I have the +1 health and the +culture per specialist; or for the Ziggurat, I'll leave the cheaper construction.

@Krikkitone: Yes, but how many settled GMs are you going to have in the game? One per city? I thought the additional food in a city was a clever bonus...
 
Antilogic: CCCP is the Community Enhancement Project... you can find their forum here.

They've basically set out to add in as many new features and modifiers for modders as possible. The mod doesn't change much in and of itself, it's just specifically designed for modders. It's a great resource for those looking to make more creative changes to the game.
 
@Dom Pedro II: I cannot believe I haven't found that forum sooner. Thank you for pointing me over there! With the Python done for me, all I'll need to do is mod XML. Huzzah! :)
 
Ok, I gave it some thought:
Ziggurat
Ziggurats were originally temples, so a Ziggurat could be a Courthouse with +1 :), +1 :culture: and enable one priest specialst.

Babylonian Garden:
Retain +1 :health: and give it the abilty to store 10% :food: so a city with a Garden and a Granary will store 60% :food:. It is a new bonus that no other UB has and it will be useful when combined with Slavery but it won't increase the happiness cap.
 
Ok, I gave it some thought:
Ziggurat
Ziggurats were originally temples, so a Ziggurat could be a Courthouse with +1 :), +1 :culture: and enable one priest specialst.

Babylonian Garden:
Retain +1 :health: and give it the abilty to store 10% :food: so a city with a Garden and a Granary will store 60% :food:. It is a new bonus that no other UB has and it will be useful when combined with Slavery but it won't increase the happiness cap.

Good idea, at least for the Babylonian Garden...
 
I should almost turn this sucker into a poll so people can vote. I copied some of these ideas into my text file...now I'm just waiting to play a round as Babylon and Sumeria to see what happens.
 
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