A New Scientific Trait Idea (?)

Do you agree with this Bonus?

  • Yes, it's a good idea, and fine as is.

    Votes: 8 38.1%
  • Yes, it's a good idea, but it needs to be toned down.

    Votes: 6 28.6%
  • Yes, it's a good idea, but it's too weak.

    Votes: 3 14.3%
  • No, bad idea.

    Votes: 4 19.0%

  • Total voters
    21
Joined
Sep 2, 2006
Messages
15,602
Well, some brainstorming has finally paid off for me. I'd like to share this idea for a new leader trait, that is hopefully distinct from the other suggestions for the Scientific trait. If this has been posted by somebody else, then I'll apologize, but as far as I can tell, it's a relatively new/unconsidered approach to the Scientific trait.

The problem with previous approaches, in my opinion, has been one of overlap. The Financial trait gives extra commerce which can be translated to science, and Philosophical boosts great people, such as great scientists. Creative gives double production libraries, and Philosophical gives double production universities. So, I've avoided infringing on those benefits. That means no straight +% bonuses to science, because it's too similar to the extra commerce from Financial, just for science. No boosts to great scientists, or extra great scientists, etc. because of Philosophical.

Thus, the proposed trait is...

Academic
+3/4 :science: per population point
+100% production on observatories, research labs


The strategy for this is to make it independent of whether you run a cottage economy or a specialist economy, although it is slightly stronger for a specialist-style economy because of the extra population. It's different from Financial because it is not tied to how much commerce you are bringing in, but rather your overall population. In a weird way, it has synergy with Expansive, because the extra health allows more population and thus more free science, and Imperialistic, because early expansion will net you more free science just for settling cities. It is very strong in the early game, where having a population 4 city will essentially net you a scientist specialist's worth of extra science. In the late game, though, where you have many towns with the Free Speech and Printing Press extra commerce, or several science specialists, it would appear a little less powerful. That's where the observatory and research lab production bonus comes in, to give the trait some utility later in the game.

These production bonuses can be sacrificed if the trait is shown in playtesting to be too strong, or the amount of beakers you receive per population point can be adjusted (anything more than 1 per population point is ridiculous in my opinion, although between 2/3 and 4/5 might be better balanced than my figure).

Well, I made it a poll on purpose. Go ahead and vote, or post about it. This is definitely on my wishlist for Civ5, and for Civ4 if they make another expansion, although for some reason I don't believe the Firaxians will do so. Except for its minor bugs, BtS seems too "finished" to me for another full expansion.
 
that s good but it needs to be toned down a bit


Here is what i want

Seafaring- +50% chance to start off near the coast

+2 Xp to all naval units

and of course faster production of lighthouse and harbor,


what do you think
 
I wish the poll was a little more helpful in this case. I was considering one beaker per population point, decided that was too much, and went with 3/4 beaker per population point.

Honestly, I'm not a fan of seafaring traits, because, given the map types available, you can make it utterly useless based on that selection. No other traits are as utterly vulnerable to this as a seafaring trait is. Not to mention your double production buildings are already used in the game by the Organized and Expansive traits, so that would require reworking.

The map type argument is also the reason why I object to the naval UUs...but at least the Dutch have enough other good things to balance it out, though. Can't say the same for the Portuguese.




You know, given the number of leader threads that mention traits and the seeming enthusiasm for which new traits are posted, an actual thread itself about a new trait generates a disappointingly low amount of attention.
 
You know, given the number of leader threads that mention traits and the seeming enthusiasm for which new traits are posted, an actual thread itself about a new trait generates a disappointingly low amount of attention.

Perhaps that's because you've made a clear effort to keep it balanced?! Compared to other traits, the bonus is only "average" :mischief:

But of course, that is the point. I think that's a refreshing take on the scientific trait and well thought out.

Balance-wise, I agree with your assessment. In the late game it's effects per city, even in a dedicated science city, are unlikely to amount to even 1% of a tech cost; the cheaper observatories and research labs help offset that. It's the early game where this trait will have the biggest difference.

Assuming a non-specialist economy, in the very early game a bonus for each pop-point is roughly equivalent a bonus for each worked tile. Comparing this scientific trait with the financial trait, the former has flexibility in that it doesn't require the extra pop to be doing anything specific and the latter has flexibility in that it can be converted to :gold: or :science: (and eventually :culture: or :espionage: later on). I'd argue the former is more flexible early on as it's less tied to terrain improvements on land, so less vulnerable to barbarians and early pillaging. 3/4 :science: per pop point is certainly a good start.

My only concern would be how well it ties in with other traits that directly help science. How powerful would financial + scientific be? For other civs without some lucky early commerce tiles like gold or gems, it might be nigh on impossible to keep up with that kind of science leader. Then again, philosophical + scientific running a scientist specialist economy could pump out technologies pretty fast as well with half price universities and observatories keeping the momentum going a little further than normal. The synergies you note with other traits are also very handy though, so perhaps this trait isn't too bad. It's certainly not obviously overpowered.

All in all, my gut feel says this is a good start at a balanced scientific trait, whilst still being different enough from the others.
 
I know, curse my attempts to produce a balanced, well-thought-out modification to the game (or addition to the body of Civ5 wants). The advantage of this trait with respect to balancing is that the major benefit, the beakers per population point, can be toned down or tuned up based on player experience to any other arbitrary fraction (okay, relatively simple fractions, but still...).

My initial guidance was to give an average of scientist specialists' worth of beakers to a 4 population town. I was initially considering 1:1, every population point produces a beaker, but I figured there would be severe protests to that figure. So, I picked 3/4 as a compromise. The strategy you would use with the trait is not the dedicated "science city" per se, but rather spreading out your beaker production--any big city, even a production city, could produce a decent amount of research. Your big science cities won't really notice the effect too much, but your smaller cities, the border cities or the arctic cities, or maybe your factories, will notice a clear boost in science.

The extra synergies I noted were beyond the obvious...it really meshes well with many traits. I figured the Academic/Philosophical or Academic/Financial might be a forbidden combination like Industrious/Philosophical, although I would wait to playtest the combinations first. It might turn out like the Agg/Cha trait combo, which everyone assumed was too strong but turned out to be not utterly ridiculous in practice (just ridiculous, but not to the same degree predicted).


On a side note, I'm glad I finally have a sample size of more than 2! Unfortunately, 7 isn't that much greater...what does everybody else think?
 
Boring, I think. Financial, organized will do just fine. Organized depends on population. More population - more upkeep. Organized halfs this upkeep. More population - more science. What you are proposing is exactly the same.

Second. You are focusing on not very important features. You are bounding expansive with higher population. But 1st) Population does not appear from the air. If expansive gave more growth, not health ... 2nd) Personally I sell health resources cause of point 1, I do not need so many of them before industrial age unless I am isolated. And this way expansive is similar to organized, but only similar. One trade resource for cash can act like 2 free courthouses or like reduced civic upkeep.
 
But the good thing of your idea is that you get direct vision of your science. I would prefer your idea rather than organized. I never cannot tell how much my upkeep is until I check it in F2 screen. I only know I can run my science slider on 80-100 percent all the game (immortal-deity). That's also another good thing of organized - you do not need have banks, markets too early ;)
 
Boring, I think. Financial, organized will do just fine. Organized depends on population. More population - more upkeep. Organized halfs this upkeep. More population - more science. What you are proposing is exactly the same.

Second. You are focusing on not very important features. You are bounding expansive with higher population. But 1st) Population does not appear from the air. If expansive gave more growth, not health ... 2nd) Personally I sell health resources cause of point 1, I do not need so many of them before industrial age unless I am isolated. And this way expansive is similar to organized, but only similar. One trade resource for cash can act like 2 free courthouses or like reduced civic upkeep.

On your first point, I disagree. Organized affects one specific kind of maintenance, and only then is population partly responsible, as it also depends on number of cities. And even then, Organized only affects Civics upkeep, so if you pick low cost civics then Organized doesn't have that great of an effect. Obviously, my trait proposal doesn't have this dependency on civics choices, so there is still some independence there as well.

Expansive, especially in the Industrial Age, is associated with higher overall population since pollution gets out of hand. You may note from the wording in the original post that I directly acknowledge this, as in the extra health means you can support a larger population. It also, in the loosest sense, promotes growth due to double production on granaries. I fail to see how your last point makes any sense though...one trade resource is like courthouses? How?
 
@Antilogic: Again, you are focusing too much on not very important aspects. I said that organized is affected by population and you are rapidly seeking weak aspects of my thesis. What I said is basiccaly true. This way we can talk till the judgment day ;). I believe to much analysis is nothing good.

2 courthouses ... explanation. You have 2 additional health so you do not need banana, so you are selling bananas for f.e. 6 gold per turn. This way expansive works similar to organized - it allows you running higher on a science slider. Cheap granaries mean nothing - it's a cheap building anyway and it must be built in any city. On higher levels tech pace is strong and your cities size is rather happiness-dependant than health-dependant. It's important to build conncetion to your neighbours fast to get happiness resources. Health ain't a problem usually. While unhealthiness decreases your growth by 1, unhappiness decreases your growth by 2 and also decreases some of your commerce and production. I believe you know that well. On immortal-deity it's very important not to whip to often and let your cities grow. Expansive won't help you too much in growth. You could counter me - Hereditary rule - on higher levels there are better things to build than weak units. You are right about point 2 - it doesn not make a lot of sense - consider this as expansion of point 1.
 
From my experience taking into consider that Organized is dependant on population or number of cities is a dead-end. I never met a person who takes into consider those things. The best model is simple - organized allows you running higher on a science slider. Other aspects of organized are harder to describe (cheap specific buildings). Someone said once wisely that he never takes into consider the price of civics. I fully agree with that except one civic maybe - pacifism. I do not believe that you disagree with that :)
 
Generally your idea is better than current organized trait, but I do not understand the reasons to put another economical trait that works very similar. To make game interesting we must take into consider every aspect of the game, put new values into the game. It requires work and without work there will be no results. F.E. Spiritual is completely different than organized while scientific is almost the same. Boring.
 
Giaur, edit your posts when posting new stuff, plz...

I like the idea. I would suggest, however, tacking on Libraries and Universities to the bonus list, but bringing the % down to 50.
 
I think the Trait is very good and very innovative, actually... Nicely made, good balance etc.

On a sidenote, have you thought about sharing the idea with the modders in here? The WoL team is especially some dudes I think would be happy to see this idea.
 
From my experience taking into consider that Organized is dependant on population or number of cities is a dead-end. I never met a person who takes into consider those things. The best model is simple - organized allows you running higher on a science slider. Other aspects of organized are harder to describe (cheap specific buildings). Someone said once wisely that he never takes into consider the price of civics. I fully agree with that except one civic maybe - pacifism. I do not believe that you disagree with that :)

The thing is, this trait does not affect your science slider whatsoever, but allows you to get science independent of the slider. In that fashion, it is more similar to Philosophical than Organized. Yes, you generate more science, but that is not the same as running a high science slider.

Also, this trait has the effect of "decentralizing" your science production...since all population produces science, irrelevant of how you design your cities (whether you go for a high-production, a cottage-style, or a specialist-style city), all cities will generate more science. This is vastly unlike the current Financial and Philosophical trait strategies, where players tend to specialize their cities more. This trait gives a bonus that cannot be specialized to particular locales.

I will admit my surprise, however, that Organized is the trait that "appears" most similar to the new Academic trait, Giaur. If anything, it has proven my success of differentiating it from the Financial and Philosophical traits.

The only thing I can say is that it is more independent of other traits than previous suggestions for a science-specific trait. Of course it is going to have a little overlap--Firaxis has already done a pretty good job of covering the spread of game mechanics with traits, with the exception of the brand new corporations and espionage systems.

The one thing I don't appreciate is the accusation that I haven't put any work into this. Trust me, it took me awhile to come up with something that was at least presentable as a trait and not some brokenly strong or utterly frivolous suggestion.


@Gooblah: The reason why I am avoiding the libraries and universities is because those two buildings already have double-production bonuses from other traits (Creative and Philosophical). Since Firaxis has never given two traits the same double-production building, I have kept that spirit alive with the buildings I selected for this trait. That also has the added effect of not requiring any other modification to any other trait for the addition of this one.

@lord_joakim: I am somewhat of an amateur modder myself, but I am only working with XML right now and ideas for balanced gameplay. I was building my mod around the first BtS patch released, but then Firaxis went and patched the game up to 3.13, so I've had to start all over again. And, being that I don't have much free time, the AMM will likely not be available until the Winter holidays have passed. However, I post suggestions here with the idea that others will respond and hopefully use them, and thus its free for use so long as I get some credit. ;)
 
@Antilogic:

Academic trait is similar to espionage system. Small low-commerce cities can have great espionage, because only 3 buildings are to be built (jail, security bureau and inteligence agency). More developed cities can run spies to expand espionage but with smaller effect.

If I wanted new trait, I would rather like something that increases espionage, because none trait supports it now. And seiing research of any rival is always something valuable. If you wanted academic in the current form, I'd rather wanted it to replace organized.

btw. I understand, your idea decentralizes science. But there is hyphotetical question - why not to decentralize production too? It would allow smaller, late-founded cities grow faster. It's more important than science. Imagine you have a coastal no-production city and wish to have Moai Statue there. With only 1 hammer per turn. It would be better to wait for Universal Suffrage first und buy-rush it. With 3 hammers it changes everything. Such a small bonus. Science is boring.

I made once trait which replaces expansive (it was even implemented):
+1 hammer from water tiles (no other bonuses)
And I was able to figure it out what can I use this trait for. On higher levels there is a problem sometimes in founding 6 cities. Now you can found a coastal city and this this trait helps to get Oxford University, 2 cathedrals, Forbiden Palace etc.
You might say it is overpowered. I won't be arguing with that. I might say that financial is overpowered too. My point is that I knew what is the stregth (and more important - acttractiveness) of a new trait.

Here are some of my considerations ... I think it's no much difference if you are running at 80 percent under organized or under 70 percent under financial or under 60 percent under academic or any other trait. I am never interested how high is my science slider. It says nothing except maybe in specialist economy. (when you are running at 0 percent and you are going broke, that's not good ;). Usually library is to be built in any city I think (sometimes sooner, sometimes later), because every city has solid commerce, due to foreign trade. Why people build monasteries (only 10 percent to science) in the capital? Because it usually pays off (Bure). Libraries have stronger bonus and they are usually to be built in every city, so academic trait does not change your strategy. Specialization comes usually too late. Oxford in reinassance. Ironworks in Industrial (I sometimes leave towns near ironworks, because it takes a lot of time to grow them and constructing library in IW city takes one turn). And later you have to build library in any city, because of more foreign trade routes (I've just said about that). Sometimes you build library-university in a low-commerce city just to unlock Oxford faster. So still your strategy does not change with academic trait I think. Perhaps not decentralization is the way to go. Perhaps centralization f.e. city's maintanace is substracted from city's base commerce. This way you get city's real commerce. This way you get an advantage. Building libraries in cities with big maintanace costs bring no longer benefits. But it pay's off. You can run at 80 percent (there is inflation and civic upkeep anyway) and specializing your science factories. You do not have to build libraries in every city (you do not need courthouses) - this mean hammers can be spent on units. But I think the same thing should concern production, great people growth, wallstreet etc. I need the trait that supports specialization - hammer savings. I am a player who does not favour specialization. Why? Because no trait supports specialization. Maybe with one exception. I can run at 100 percent on science slider (organized helps) due to many resource for cash transactions. I beg often for gold. So I do not need markets, banks, until I adopt Universal Suffrage. It's a difficult task anyway - because running at 100 percent favours libraries, while running at 0 percent (in CE) favours markets, banks - never both. I think I will better wait till Civ5 is released. There are many ways to support specialization, but Firaxis is lazy, I think.
I repeat - your idea is better than current organized trait (for many reasons), but third trait basing on science is too much.

btw. once more. Pools point that expansive is the weakest trait and nor I nor you nor anyone change it. It's such a digression.
 
Could you please tell me how boring the trait is one more time? Please, I just missed it the first dozen or two times you mentioned it. If you disagree with it, fine (I'm having a little difficulty parsing together what you mean). I assume you cast your vote that it was a bad idea.

The reason why I'm not talking about decentralizing production is because my trait idea is about a new scientific trait, not a new production trait. Remember, I opened this thread for the Academic trait idea, not for a new production trait.

I also don't know what polls you are working from, but Imperialistic and Protective tend to get the short end now. Expansive is typically thought of as better now that it has both a worker production bonus and a health bonus. Could you provide a link as to which recent polls show that Expansive is the most hated trait?
 
I think it's boring because it adds research. Both financial and organized do that already.

Here is the link, where players listed traits in order of their usefullness.
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=242852

btw. Poll you made was badly-prepared. That was the only reason I voted for No ;).

So feel proud, because players like your idea. It would be good to ask someone to make a mod, as someone mentioned it earlier.

And yes, protective, immperialistic are right behind expansive ;). I've heard that expansive does well in OCC, but it's the only good purpose for that trait.
 
That was sarcasm, by the way. It looks like you missed it...sometimes you have to read my sig and remember I'll throw a comment like that in every so often.

By the way, you didn't link to a poll where votes were tallied, just a thread, and a number of people disagreed with your "Expansive is the lowest" hypothesis. According to a poll from the Warlords forums, Expansive still rates higher than both Imperalistic and Protective, with a sample size of more than 400: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=187815. And that was before the worker buff, if I'm not mistaken, so it could be even higher on player lists now.

I have to admit my surprise when I had to look so far back to find a poll...it seemed like these trait polls were all the rage last year, but not so much recently.

Care to explain why the poll was badly prepared? I thought each option was quite clearly defined, and all you had to do was read the OP. Doesn't strike me as that badly-prepared at all.
 
Sarcasm excludes disscussion.

I checked. Expansive was not the worst, so I was wrong. The only argument I can put is that expansive is a trait for any players, while immperialistic, protective are useful for warmongers (I do not remember the spelling). So peaceful builders are more likely to put expansive above those two.

About poll preparation. I would have been glad seeing such options:
- Yes. Academic is a good proposal, but it should replace some other trait
- Yes. Academic is a good proposal and there is no need to replace existing trait
 
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