Immortal difficulty a bit too...Immortal

kjades · Aug 12, 2015

Hi guyz.
I need some of your wisdom, as I'm stuck at Immortal difficulty. Again.
Even if I try to go for the easiest victory type (science, imho), and I manage to fill the initial tech gap, one of the AIs always turns into an unsatiable monster swallowing cities and other AI civs, so that my tech production can't in any possible way keep the pace.

Last map setups:
My Civ: Babylon
Immortal
Large map
9 Civs
Last match I went for Babylon (pretty amazing for science victories, I thought). Before giving up, depressed and frustrated (like, turn 460), I had 6 cities up and running and growing like hell.
I managed to pump out some pretty good science output (around 700 - 800), thanks also to a countless number of great scientists (I'm not kidding, at turn 460 I had spawned around 13 - 14 GS thanks to policies-buildings-Civ bonuses).
Despite this, Sweden was way ahead in the scientific rush as it had been warmongering and conquering cities for quite some time.
The only possible solution (the only one I can find) lies in my always leading very peaceful matches.
I try to get AIs fight each other to slow them all down, but I mainly mind my own business, especially because with the Immortal AI buffs I can't even nearly produce as many military forces as I'd need to attack anyone in the early game.

So, my question is, is my being a dumb peacemonger the real problem here? Or is there any other solution? Like, is it possible to win on higher difficulties without resorting to war?

Or maybe, settling new cities is a top priority and cannot be delayed to mid/late game?

Thanks everyone

Greggy08 · Aug 12, 2015

The first game i won immortal was with babilon too... I'd say that 6 cities are a bit too many i had just 2 but only because persia settled everywhere so i think 3 is the right number. If the capital is near a mountain much better it's a 50% more science
Have internal route asap go writing then rush hanging gardens and after that immediatly to education.... Plant an academy in your national college city(capital) with every sciencist till modern era then use for research keep your city growing and with a good army for def and pay everyone to declare war each other you should win much before turn 460 and with 3 very very big city like 30+

HughFran · Aug 12, 2015

Greggy08 said:
Plant an academy in your national college city(capital) with every sciencist till modern era then use for research keep your city

Forgive my ignorance, but how you you put an academy in your National College? Do you mean, put a specialist in the slot?

johnny_rudeboy · Aug 12, 2015

HughFran said:
Forgive my ignorance, but how you you put an academy in your National College? Do you mean, put a specialist in the slot?

He means, plant the GS near the capital so that you get the NC bonus on the academy.

beetle · Aug 12, 2015

kjades said:
Before giving up, depressed and frustrated (like, turn 460), I had 6 cities up and running and growing like hell.

Was this standard pace? You really cannot expect an Immortal AI not to win by turn 400.

I managed to pump out some pretty good science output (around 700 - 800)

For late game SV, those numbers are actually on the low side, I think.

So, my question is, is my being a dumb peacemonger the real problem here? Or is there any other solution? Like, is it possible to win on higher difficulties without resorting to war?

You can definitely win on Immortal/Deity without making a DoW or taking any cities.

Or maybe, settling new cities is a top priority and cannot be delayed to mid/late game?

Cities founded after around turn 150 add considerably to your finish time. You must not be paying attention to National Wonders either.

wayneb64 · Aug 12, 2015

I would advise reading the Tradition guide and going for the classic 3-4 city model. Also try a small map to begin with, it should be easier. I play quick, so my turn numbers are not comparable, but by 'end' game my science is around 1000 and the year is around the 1900s.

I normally play continents and often take over my continent or at least one neighbor. Having half the city states as allies and the left three policies in Patronage adds a nice science boost. Your cap should be 30-40+ by that time.

Red Menace · Aug 12, 2015

is Tradition Rationalism really the only way to win Immortal & Deity? science is the most boring victory IMO next to diplomatic Victory
I win Emperor consistently and it has become too easy but i didnt move up

my favorite strategy is Honor Commerce autocracy - or Liberty Exploration autocracy also patronage thrown in sometimes depending on how much culture im generating

BruinBound · Aug 12, 2015

kjades said:
Hi guyz.
I need some of your wisdom, as I'm stuck at Immortal difficulty. Again.
Even if I try to go for the easiest victory type (science, imho), and I manage to fill the initial tech gap, one of the AIs always turns into an unsatiable monster swallowing cities and other AI civs, so that my tech production can't in any possible way keep the pace.

Last map setups:
My Civ: Babylon
Immortal
Large map
9 Civs
Last match I went for Babylon (pretty amazing for science victories, I thought). Before giving up, depressed and frustrated (like, turn 460), I had 6 cities up and running and growing like hell.
I managed to pump out some pretty good science output (around 700 - 800), thanks also to a countless number of great scientists (I'm not kidding, at turn 460 I had spawned around 13 - 14 GS thanks to policies-buildings-Civ bonuses).
Despite this, Sweden was way ahead in the scientific rush as it had been warmongering and conquering cities for quite some time.
The only possible solution (the only one I can find) lies in my always leading very peaceful matches.
I try to get AIs fight each other to slow them all down, but I mainly mind my own business, especially because with the Immortal AI buffs I can't even nearly produce as many military forces as I'd need to attack anyone in the early game.

So, my question is, is my being a dumb peacemonger the real problem here? Or is there any other solution? Like, is it possible to win on higher difficulties without resorting to war?

Or maybe, settling new cities is a top priority and cannot be delayed to mid/late game?

Thanks everyone

Might need a save to diagnose further..

You say your cities are growing like crazy? How big were they at turn 250? Or for that matter, how big are they now at 460?

What did you do with your Great Scientists? Academies or bulb? If you bulbed, when?

When did you finish your NC and with how many cities at that time? When did you finish education?

Which policies and which order?

How many workers do you have for those 6 cities? How many workers did you already have when you built the NC?

joncnunn · Aug 12, 2015

6 self found cities as Babylon is at least 2 and sometimes even 3 too many.

As Babylon the key is research Pottery and Writing as your first two techs no matter what and found an academy on a useful tile that only costs 1 food (post-Civil service - pre-Fertilizer).

Then early (small) library. National College ASAP which means 2 or 3 city NC. Found the remaining 1 or 2 cities to get up to a total of 4 self built cities post NC.

If you want any more cities, let the AI found them and conquer them after the AI has invested enough in getting them big enough and adding buildings that they'd be worthwhile keeping post conquest even with the massive population and building loses.

joncnunn · Aug 12, 2015

Red Menace said:
is Tradition Rationalism really the only way to win Immortal & Deity? science is the most boring victory IMO next to diplomatic Victory
I win Emperor consistently and it has become too easy but i didnt move up

my favorite strategy is Honor Commerce autocracy - or Liberty Exploration autocracy also patronage thrown in sometimes depending on how much culture im generating

Players on huge maps choose Liberty Rationalism. But they are much less likely to pick Babylon. Babylon's UA (ultra early Great Scientist that turns into an academy worked by the capital) does NOT scale when you increase number of cities self founded.

The Rationalism part is optimum play for almost all victory conditions*. Of you are skilled enough player to win at Deity consistently with Rationalism, you can win at Immortal without it, but your victory time will be slower compared to if you had gone Rationalism.

* Edge cases:
1. Duel size map. Optimum play here results in victory well before you reach the era in which its possible to take Rationalism policies. This goes double if playing the Huns. Babylon isn't a popular civ to choose for this as a more direct offensive UU is usually desired.

2. Sacred Sites gambit. The key in this gambit is to win via culture before you fall so far behind in techs that an AI catches up in their culture defense. Babylon isn't a popular choice for this gambit; here a civ with a culture bonus is preferred such as Brazil.

reddishrecue · Aug 12, 2015

joncnunn said:
The Rationalism part is optimum play for almost all victory conditions*. Of you are skilled enough player to win at Deity consistently with Rationalism, you can win at Immortal without it, but your victory time will be slower compared to if you had gone Rationalism.

You probably can do better at deity with rationalism. Making science yourself is a lot better than getting your spies out there and risking their murder.

Red Menace · Aug 12, 2015

Players on huge maps choose Liberty Rationalism. But they are much less likely to pick Babylon. Babylon's UA (ultra early Great Scientist that turns into an academy worked by the capital) does NOT scale when you increase number of cities self founded.

i dont play Babylon most of the time but i do use liberty alot although Honor sometimes works better

The Rationalism part is optimum play for almost all victory conditions

i tend to get high science yield per turn[the highest i got was as Denmark in my first emperor game it was 2800 per turn] but i do get above 2000 science most games i get rationalism usually in the modern era to fast track victory

without it my average science is around 1200 to 1800 and most games end around turn 300-330 i almost never go science victory instead domination or diplomatic [while im destroying everyone]

for most of the game i play what is considered sub-optimal [lots of cities delayed NC early aggression no tradition most of the time late rationalism Autocracy] things like that

poom3619 · Aug 13, 2015

You know, I would recommend watching Deity player's Lets Play. You might learn tons of thing.

Sclb · Aug 13, 2015

800 bpt at turn 400 is extremely low for 6 cities. I get that much before 200 if you had labs and even without labs you should win it before then if going for CV or DV.
I would suggest the OP to study how to play standard 3-4 tradition SV with sub 330 win before trying other stuff that isn't so optimal. The strategy is applicable to deity too and will usually get a faster win on deity because of better RA and better tech to steal on deity.

without it my average science is around 1200 to 1800 and most games end around turn 300-330 i almost never go science victory instead domination or diplomatic [while im destroying everyone]

Doing late game Dom V slows science a lot and at that point, you might as well sell all your science building for more gold once you reached your key military tech for dom, for example modern armor. If you intend on diplo victory, all the tech you need to get quick is globalisation while trying to reach info era just before a WC vote. I myself still prefers a SV to Diplo V since it's so cheesy. Peaceful CV is the most fun.

Red Menace · Aug 13, 2015

Doing late game Dom V slows science a lot and at that point, you might as well sell all your science building for more gold once you reached your key military tech for dom, for example modern armor.

it does slow down science but i sell the crap cities to AI's im friends with it helps to keep things going in the 5 turns per tech range until the very last techs
i dont usually care to sell my buildings because i run over 400gpt and i still like to keep going to get X-COMs and GDR [because they're awesome] and most of the time i complete my objective social policy trees and enter rationalism thanks to worlds fair. no point in wasting good policies on a wonder bonus i dont even need

kjades · Aug 13, 2015

Hello again, thx for all the help

@Greggy08

I'd say that 6 cities are a bit too many i had just 2 but only because persia settled everywhere so i think 3 is the right number

@beetle

Cities founded after around turn 150 add considerably to your finish time

@joncnunn

6 self found cities as Babylon is at least 2 and sometimes even 3 too many.

Sorry, I'm evidently missing a point here...isn't it like, the more cities the better? I understand from a culture point of view I should avoid settling too masny cities (as the more cities you got, the higher the treshold to get new policies), but isn't just plainly better to have more cities, even if just at 8 - 9 population? Sorry for the noobish question...

@beetle

You must not be paying attention to National Wonders either.

Why?

@BruinBound

How big were they at turn 250? Or for that matter, how big are they now at 460?

I meant they were spawning a new citizen every, let's say, 10 rounds in the late game...capital was around 22 I think (sorry, erased the game, can't be more precise).

What did you do with your Great Scientists? Academies or bulb? If you bulbed, when?

I only went for Academies, had around 10 built and runnin', never bulbed any GS (it was around Modern Era, so I didn't see the point to bulb them)

When did you finish your NC and with how many cities at that time? When did you finish education?

NC around turn 200, 3 cities, education sorta beelined after I got colosseums for happiness

Which policies and which order?

Usually I go full tradition + exploration opener and 1 policy + as far as I can into rationalism before I get an ideology

How many workers do you have for those 6 cities?

I managed to keep going with one single worker per city, never had a problem like citizens working unimproved tiles

As Babylon the key is research Pottery and Writing as your first two techs no matter what and found an academy

Yeah, exactly my standard tactic to make a good use of the very early GS

@Red Menace

but i do get above 2000 science most games

Very, VERY silly question...how do u manage?

No, seriously...those digits are for me sort of impossible...but I have to say, I rarely reach the very late game to see how much I get in the end, as I get frustrated sooner, as soon as I notice the AI is just choking on science and way, way ahead of me...

@poom3619

You know, I would recommend watching Deity player's Lets Play. You might learn tons of thing.

I have recently been following a couple of pro players (I suppose) on YouTube and their Deity Let's Play...Quill18 Deity Netherlands and Marbozir Deity Mayans...wrong choice maybe?

Anyway, I might have found my recursive mistake, but stop me if I'm wrong...
I usually like playing on, let's say, large maps (not standard ones), but usually I take off one AI from the standard AI number for large maps (basically, if large goes with 10 AIs I play with 9)...this might lead the AI to have too much of free space to conquer and settle, so that any warmongering empire is, in the end, unreachable...is it possible that all my problems are due to this?

Thanks again guyz

BruinBound · Aug 13, 2015

kjades said:
I meant they were spawning a new citizen every, let's say, 10 rounds in the late game...capital was around 22 I think (sorry, erased the game, can't be more precise).

This was standard speed right? Every 10 turns isn't really that good, the size 22 capital is actually quite small for a game that went that long. You should probably want your capital at least 35+ in the late game and your other cities at least size 15. The high population is how you get the large science output, as science comes directly from your pop.

I only went for Academies, had around 10 built and runnin', never bulbed any GS (it was around Modern Era, so I didn't see the point to bulb them)

The late game is exactly when you want to bulb them. Typically, you can place the first one or two GS as academies and still have it be optimal or at least comparable. But all the scientists after the first two I would recommend saving until the late game. Once you have research labs up, bulb them all and blast through the late game tech-tree. Otherwise it becomes a real grind. Keep in mind the bulb amount is calculated from your last 8 turns of science, so go science focus after the labs then bulb to maximize.

NC around turn 200, 3 cities, education sorta beelined after I got colosseums for happiness

Turn 200 is incredibly late. For 3 cities, you probably don't want the NC later than turn 90. There is a lot said on these forums about how to get an early NC, but at the very least try to get a library as one of your first 2 buildings in your second and third cities. That should allow you to build the NC sooner.

Usually I go full tradition + exploration opener and 1 policy + as far as I can into rationalism before I get an ideology

Exploration seems a bit odd, but tradition and rationalism is usually the best path. Try to get to renaissance era and thus open rationalism as soon as possible. Secularism (extra science from specialists) is the most powerful policy in the game. You want it quickly.

I managed to keep going with one single worker per city, never had a problem like citizens working unimproved tiles

One per city is acceptable, though if you focus on growing faster you may need one or two more. Very good that you weren't forced to work unimproved tiles.

I have recently been following a couple of pro players (I suppose) on YouTube and their Deity Let's Play...Quill18 Deity Netherlands and Marbozir Deity Mayans...wrong choice maybe?

Let's Plays are a fantastic way to learn. I personally learned from Marbozir also when I first began playing deity, he is obviously the most entertaining and will steer you in the right general direction to at least be competitive on higher difficulties.

Anyway, I might have found my recursive mistake, but stop me if I'm wrong...
I usually like playing on, let's say, large maps (not standard ones), but usually I take off one AI from the standard AI number for large maps (basically, if large goes with 10 AIs I play with 9)...this might lead the AI to have too much of a free space to conquer and settle, so that any warmongering empire is, in the end, unreachable...is it possible that all my problems are due to this?

It could be a factor, but you should be winning by science long before the AI has a chance, even if one is prone to becoming a runaway.

Kriogen · Aug 13, 2015

kjades said:
Sorry, I'm evidently missing a point here...isn't it like, the more cities the better? I understand from a culture point of view I should avoid settling too masny cities (as the more cities you got, the higher the treshold to get new policies), but isn't just plainly better to have more cities, even if just at 8 - 9 population? Sorry for the noobish question...

Quality over quantity.

What is for culture is also for science. Cost goes up with more cities you have. More is not better.

3-4 cities, but make those super ultra big. You don't wont size 22 city (even worse if its your capitol). You want size 44. Double of what you have. A couple of megacities is better then large number of small vilage in the middle of nowhere.

Food is the key for science. Food is population that is science. Its why you research Pottery very early. For Granary, not for Shrine. Its why you want costal start. So you can send food cargo ships and not caravans (that are weaker then ships).

kjades · Aug 13, 2015

@BruinBond

thx bunch for all the comments, but I forgot to add in the description, I play at epic speed, not standard. So, maybe there's something in my descriptions of my tactic that is not THAT bad?

like...is epic speed immortal turn 200 National College acceptable, for instance?

@Kriogen
@BruinBound

thx again for the explanation, couldn't really figure out myself that culture and science work a bit in the same way, from the policy and techs cost-per-city perspective...

Greggy08 · Aug 13, 2015

That's all another thing so really i don't know beacuse i never played on epic and i wanna try but i'm pretty sure that anyway your real problem is the quantity and the size of your cities... I think 3/4 and every over 30 citizens by the end.... Keep sciencists specialist filled and plant every academy in the capital till industrial/modern era...
Just to know... Which ideology did you take?

Immortal difficulty a bit too...Immortal

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