Nationalism vs. Internationalism

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Godwynn said:
It is not arbitrary. I want you on the record. You cannot say you are for freedom and liberty equally for all people and think they are better off under Saddam Hussein.

I want freedom and liberty for all people, but with that I also want the right to life. Under Saddam, although personal freedoms of expression were extremely limited, their was still a greater chance of living. Additionally, had their been a rebellion, Saddam would have been out and their wouldn't be all of this violence.

I do not care about them, so they become non-humans? Does that make them monkey, a parrot, or a horse?

You really need to learn some basic English vocabulary. To dehumanize does not mean to make something a non human. According to wiktionary, it means:
"To take away humanity, to remove or deny human qualities, characteristics, or attributes."

I assume you supported the USA in liberating Nazi Germany and saving the Jews? Why not the Kurds in Iraq?

Because after Nazi Germany was defeated their wasn't a predicted civil war with massive civilian casualties. Also the death rate per year went down drastically after Nazi Germany was defeated, as opposed to it going up in Iraq.

Eran of Arcadia · Aug 10, 2007

So you support intervention when it turns out that it will work, and not intervention when it turns out it won't?

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
I want freedom and liberty for all people, but with that I also want the right to life.

Do you oppose abortion?

Under Saddam, although personal freedoms of expression were extremely limited, their was still a greater chance of living. Additionally, had their been a rebellion, Saddam would have been out and their wouldn't be all of this violence.

A rebellion is not guaranteed to succeed. Who is to say that there wouldn't have been a war for power, or that another dictator wouldn't have come to power?

You really need to learn some basic English vocabulary. To dehumanize does not mean to make something a non human. According to wiktionary, it means:
"To take away humanity, to remove or deny human qualities, characteristics, or attributes."

To take deny human qualities? How is me not caring about them denying them human qualities?

Because after Nazi Germany was defeated their wasn't a predicted civil war with massive civilian casualties. Also the death rate per year went down drastically after Nazi Germany was defeated, as opposed to it going up in Iraq.

So it is okay to have a dictator as long as not many people die afterwards? Gotcha.

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Eran of Arcadia said:
So you support intervention when it turns out that it will work, and not intervention when it turns out it won't?

Additionally, I wonder we would know this before an invasion. :rolleyes:

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Eran of Arcadia said:
I am proud to belong to this nation, which does in a way make me part of its great accomplishments (and in a way, its less-than-great ones as well). Now, the fact that I am American does not tell you much about my character, and of course I cannot take credit or receive blame for anything anyone else did, but it is one of the ways (although not the main one) I identify myself.

But in what ways does it make you part of it's accomplishments? Unless you had direct participation in something, you are only as much a part of it's accomplishments as you are of Britain's, or any other nations' accomplishments.

I would go so far as to say that the fact that you were born in the U.S. doesn't tell anything about your charactor. To assume a charactor based on a nation is doing the same thing as racism.

Eran of Arcadia · Aug 10, 2007

Well, are you proud to be a human? Why do you care about that so much?

Belonging to my nation is merely one of the levels at which I interact with other humans. I do not claim it is the only one, but it is important.

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Godwynn said:
Do you oppose abortion?

No, when I say the right to life, I mean the right to life for people, not unborn fetuses.

A rebellion is not guaranteed to succeed. Who is to say that there wouldn't have been a war for power, or that another dictator wouldn't have come to power?

I could reply to this with more hypothetical result of a rebellion, but in reality it is highly unprobably that the result would be worse than it is now. But we really could never know.

To take deny human qualities? How is me not caring about them denying them human qualities?

Unless you are a sociopath, which you very likely could be, then when you meet people you feel empathy for them, and if you see someone in pain and you can help them, then you probably do. But, according to you, you do not care about Iraquis. According to you, you could see an Iraqui being tortured and not care. You are removing the human qualities of feeling empathy for others.

So it is okay to have a dictator as long as not many people die afterwards? Gotcha.

Where do you come up with this stuff? When did I ever say it was ok to have a dictator? Of course it is not ok, it is just that if one has risen to power, which is a terrible thing, you must weigh the human toll of invading against the human toll of not invading.

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Eran of Arcadia said:
So you support intervention when it turns out that it will work, and not intervention when it turns out it won't?

Godwynn said:
Additionally, I wonder we would know this before an invasion.

Their were many people warning that their would be a civil war with civilian caulties when Iraq was invaded. Of course, Bush didn't listen to them, because he really doesn't care.

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
Their were many people warning that their would be a civil war with civilian caulties when Iraq was invaded. Of course, Bush didn't listen to them, because he really doesn't care.

I bet there were people telling him that there wouldn't be, quite possibly he believed them.

GenMarshall · Aug 10, 2007

American Internationalist.

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
I could reply to this with more hypothetical result of a rebellion, but in reality it is highly unprobably that the result would be worse than it is now. But we really could never know.

Correct, so it is better to not try?

Unless you are a sociopath, which you very likely could be, then when you meet people you feel empathy for them, and if you see someone in pain and you can help them, then you probably do. But, according to you, you do not care about Iraquis. According to you, you could see an Iraqui being tortured and not care. You are removing the human qualities of feeling empathy for others.

I haven't met an Iraqi.

What are you doing to help them?

Where do you come up with this stuff? When did I ever say it was ok to have a dictator? Of course it is not ok, it is just that if one has risen to power, which is a terrible thing, you must weigh the human toll of invading against the human toll of not invading.

Better to live on your knees than die on your feet?

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Godwynn said:
I bet there were people telling him that there wouldn't be, quite possibly he believed them.

Bush manipulated the intelligence regarding the weapons of mass destruction. Why should we believe that he didn't manipulate intelligence regarding a possible civil war?

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
Bush manipulated the intelligence regarding the weapons of mass destruction. Why should we believe that he didn't manipulate intelligence regarding a possible civil war?

I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Possibly he may have thought the American military could handle it.

What are you doing to help out the Iraqis?

wicshade · Aug 10, 2007

I voted myself to be a nationalist, but it seems after reading all of the posts, i am less human then that, i don't even care about the people in my own country. Or better said i care equaly as much for the people in my country as i do for people in other countries, so i might just be an internationalist.

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Godwynn said:
Correct, so it is better to not try?

Try what, giving you hypothetical examples? Don't you have an imagination? Make one up for yourself.

I haven't met an Iraqi.

What are you doing to help them?

So you're saying that if you met an Iraqi you would care about them? But doesn't that contradict you're statement that you don't care about Iraqis?

When I gave my example about helping people who you see are in need, I was simply giving an example of empathy. Although, I am helping Iraquis by voting for someone who help them via their foreign policy.

Better to live on your knees than die on your feet?

Tell that to those who got killed by suicide bombers this week.

Samuelson · Aug 10, 2007

Godwynn said:
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt. Possibly he may have thought the American military could handle it.

What are you doing to help out the Iraqis?

Benifit of the doubt? After manipulating U.S. intelligence, you give a president, who has armies of foreign policy advisors, the benifit of the doubt?

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
Try what, giving you hypothetical examples? Don't you have an imagination? Make one up for yourself.

It is better not to try to free people from oppressive dictators.

So you're saying that if you met an Iraqi you would care about them? But doesn't that contradict you're statement that you don't care about Iraqis?

Firstly, you said I should care about people I meet.

Secondly, if I met an Iraqi, I doubt they would be in Iraq, since I won't be traveling there anytime soon.

When I gave my example about helping people who you see are in need, I was simply giving an example of empathy. Although, I am helping Iraquis by voting for someone who help them via their foreign policy.

Their foreign policy. I bet it would help more if you vote for someone who will improve our foreign policy. Can you vote in Iraqi elections?

Tell that to those who got killed by suicide bombers this week.

Then, I think you should your OP should look like this:

To them I would say that all people want liberty and freedom*

*Unless their life is in danger during the process of becoming free.

Godwynn · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
Benifit of the doubt? After manipulating U.S. intelligence, you give a president, who has armies of foreign policy advisors, the benifit of the doubt?

Yes, I like the judicial policy of innocent until proven guilty.

Eran of Arcadia · Aug 10, 2007

Samuelson said:
No, when I say the right to life, I mean the right to life for people, not unborn fetuses.

So you are not so much an "internationalist" as a "post-birthist". You are drawing a line that is ultimately somewhat arbitrary.

El_Machinae · Aug 10, 2007

I'm a 'nice guy ist'.

I want what's best for people who try to be nice. In fact, I'm happy to engage in all types of long-term teamwork with people who've shown to be moral individuals.

unNice people can have nice lives too, I don't mind unless they're hurting others to get their fortunes.

Nationalism vs. Internationalism

Are you a Nationalist or an Internationalist?

I live in the U.S. and I am a Nationalist.

I live in the U.S. and I am an Internationalist.

I live in the E.U. and I am a Nationalist.

I live in the E.U. and I am an Internationalist.

I live somewhere else and I am a Nationalist.

I live somewhere else and I am an Internationalist.

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