LENES: That Noisome Silence

I'm also willing to incorporate the Empire into my mythos Thlayli, if I know how far it extended at its height.
 
It probably had at least a measurable amount of power and influence anywhere close to the great inland sea, though the coastal regions that are still above-water would have been outlying dependencies or borderlands.

The best thing you can do SK, is to figure out how your elves mesh with Golden's elves. Given that your elves hate the gods, perhaps you're related to the "dark elves" in Golden's mythos, and might have helped the Empire at one point, since the Empire also hated the gods.

I think that my people, a group of refugees from its destruction, will flee to the northwest, probably towards that large lake. Presumably pursued by Golden's elves. :p

Though a separate house of men (the House of Huol) has lived isolated in the far north for a long time, they weren't part of the Empire.
 
I'd be willing to cooperate but I'm not sure how much of my back story will fit with a large empire.
 
Honestly I think it's fine as it is. The "Doom" sounds a lot like the catastrophe that wiped out the Empire anyways. The pre-imperial history was probably so traumatic that the gnomes just focused on what came after.

Though since you're living on one of the islands, you might be surrounded by a bunch of huge, crumbling ruins of incomprehensible sophistication.
 
If anyone wants to participate in the shared mythos that Golden1Knight, terrance, and myself are assembling, please let me know.

The general idea is that the inland sea was once home to an Empire (often called Arnval, though it had many names) in which men and dragons ruled over various "lesser" races. The Emperor's name was Tyrath, a dragon of incredible power that claimed to be the son of a fallen god. Under him was the High King of Men, and many lesser kings.

The Elves (at least of the lighter sort) under King Eledaen were the main opposing force to this Empire during the elder days. Orcs at various times have fought for or against the Empire. Ultimately, the Empire tried to challenge the gods themselves, and while they managed to kill at least one god, they were ultimately unsuccessful, and Arnval itself was destroyed by the divine flood. Tyrath himself flew into a volcano, never to be seen again (presumably).

The start of the NES could be considered as having begun just after the catastrophe in which the Empire (except for a few fragments) was destroyed.

Especially if you live near the inland sea, it would be good to consider linking your backstories at least peripherally to this one.

I'm happy to incorporate the Morathi into this (presumably as a remnant of Empire?) and will edit the background appropriately. It actually works out pretty well considering the mythos regarding elves, and the understanding that the Morathi gods tend towards being capricious if not outright evil, which one would think is conductive ideologically to the Empires attempts to challenge the gods.
 
I'm willing to cooperate if you need some kind of barbarian tribe as a perennial enemy of the Empire. I'm not sure how far south the Empire got, but if it crossed onto the other side that big mountain range is pretty much a natural border.
 
Sounds good, guys. I encourage you to consult the lore I've written so far, and I'll try to put up another chapter on Wednesday, detailing the further rise of the Empire, its challenge to the gods, and its ultimate fall.

Spoiler The Lore I've Written So Far :
Yn Ertanjos [Of the Fall of Njos]
Melo Unaieldan [An Alternate Account of the Fall of Njos]

Yn Raghir Jormvardn - The Saga of the Dragon Kings

I. Of the Houses of Men and the Waking Days
II. Of the Line of Varald and the Coming of Tyrath

By no means do you have to slavishly imitate it; I'd imagine some of this would be twisted around considerably by the time it makes it into your cultures. I also want to reference *your* historical events, it's not just a one-way street. :p

Golden1Knight, I'm interested to know how Eledaen would respond to the growing power of the Empire, and what you think his ultimate fate might be. I'm kind of setting him up to be the primary antagonist to Emperor Tyrath for a while.
 
Not to mention the accounts are clearly not gospel truths themselves since they reflect the accounts of specific perspectives and peoples (number 1 of the Yn Raghir Jormvardn as you say being specifically from the men influenced by elves for example).

Anyways the lore is good, and I've edited my sign up page (mythos section, and the religion section) to include Njos (Nejosh) and the exodus of the Morathi from Arndval under the Morah (the first one, although my thought is that "it" is perpetually re-embodied through time and is thus really a single being, and is something not quite human), the actual process of which I've left somewhat vague to allow for creative license.
 
Some convoluted thoughts on Thlayli's epic

I am completely behind Thlayli on what he is doing, thematically and stylistically and all that, with the dragon kings and slaves and human v. elf with orcs sometimes involved great myth, but I would like to think it is understood that these conflicts and the "empire" involved in them are largely myths attributed to the reigns of great kings or leaders whose accomplishments cannot be adequately verified historically. Essentially, that these events have a mythic and religious significance that is more concretely established than any political or archaeological one. The capital of the empire being sunk underneath a sea works well for this. So far I'm fairly satisfied that this "works" with the idea that, for all intents and purposes, the NES begins pretty close to the very beginning of recorded history. I like to think of Thlayli's background as being equivalent more to a Gilgamesh or King Arthur epic than an accurate, verifiable account of historical events.

What is more concerning is the attribution of fixed geopolitical borders to the empire which feel out of place with the general setting of "the beginning of recorded history." I definitely do not want every culture on the southern continent having some variant of Thlayli's founding myth. Perhaps relation to, or knowledge of, but if there's going to be a great, culture and politics-defining hegemony it should definitely exist within the scope of the NES, not prior to it.

I don't know. It is very well written and is at its core good material, but there are some aspects to it that feel awkward given the setting. Does this make any sense? So far I have no complaints that are serious or concrete enough to warrant any kind of restructuring.
 
I feel as if the Harashabul would have a different origin story regarding the origin of all people, with maybe some slight influences from the other one (something I will have to work on). Regarding the empire itself, they would have been totally opposed to it, perhaps even to the point of banding together, since a dragon being a god would have been totally absurd to them. In modern times, I think this could be relevant through the desire of some Harashabul to go back to the old days of legend where all strongholds were united under a pantheon of god-kings.
 
I don't think Tyrnath claimed to be a god (seeing as he opposed them) but rather to be the "firstborn of Njos", in the sense of being the first dragon to emerge from that gods death and thus being a "son" of that deity. That said I'm not sure the dwarves would necessarily have been opposed (at least at first), since after all the men of Ardval were primarily enemies to the elves and orcs, and such a large Empire would serve as a prime trading partner for the strongholds. Perhaps when Tyrnath and Ardval made war against the gods though the Harashabul would have raised up arms against the Empire in fear and outrage.
 
Oh, right, somehow I missed that or misinterpreted it. I think the reaction would still generally be the same, though.
 
Angst, I think TMG already claimed that area in the NES development thread.

Jehoshua, those are all very cogent and intelligent ideas and for my part, I like them.

Some convoluted thoughts on Thlayli's epic

I am completely behind Thlayli on what he is doing, thematically and stylistically and all that, with the dragon kings and slaves and human v. elf with orcs sometimes involved great myth, but I would like to think it is understood that these conflicts and the "empire" involved in them are largely myths attributed to the reigns of great kings or leaders whose accomplishments cannot be adequately verified historically. Essentially, that these events have a mythic and religious significance that is more concretely established than any political or archaeological one. The capital of the empire being sunk underneath a sea works well for this. So far I'm fairly satisfied that this "works" with the idea that, for all intents and purposes, the NES begins pretty close to the very beginning of recorded history. I like to think of Thlayli's background as being equivalent more to a Gilgamesh or King Arthur epic than an accurate, verifiable account of historical events.

What is more concerning is the attribution of fixed geopolitical borders to the empire which feel out of place with the general setting of "the beginning of recorded history." I definitely do not want every culture on the southern continent having some variant of Thlayli's founding myth. Perhaps relation to, or knowledge of, but if there's going to be a great, culture and politics-defining hegemony it should definitely exist within the scope of the NES, not prior to it.

I don't know. It is very well written and is at its core good material, but there are some aspects to it that feel awkward given the setting. Does this make any sense? So far I have no complaints that are serious or concrete enough to warrant any kind of restructuring.

Dear sir, while I am no great scholar of history, I have taken great pains on multiple occasions to assert that by no means is my lore an objective account. Furthermore, I have not expressed defined geopolitical boundaries, as much as a sphere of influence, belonging to the Empire, which used client kings and other such relationships, a veritable patchwork of smaller human (and later, orcish) kingdoms. And I've asked players to reference my backstory, not copy it. You're expressing alarm in response to things I've already said I don't want. :p

Please cease your expressions of alarm, for even if my account were an objective and true account of events (which I have explicitly presented it as not necessarily being,) there is absolutely no way of verifying it as such. We're actually in complete agreement on all the major points you've made. :p

Furthermore, for someone who wants a Tolkienesque NES, you're really seeming to shy away from the grand, sweeping, epic nature of early Arda's history. You have to remember that although this is a NES that aims to recreate realistic geopolitical structures, it's also a NES with elves and orcs and magic, and as such we can stretch the boundaries of the plausible slightly. Or, at least, to create a *new* plausibility that makes sense within the confines of the world.

And further furthermore, the rise, and fall, of the Empire, is honestly an event which I can *only* carry out in the Update 0/Update 1 of the NES, as its accomplishments were so grandiose and obviously magical as to not be replicated in a later era of history.

As to your vague feeling of awkward elements unique to my backstory, tell me what exactly these are and I'll do my best to address them. :)

One of the ways to make a game interesting (as I always like to do) is to set up great ideological and political conflicts, reasons to hate and sacrifice and reach out from one's own little world. To truly connect players with common goals, even if players are diametrically opposed and trying to accomplish them at the expense of one another. Even if this steps on some people's toes, I think it's better to have people forced out of their own little comfort zones and into a world where great legacies have already been made, lost, and call out to be *re*made, on the backs of the other players if necessary.

That is the philosophy I've always tried to apply in helping EoE to be as good as it can be, and that's what I want to offer here.
 
Angst, I think TMG already claimed that area in the NES development thread.

I admit to taking some issue in seeing prethread thru-development preclaims as being legitimate, especially as they're easily missed and people somehow tend to ignore me when I do it. It is never a careless choice and I have invested in picking the location with great consideration. But on the other hand I spent a lot of time choosing between this place and another, so I may easily concede. I'll try to edit in a new claim then TheMeanestGuest can have his cake.

edit. tryin again

Spoiler :
 
I suggest terrance that you pick a spot in the desert (around one the lakes?) since that region is pretty uninhabited at the moment giving you plenty of room to expand. Its also located reasonably near to the other orcish realms which ensures there's a reasonable geographical believability that the desert area is the place of origin.

With regards to claims, I personally would think that unless you take the effort to mark out where precisely you are on the map, that you can't really claim any specific region is yours. There is simply too much ambiguity otherwise with saying something like "between the two rivers north of the mountains south of the inner sea" or something of that nature.
 
@Thlayli, I mean, point taken. Nevertheless I have some qualms with a quasi-prehistoric empire existing hundreds, potentially thousands of years, prior to the existence of the somewhat tribal cultures evinced elsewhere. Even so I still approve very much of what you are doing on the whole, so I'm not going to rock the boat yet.

@angst, I specifically said in the New NESes thread that territorial claims made prior to the thread would not be respected. Or at least, I'm pretty certain I did. :ack:
 
@Thlayli, I mean, point taken. Nevertheless I have some qualms with a quasi-prehistoric empire existing hundreds, potentially thousands of years, prior to the existence of the somewhat tribal cultures evinced elsewhere.

You must have serious problems with Earth history then. :mischief:

And TMG's dwarves make more sense in that mountain range and angst has been kind enough to pick another spot, so...

Sorry for challenging you on SO MANY THINGS all at once, LoE, but you know I love you.
 
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