Archery

iamnleth

Warlord
Joined
Dec 25, 2005
Messages
275
Location
United States
The longer I think about it, the more I like I agree with Snaaty (for those who don't know, one of the few members of this forum that advocate early archery on high levels).

I had my doubts about it before, but when I started up a game as Elizabeth (immortal) and curiously entered the world builder (trying to get a general idea of how rare horse/copper are), I was shocked to find out that neither of them were within 25 tiles of my capital (Justinian was lucky enough to have copper and horses in his BFC). Granted, I had iron in my BFC, but researching iron working this early is out of the way unless you're surrounded by a large swath of jungle. In this situation, you would have to research archery to expand.

Anyway, it's a bit hard to grab copper or horses before the barbs start showing up around 1500 BC. If you research bronze working and find that there's no copper anywhere near you, you'd virtually have to go archery before you could expand, wouldn't you? considering that the barbs will enter your territory once your second city is up, animal husbandry probably couldn't be researched/hooked up before the barbs become eager to kill and pillage. I don't think that a city with even two warriors is going to last long given the agression of the barbarians on immortal, but perhaps I'm wrong? Another point to consider is that getting those early fog-busters out is very beneficial. You can possibly avoid contact with many barbarians that you would've had to deal with had you been waiting on your worker to road/mine copper!

Taking all of that in, my experience with the higher levels is none, and thus my knowledge limited. I need enlightenment! :)
 
Hunting and archery are two very cheap techs that get you instat city protection. I will rarely not tech archery within the first 4 techs exceptions being leaders with resourceless UUs (Pacal, SB, HC).

Some leaders I may greatly delay it depending on starting techs and trait

Examples

Stalin: starts with mining and is agressive, so I tech BW first

Mongols: Start with hnting/wheel so I got AH for possible fast chariots. Archery is still one tech away.

Egyptians: Agr/wheel: tech AH for possible war chariots, they alreayd have a good food tech.

Much better to be safe than sorry IMHO.
 
I can't remember a game where I researched archery before BW/AH. I find warriors to be sufficient if needed but I'll just trow in the cliché "all depends". There is quite some time between barbs showing up and barbs actually entering borders.
 
AH is cheaper than BW. And in my experience (Immortal level) u can get yer first chariot out before barbs enter borders. you just need to build a few more of those, and you're safe.

but if i don't get horses, i seriously consider going for archery (esp, if i have hunting already)
 
I can't remember a game where I researched archery before BW/AH. I find warriors to be sufficient if needed but I'll just trow in the cliché "all depends". There is quite some time between barbs showing up and barbs actually entering borders.

Agreed. I usually tech BW first (to check if I already have copper in my BFC and to chop possible forests). Of course, if the start is very forest poor and I have pigs as my only food resource, then AH first is a no-brainer. But then after either one of those techs I beeline to Archery immediately (assuming I didn't have copper/horses in my BFC).
 
Playing on Prince I've never needed to research archery, always get BW and AH first. That will normally get me axes or chariots before barbs start entering my lands. I have tried higher levels and started to find that with the acelerated apearence of barbs i needed archers to survive. After getting wiped out by the barbs a couple of times you start to learn!

Prince and lower you just dont need to bother.
 
You don't even need to bother on Monarch. Snaaty's suggestion is relevant only at the highest levels, where barbs supposedly hit you between researching BW and AH, or just after AH before you can hook it up. I say supposedly because I've not played that level of difficulty. However, if barbs are in your face while you're trying to hook up your strategic resource, then you obviously don't have your strat. resource units yet. Even if you're in the process of building them, the hammers/improvements/units lost could easily be worse than just teching archery to begin with. It's not like archers are useless, they affect your power rating and fog bust spectacularly in trees or on hills. An archer that's had enough barbs slammed into it will probably even have favorable odds against axes while camped on a hill or forest (and especially on a forested hill) due to promotions.

It also opens up HA, though I don't recommend researching horseback riding. You CAN trade for it, and unlike city raider 2/3 units 2 promotion horse archers are easy to attain. Mixing them into stacks can be useful.
 
I'll pipe in again with support of archery.

1) Archers are better city defenders that axes or chariots.
2) You are likely to tech hunting soon anyway for acces to spears.
3) Archery is needed for horse archers, crowwbows, longbows anyway.
4) Archers are cheap, you can build APPROXIMATELY 3 archers for every 2 axes. They are equal to chariots.
5) Protective leaders start with free archer bonus.
6) Warriors get killed by animals transporting settlers or workers. Archers rarely do.
7) Archers Guerilla bonus which help for border defenses.
8) Archery is mush cheaper than AH or BW.
9) Archers are resourceless, thus you get them alot faster than dragging a settler towards copper or horses.
10) Copper and horses cna be rare resources.

Understand, I do not always tech archery first, often I'll do AH if livestock is in the BFC or BW if I start with Mining and a food tech that I can use right away. AH for pastuers and BW for slavery/chopping ar every valid reasons to tech them early. But archery is the best defensive tech until masonry or Fuedalism. I just never understood everyone's reluctance to tech it early (I am talking within first 4 or 5 techs).
 
When my civ starts with hunting I tech Archery after BW.. If not I usually go BW -> AH and then Archery if I still don't have accessible strategic resources.
 
Another thing maybe not many of you consider. (Not many play Agg. AI at high levels it seems)
The aggressive AI's will rush you with metal units early if you only have chariots. Combining chariots and archers until you get Iron online may be your only choice. (Animal H-> IW takes too long, the AI gets a window in between then if you have a normal start)

For me it's straight up suicide to not have metal or horses connected by 1500 BC or so. (Marathon) Barbs tends not to be the major issue for me, AI's declaring early is the problem :p. (I've had Shaka paying a visit around 2100 BC... short game :()

And i just have to comment a couple of points from that nice list.
1) Archers are better city defenders that axes or chariots.
Depends a lot on your attacking army. High strength units make you lose more siege. For AI attacking, shock axes are more flexible defending since you can use them offensively too. (attacking from the city)
3) Archery is needed for horse archers, crowwbows, longbows anyway.
Archery can be traded for cheap by the time that is needed. (or researched in one turn anyway) This is for archery in general, not early archery which is the topic here.
6) Warriors get killed by animals transporting settlers or workers. Archers rarely do.
I have yet to see a high level game where someone does this. Fogbusting beforehand is far superior to this tactic. (fortifying a warrior with woodsman promos on a forested hill beats archers most of the time and you can see "hostiles" from far away)

9) Archers are resourceless, thus you get them alot faster than dragging a settler towards copper or horses.
They are also weaker units in offense, 2nd city copper is strong and almost as fast as teching archery. (unless you tech it way earlier than you need) Better waiting with archery until you are sure you don't have copper. (horses vs archery is not as straightforward)
 
Another thing maybe not many of you consider. (Not many play Agg. AI at high levels it seems)
The aggressive AI's will rush you with metal units early if you only have chariots. Combining chariots and archers until you get Iron online may be your only choice. (Animal H-> IW takes too long, the AI gets a window in between then if you have a normal start)

For me it's straight up suicide to not have metal or horses connected by 1500 BC or so. (Marathon) Barbs tends not to be the major issue for me, AI's declaring early is the problem :p. (I've had Shaka paying a visit around 2100 BC... short game :()

And i just have to comment a couple of points from that nice list.

Depends a lot on your attacking army. High strength units make you lose more siege. For AI attacking, shock axes are more flexible defending since you can use them offensively too. (attacking from the city)

Archery can be traded for cheap by the time that is needed. (or researched in one turn anyway) This is for archery in general, not early archery which is the topic here.

I have yet to see a high level game where someone does this. Fogbusting beforehand is far superior to this tactic. (fortifying a warrior with woodsman promos on a forested hill beats archers most of the time and you can see "hostiles" from far away)


They are also weaker units in offense, 2nd city copper is strong and almost as fast as teching archery. (unless you tech it way earlier than you need) Better waiting with archery until you are sure you don't have copper. (horses vs archery is not as straightforward)

Comments to your comments:D

Agressive AI is a different kettle of fish. They are much more dangerous early on, but much easier later because of the stupidity of their play. I view agressive AI as a benefit to the player.

Shock promoted axes are more flexible early on for agressive leaders as you are no likely to get combat I shock promoted axes that early. Agressive leaders with early access to copper are superior I agree.

Good point about trading for archery cheap.

Perhaps I am just careless or stupid but I have actually lost a few settlers early because escourting warrior get eaten. Having archers eliminate that hazard.

I disagree or perhaps miss the point about the copper being hooked up faster than teching archery. Unless you are lucky, your second city needs to be founded, you need to drag your worker to the new site, mine the copper, build a road connecting the mine to either or both cities. Also you need the wheel which you may or may not have. So teching teching hunting/archery is faster than mining/BW/wheel, plus the cost of a settler and hookup time.

I agree archers have little or no use in offense.
 
One more comment about archers, no need to worry about the rock/paper/scissors effect. Shock promoted axes are horrible at defense against chariots. You can add a spear which means you spent 140 hammers for an axe and spear compared to 50 hammers for an archer which defends against axes/spears/chariots. Archers are cheap universal defenders.
 
Agressive AI is a different kettle of fish. They are much more dangerous early on, but much easier later because of the stupidity of their play. I view agressive AI as a benefit to the player.

Really? I would like you to see the game where Charlemagne wiped out my army consisting of 100 tanks/infantry etc in one turn. (on a hill btw) I don't think you truly see the power of Agg. AI before you do emperor+ (below it's a huge advantage cause of lesser bonuses and slower research)
Perhaps I am just careless or stupid but I have actually lost a few settlers early because escourting warrior get eaten. Having archers eliminate that hazard.

Move it away, with woodsman promo (this should be easy to get if you make at least a couple of warriors early) it beats panthers and stuff easy anything harder you can move away from, if you settle early enough archers won't enter your borders so you can settle with them close. (just fogbust the next city spot properly so an archer/bear doesn't camp it when you need to settle there)
Plenty of people do this, so I don't know how you can mess this up? Maybe you don't fogbust enough in the start. (this also means less units running around total)

I disagree or perhaps miss the point about the copper being hooked up faster than teching archery. Unless you are lucky, your second city needs to be founded, you need to drag your worker to the new site, mine the copper, build a road connecting the mine to either or both cities. Also you need the wheel which you may or may not have. So teching teching hunting/archery is faster than mining/BW/wheel, plus the cost of a settler and hookup time.

I don't bother with roads back to the capital that soon, settle so you get it next to the city and use your initial worker to improve/road it then chop forests so the axes get out quick. If the copper site is close I can get axes as early as 2500-2600 BC. (again marathon speed) If you need archers earlier than that I want to know what settings you are playing :p

Point is, this works and you can spend those early beakers on better techs than hunting/archery (pottery and stuff comes to mind, or masonry for quick pyramids and stuff if you have stone) Thats why I need to be sure I won't get copper/horses before I invest in archery that early. (It will slow you down)

One more comment about archers, no need to worry about the rock/paper/scissors effect. Shock promoted axes are horrible at defense against chariots. You can add a spear which means you spent 140 hammers for an axe and spear compared to 50 hammers for an archer which defends against axes/spears/chariots. Archers are cheap universal defenders.

Again, attack from your city. Axe vs Chariot is quite favorable for you. Roads means you have as much mobility as them too.
 
But you are still teching mining/BW/wheel compared hunting/archery, plus time. That 3 techs vs 2 and BW is an expensive one, you can get nunting and archery for almost the same beaker cost. Of course alot depends on the leader and resources available in addition to neighbors.
 
But you are still teching mining/BW/wheel compared hunting/archery, plus time. That 3 techs vs 2 and BW is an expensive one, you can get nunting and archery for almost the same beaker cost. Of course alot depends on the leader and resources available in addition to neighbors.

Yeah, show me a game where you can skip BW and the wheel for a very long time :p, if you do it that way you can spend the precious early beakers you spent early on hunting/archery on other useful stuff. The difference is Mining/BW/The wheel are necessary techs, hunting/archery are optional ones, and thats why they are a "waste of beakers" unless really needed (no horse/copper), and are better spent on other things. BW gives slavery and chopping, it's one of the most important early game techs so you can't really compare it with archery.

My end point instead of dragging this out for a couple of pages :mischief: , is that archery isn't necessary in your start build and should only be researched if the map plays you that way. Be flexible and creative, don't get too set in your start tech path. (I've skipped BW for a long time for archery/masonry if I wanted to snag super early wonders, there are uses but it's not universally needed)
 
I'll post once more as I do not want to go on for pages. I am not saying BW is not important, nor that is should be ignored. What I am saying is archery, to me, is a tech to get within the first 4 and that archers are much more useful than alot of posters here concede. That is all.

Sometimes BW can be teched ahead of archery, sometimes after. But to me, you cannot go wrong with archery earlier than later. You can miss with copper though.
 
Playing BtS on Emperor with barbs on, I tend to go archery quite early now. Copper seems rarer in BtS. I normally go bronze first though if I start with mining or animal husbandry if there are livestock around.

I even beat a barb uprising (4 spears) in my last (well first BtS emperor win) game with archers early on, I would have been toast with chariots and warriors, phew.

I do use warriors to fogbust for the settlers though. Occasionally I take a risk with workers but settlers are too valuable. Once I get archery I use archers instead, they garrison the city when it is built.
 
I think we can agree that Bronze Working has a bigger potential payoff. Your reward for "hitting the jackpot" with copper can be huge - if it's in your capital's BFC or if you can get it easily with your first expansion. I think we're also more likely to highlight those "jackpot" memories.

Correctly choosing (researching at the ideal time) Archery means you averted a potential disaster - you may never "see" the effect. You never really get lucky with it. With Copper, it may let you take an enemy capital.

Granted, I'm a monarch level player. I don't really run into these issues, but I have started playing a lot of multiplayer the last few months and I rarely wait to pick up archery later.
It's really generalize paths and priorities in Civ. Difficulty levels, starting techs, leader straits, map type, starting location/available resources all influence how you develop your strategy.

That said, researching archery "within the first 4 techs" on Immortal and above seems quite reasonable to me. The stock wisdom is that you simply don't chase religions at that level, so that knocks out one whole branch of the tree. What else are you going to go after?

Food techs: Fishing, Agriculture, AH (2nd tier)
Mining->Bronzeworking
Wheel - not until you have a resource to hook up and never the first thing you have a worker do.
Hunting - generally commerce.

Those are your choices. I doubt anyone is going to grab Sailing before Archery if they don't have Copper, the same way you don't need Pottery ASAP because your workers usually have resources to improve before you start building cottages.

In that light, getting Archery within the first four techs seems entirely reasonable.
Worst case scenario you don't have the right food tech (e.g. pigs and you have fishing and wheel). In that situation you could still research Mining-BW-Hunting-AH. Archery would then be #5. I guess some people are saying that's a little late, and would advocate Hunting-AH-Archery or Hunting-Archery-AH.
 
I agree with a few points above:

If you tech bronze working or animal husbandry and lack the needed resource (copper/horse), then you basically must go archery next (or fortify your city with at least 2 warriors, probably 3 if you want to be safe-- expect resources to be pillaged).

Also, axemen/chariots require your second city to be settled with copper/horses in the city's first cultural ring. This decreases the chance to beat the AI to better city sites close to their borders, does it not? Copper or horses can be grabbed relatively easy at a later time (unless neither are in your vicinity). Archers also enable you to settle a copper/horse city in a better location that doesn't require it to be in the first cultural ring. Unless you are cultural or constructed stonehenge after your first settler, you will probably be overrun by barbarians before you can get a monument out and hook up the resource.

But I agree that you probably should tech bronze working or animal husbandry first (unless maybe you start with hunting?) and hook up the necessary resource given it is close by and it is still relatively early. This requires the wheel-- you'll need the wheel later, so it is not out of your way to tech it, but I believe some will go through a game never teching archery. Deity games advance so fast that rifles are used around 1000 AD. Correct me if I'm wrong here.

I just find that, generally, if I have a run of bad luck and my exploration goes bad, and I don't find copper or horses (but find one later and try to hook it up), the barbarians will attack before you can make use of the resource.

A comment by Unconquered Sun to Snaaty prompted me to start the thread: I believe he said that it's rare for most to use archers, and I think Snaaty responded by saying he would only tech AH/BW for the resource if he suspected it to be in his capital. I may have misquoted them, but nevertheless, I would certainly love to hear opinions from both of them. :)
 
If you can get all the way to Feudalism without building Archers, your defense forces will be a lot more cost-efficient if you start them out as Longbowmen.

You can upgrade Archers to Longbowmen, but it costs money to do so.

But Archers still have their place, in the right situation.
 
Top Bottom