Pre-FC/CrezNES Thread: 1836

Confirming Viet Nam.

Confirming Prussia.

christos200 said:

By the way, the source for my numbers is from: History of the Greeks, Modern Hellenism 1827-1864, Chapter 5, Politics and Economy (1835 - 1843), page 170 by Professor Giorgos Anstasiadis.

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Good enough for me.

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Here are some new rules I'm going to add to the front page. Please review them and tell me what you all think:

Special Rules for Vassals

Some countries in this NES are “vassals,” or in other words, states that are legally beholden to other states, called suzerains. The controlling state usually has a great deal of de facto control over the vassal, but, at least nominally, the vassal manages its own affairs.

If you are playing as a vassal state, you must keep in mind that your suzerain has more influence over you than another state might. They will have access to a number of levers that give them some control of your government, so it is worth toeing the line lest you incur their wrath. You will also automatically give a portion of your income each year to your suzerain. Nevertheless, it’s not all bad being a vassal. You’re not responsible for handling international affairs, meaning if any country picks a fight with you, they also pick a fight with your suzerain.

If you are playing as a suzerain, keep in mind that you’re responsible for your vassals. If they do something stupid, that’s something that you have to take care of. Not only that, but if things start getting really bad in a vassal state – you know, stability-wise – you’ll probably have to move on in there and clean things up. On the other hand, having a vassal is usually better than directly ruling an unruly populace – and you still get a large fraction of the tax income that that vassal earns. It’s a toss-up. A vassal that gets into an extraordinarily bad condition is usually weak enough to justify a direct annexation, but be careful that you aren’t stepping on anyone else’s toes!

Land Warfare Rules of Thumb

Here’s just a few things to keep in mind for perpetrating your wars on the land:

Attrition’s a jerk. In fair weather situations, it’s not as bad, but in hostile or extreme territories attrition whittles your force down something fierce. A good rule of thumb is 0.1% of your army lost to disease and attrition per day in hostile territory; twice that in hostile, nasty territory.

If things can go wrong, they will. No plan is perfect.

Attacking is hard. Sometimes it’s better to siege a fortified position than to attempt to assault it. It’s even better to defend if you can help it.

Training is determinant in how good your soldiers are at doing the soldier things, like march and load guns. It’s important, but sometimes doing is the best learning.

Leadership is very important: it trickles into everything. Good leaders keep the morale of their men high, know how to push them without exhausting them, and are creative and insightful tacticians. Bad leaders do none of these things.

Experienced armies know war. They are more resilient to exhaustion and morale loss and they can feel the course of battle in their blood. Experience, unfortunately, cannot be taught, so as an experienced army loses its parts and replaces them with fresh troops, it also loses some of its experience.

An army needs stuff to do stuff. It gets that stuff by means of lines of supply. The further away from your territory you deploy your soldiers, the more stressed your logistical situation becomes.

Finally, the most important rule of warfare: numbers matter. A lot. More mans and guns equals more winning

Naval Warfare Rules of Thumb

Naval bases are important. Your navy can’t sail all around the world without needing a safe haven to dock and restock between missions. If you want your navy to do things, make sure there are friendly harbors nearby.

Naval quality determines the kind and maintenance level of guns and ships you have. High naval quality means good boats with good stuff on the boats and good guns; low naval quality is pretty much the opposite.

Experienced sailors can tap into the high skill cap demanded of sailors in the 19th century. Highly experienced sailors are therefore much more effective than inexperienced ones.

Don’t be deceived by the fact that boats can’t paint your color on the map: sailing is the fastest way to get around, and the principle way that goods are moved. Find a way to work that to your advantage.

The Cost of Actions

Here’s a short list of some common actions, and the average cost these actions would probably incur. Keep in mind that this list indicates the "base" cost, and in fact the actual cost may be quite a bit lower depending on circumstances.

Minor administrative action (such as banning and seizing all tobacco, commissioning an investigative report, establishing some lookout towers sparsely across the frontier): 2% of your GDP
Moderate administrative action (such as subsidizing a business’ overhead for one year, employing many new government employees or soldiers, installing several small outposts throughout a territory): 6% of your GDP
Major administrative action (such as opening a new colony, annexing a large territory, facilitating a large demographic shift of any kind): 10% of your GDP
Minor construction project (such as a dock or a harbor base, or a large fortress): 500,000 Supply
Major construction project (such as a manufacturing center, or a railroad): 1,000,000 Supply

As the NES goes on, this list will be made more comprehensive.

This "base" cost will tell you what kind of minimum cost is necessary for efficacy. Now, these are not hard-and-fast expenses, but let's say you wanted to commission a report on corruption in your government. OK, so that's a minor administrative action. To make sure the report works, you need to allocate funds. So if your country's GDP is 50 million pounds, this action would require about ~2% of that, or 1 million pounds. So you can allocate just 500 thousand pounds, but then your report probably won't work so well. Meeting spending thresholds is important, but so is the quality of your orders. You can't make a program more effective just by throwing money at it!

These costs are guidelines. If you want to know costs in very specific terms for very specific projects, feel free to send me a PM - think of it as hiring consultants to help out (and no, it won't cost you anything).

Please note only some countries have the capability to start building railroads, and very primitive ones at that (the quality of railroad goes up with your Industry development score). Those countries with railroads already, or the capacity to build railroads, are:

Countries that can propagate railroads:

• United Kingdom
• France
• USA
• Belgium

So a minor administrative action would cost the Papal States 2.5 million pounds?

Confirming

AMERICA

Gangnam Style.

EDIT

A good rule of thumb is 0.1% of your army lost to disease and attrition per day in hostile territory; twice that in hostile, nasty territory.

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Standard Attrition
Heavy Attrition

3 Months is about the Summer Campaigning Season. 9 Months is about the Extended Campaigning Season.

And wow, those attrition rates are huge taken directly from the rule of thumb (obviously, specific conditions will be taken into account. Right? Right?) Good thing reserves and reinforcements are calculated automatically!

What I find is that by the end the light attrition is catching up because of the shear lack of people for the Heavy attrition to kill off. 0.0

I'm confirming France. For the purpose of the stats I think it would be fair to associate the nouveau-Bonapartists with the Liberal faction, even if it's not a perfect match.

Incidentally, has fc even posted in this thread yet?

Shadowbound said:

So a minor administrative action would cost the Papal States 2.5 million pounds?

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Fair question. I failed to consider relative administrative efficiency when deriving those costs. I've edited in a fix.

Terrance888 said:

And wow, those attrition rates are huge taken directly from the rule of thumb (obviously, specific conditions will be taken into account. Right? Right?) Good thing reserves and reinforcements are calculated automatically!

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Yeah, man. Attrition's a killer.

That it is, bro.

From what historical data I can find, Denmark's population and GDP are quite inflated for the time period; I've found that their population was about 1 315 000 and their GDP was about £17 980 K. I've also calculated that their growth rate at this time was +0.77% per year, not 0.66%.

Confirming Two Sicilies

DC123456789 said:

From what historical data I can find, Denmark's population and GDP are quite inflated for the time period; I've found that their population was about 1 315 000 and their GDP was about £17 980 K. I've also calculated that their growth rate at this time was +0.77% per year, not 0.66%.

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Is the population number all of Denmark? Does it include Schleswig, for the purposes of this NES directly a part of Denmark?

Also, GDP growth is calculated automatically based on economic conditions, so some variation is to be expected.

I'm not sure, exactly, but I don't think that the inclusion or exclusion of Schleswig would make such a large difference in population. Besides, its modern population is less than a million, so the difference made would probably have only been roughly 240 000, which doesn't really account for the difference.

This site is a nice resource for historical population data, if you need it.

DC123456789 said:

I'm not sure, exactly, but I don't think that the inclusion or exclusion of Schleswig would make such a large difference in population. Besides, its modern population is less than a million, so the difference made would probably have only been roughly 240 000, which doesn't really account for the difference.

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OK, I'll double check my facts.

I'd just keep with what you've got Crezth. It's the gold standard for population statistics.

Crezth said:

That's very gracious of you. If Jehoshua accepts I'll swap you guys around. I think Jeho would make a fine Austria anyway (even if it means paying respects to the Shadowpope).

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I accept this swap and confirm Austria. Afterall, If Im not the Pope (and I didn't want to be) there needs to be someone prepared to perhaps being prepa depose the Pope and precipitate a new conclave if he abdicates the Holy See via becoming a heretic. . Oh and act as Defensor Fidei in the event of Italian shenanigans.

Crezth said:

suzerain

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lol fu

this is a confirmation post or something

Grandkhan said:

There's also the War of the Farappos and the Cabanagem, which are actually ongoing and at their height as of 1836, another thing that I completely forgot about.

Vicky is bad at South America.

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I remember those from the VIP Vicky mod! That was a long time ago.

Requesting:

1. Belgium, if theDright doesn't take them.
* Sign myself into perpetual neutrality, then play the fun-fun-fun industrial game

2. Wallachia / Moldavia when/if they open up.
* Roleplay nicely as the Porte/Moscow-appointed ruler until either the ruler becomes a scheming/nationalistic historical character, or independence happens. Then have fun trying to unify Greater Romania while juggling the titans that surround me.

3. Nascent Romanian nationalistic groups, when/if non-governmental entities become available for the playing. Probably Wallachia's "Literary Society".
* Do what Romanian revolutionaries do: take power for less than a year, then spend a decade bouncing between Austrian, Russian, and Turkish prisons.

Confirming Egypt. Also liking the rule set and costs.