-->
However please note something that comes "in-between-the-lines" when reading the books:
-wolf-brother is an "old talent", like "dreamer", or "understanding angreal"
--> old talents comes from the "old blood".
-there are few "old talents" in Rand-time, (save dreamer for the aiels) but more and more are appearing.
-it can be understood from the books that during the FY (or maybe only the encroaching blight era) there have been no (or almost none) old-blood talents known to the Aes-Sedai.
-it can also be understood that "old talent / old blood" refers to... the time of Manetheren or a bit before.. but not "old as in age-of-legend".
so one can understand from the books that "old-talents" where more frequent after the breaking... and even up to 1500 years after the breaking (or maybe 200 years) than in Rand-time.
(for this I'm just pointing a fact/deduction... I have no idea how to implement that in-game... it is as difficult to put in play in a civ-game as the Aes-Sedai / chanelers of the after breaking knowing more, and being more powerful than the Aes-Sedai of Hawking's time, themselves more knowledgeable / powerful than the one in Rand-time).
I should note that we don't necessarily know whether wolfbrothers and dreamers and other Talents were common during the AoL. They certainly might have been. But yes, they were apparently more common in the first parts of the third age than in the later parts of the NE (you said FY but I think you mean NE).
And yes, I have mentioned before how in fact it may be fair to deduce that the Aes Sedai in the AB period were actually *stronger* than those in the "modern" times - this is definitely a difficult thing to put into the game, though.
So, in order to assess the low numbers :
what about, instead of having "wolfbrother GP" (which are always of the light if they keep acquaintance with wolves... other-wise they become like "Slayer", but this should be very rare... ideally a wolf-brogther GP will leave you if you chose shadow), you could only have "old-blood" GP, Old blood allowing to upgrade (by decision or randomness) to one of the old talents: Dreamer (Egwene, Aiels) / Wolfbrother / Power-smith (Neal) / Angreal-user (Aviendha) / Prophet (forgot the names) / Visionnary (Min)... etc
Maybe Maker of Angreal (Elayne) is only a tech.
OK, I *think* I understand you correctly. You're saying, instead of having all of these as separate GP - each with their own "charging up meter" or whatever its called - we simply have one (Great Talent or something) that would pump out any one of these somewhat weirder, more esoteric GP-types.
I think I could get behind that, but I'd want to limit it to the more "weird" GPs - Viewers, Sniffers, Wolfbrothers, etc. Not "Great Scholars" and "Great Gleemen" and whatnot. It would give us an excuse to throw in some really weird ones (whatever slayer is, for example).
I'm not sure how we'd go about determining which type you'd get - could definitely be random, but could also be subtly effected by other factors (your Alignment, social policies, etc.).
Curious what S3rg things on this one!
Maybe those "old-blood"-GP transform your GP in another class: Dreamer : Chaneler or Leader / Angreal-user: Chaneler / Wolfbrother : warrior or capitain or leader / Powersmith : chaneler / Visionnary : Scientist or chaneler or bard
...Etc
Maybe, alternatively, Old-blood is a promotion that can appear randomly, on your GP, depending on the type of GP and the light-ness of your side, or the culture, or the faith (as it is currently linked to lineage)...or whatever.
Maybe that promotion can be allowed by specific techs / policies ?
This is definitely interesting - a sort of "promotion" for existing GP. Might be a bit too complex, though? Might be best to let most of the GPs just be "regular" GPs.
create a serie of new "tech-tree/policies/whatever"
eg: those old-blood GP enable to research some specifics techs in an "old-blood tech tree" that can't be researched by science/culture but only by using these guys ? : 100 -tech-point ; uses 100 faith : can be used only once per level of caster. (or any other mean to do that : unique policy tree ??)
this tree: contains (for example)
I'm sure an interesting tree could be made, each tech/policy enabling promotions or effects, either only to the units/GP having the specific old-blood promotion, or sometimes, boost for the whole civ : prophecies allow "create prophecy" which enable more "faith" or more chances of "identifying the true Dragon".
Lots of cool flavorful stuff in there! - the wolf speak, interpreting prophcy, etc. That said... I do think it's a bit "too much" - a lot going on just to support a cool GP type. I'm curious what Fearless Leader thinks, but I think we might simply be better off bringing those things in as flavor elsewhere.
--> think of the "visions" of Aviendha when she went to Ruidean (last 3rd of book 13) : 2-3-4 generations after the LB, the seanchans, which overcame Andor and its guns, still fought against aiels with raken and spears/swords... the use of fire arms was not really wide-spread even at that time. Further, firearms and motorised vehicle became wide-spread only 2-5 generations later (1st and second dreams of Aviendha). However the great-daughter of Aviendha felt that they were not really adapting to "trains and cannons".. roughly.
so 4th age tech should be a bit of steam-punkish... or a mix of renaissance (guns AND sword/pikes) and early industrial era : trains , + a bit of one power
Yeah, you're probably right. Musketman and stuff like that might be ok. Maybe not full-on railroad, but something like that. These units would be the "Giant Death Robots" of our game - which, incidentally, I've never actually built.
--> make it that breaking seals is really bad for light civs...
and / or that the light civ can only break seals after the dragon peace, and after something else: remember most of the light civs (even Egwen Elayne and the Aiels, which should all be friend of Rand) were opposed to this until he forced them to accept.
--> maybe only the dragon reborn can do it ?
--> maybe breaking the seals is a geometric function of badness ? (1seal : 10 trollocs, 2nd seals : 20 new trollocs +2 Myrdhal, 3rd seal : 30 new trollocs 3 myrdhal, 1 forsaken....Etc)
--> maybe you can break seals before the actual battle of the LB itself (books 1-13 of the WoT) ... but breaking the second-to last seal starts the actual battle of the LB (like if the battle of book 14 happend in book 3... when noboby was prepared).
and breaking the last seal: shadow civs get super mydrhal, breaker of last seal (if shadow civ) get a "champion/hero": Avatar of the DO itself : (or trak'handar opens-up to a super powerful unit that starts strong-ish, and is held and gets stronger and stronger over 10 turns: you have 10 turns to kill it with One power / Dragon reborn ...Etc
Well, I suppose a few things might be worth clarifying here:
- according to "plan", the breaking of light seals IS pretty bad (short term) for the Light (more shadowspawn). But, still, they do ultimately want to break them in order to secure victory, so I don't see the Shadow really deeming it worth spending resources on stealing the seals and such - you know eventually the light will break them.
- I think, technically, the Dragon Peace will start when the LB starts, so this is somewhat unrelated to that.
If I'm not quite addressing your point, I'm afraid I may not totally understand it.
Definitely curious what S3rgeus wants to do here.
about Dragon and False Dragons
One of the crucial points of the whole WoT series is the following:
- realising the prophecies (Aiels / taking Tear / Sea-folks / Seanchans / Action of the Borderlanders / Action of Shadow).
This enables 1) to differentiate the True Dragon from False Dragons
. 2) to know what Rand has to do (Min uses it for determining that the seals has to be broken, and Rand makes use of the prophecies at all times)
You're certainly right that the WoT narrative (in the books) is somewhat consumed by the fulfilling of prophesies - this certainly gives us an idea of what kinds of things Rand could be doing pre-LB. There's a lot to be said on this, which I'll say below.
Further, False Dragons only have an interest if they "blur" the presence of the true Dragon: ie the appearance of the true Dragon is not known until prophecies are validated, and since the FY, every False Dragon is potentially the True Dragon: people have no mean to know.. that's why there are so often Dragon-sworn armies.
OK, I will take issue that False Dragons, IMO, would be cool even if you know they're False Dragons. Basically they're cool powerful Male Channelers to fight, which you wouldn't get to do most of the game.
Also, recall that in-universe, people usually assume ALL dragons are False Dragons (even Rand, for the first books) - so I'm not sure they really "blur" the True Dragon that much.
IMO, making prophecies, and checking the validity of prophecies should thus have a crucial impact on the game.
For example : after the FY era : every now and then "Dragons" rise
. You can't know if those are false Dragons or true dragons
Their apparition is more and more frequent as game advances. ("no-city" faction that appears/disappear when the Dragon is killed/subdued: War-to-all, propose "vassalization" to civs / make random actions)
Only Red Ajahs (and maybe damane?) can deal with it.
You can "join the Dragon" faction. The Dragon leaves you alone, but you give him production and some of your units become dragon sworn
but after a time you get "dragon bonus"
and more so if you "joined the Dragon" earlier than other civs.. and earlier than his officialisation as "the true dragon".
However, if the Dragon is found to be a "false Dragon", and you had allied : you lose some culture / faith, you get some temporary unhappiness. If you opposed him : you gain happiness / culture.
If you have prophecies: you can differentiate more easily the true dragon from the false: either enabling to hunt him earlier, or allowing to join his side earlier, or
Knowing "the true dragon" earlier than other civs might allow you to play with the true dragon even before the LB
OK. I should say first that I think I mostly follow you, but some things I may not have understood 100%.
I think the idea of the False Dragons maybe being "real" - and the uncertainty of when "Rand" will pop up - is a really compelling and cool thing. Definitely would feel very in-universe. And tying this in to specific prophesies would be cool too - especially since we'd be using Prophesies as GW (we could simply flavorfully name them according to the kinds of things that have happened/will happen in the game).
The diplo aspects - declaring for a dragon and them turning out to be false, etc. - is also quite cool (though I'm not sure any nations really ever got behind the "Dragons" before Rand...
That said, I can really imagine this being a big problem in terms of the game flow, balance, AI, pace, etc.... Consider the fact that an unpredictable Dragon Birth means an unpredictable start date/era for the Last Battle, which, as we've learned, is already a bit of a balancing Monster.
So, honestly, I'm highly doubtful that we could (or even should) implement something like this. That said, maybe there are elements of it that we could salvage and merge with what we do have in a way that isn't too complex:
1) Make the False Dragons have some extra (diplo?) element.
2) Rand's pre-LB actions being related to prophesies (even prophesies creates by players as GWs
I just can't see the possibility that any of the Dragons could be True or False being anything but super complicated and a bit of a balancing nightmare, despite its coolness... Neat idea, but it would maybe "Take over the game" a bit too much. More thoughts?
Further, having prophecies could allow more control on the dragon: either more control-time
(as you know where he is); or more actions, that he can only make when you control him.
Maybe prophecies can also influence interactions with other taver'n / GP. (like the prophecy of shadow allowed them to know where Perrin would be and the importance of Perrin/Mat to the final battle when the light side only focused on Rand.)
As stated in a previous post (I think a response to Illianor), I really like the *idea* of the prophesies "mattering" But, I think that having GWs have actual in-game use is a bit of a can of worms that creates a lot of questions and issues. Might be biting off more than we can chew.
Blight: as much as it is a BAD thing, to make their be some incentive, could killing shadowspawn, or clearing out their camps grant faith? So although you lands will be worse and you will need more military units, you can strengthen your faith by it?
Yes. I proposed this exact thing in my post the other day. Waiting to see what S3rgeus thinks of it.
Thrakan'dar: if this is in from the beginning perhaps it can have strong shadowspawn units that patrol the area around it and make it hard to hem in? Channellers, dark hounds etc. or can peridically send out raids of trollocs etc to push cities within a certain radius back? Or be harder to push the blight aroun it back and so make any nearby cities unproductive?
I think Thakan'dar probably shouldn't "do" much in the early parts of the game, but should be essentially impenetrable. Sure, stuff might spawn around it, but those things could also just be spawning on random Blight tiles.
Obviously, players WILL try to go find it. Should we make going to say "hi" to Shayol Ghul be essentially a death sentence for a unit pre-LB, or is there some viable reason to do so?[/QUOTE]
as an add-on:
the "anthology on channeling" promised by counterpoint could do well to come here.
especially as we don't know what we want to do with faith.
Yeah, yeah! Please be patient guys. I'm about half done with it - word count just showed me 3000 words, lol. Hopefully will finish it soon. Hard with a full time job - S3rgeus, you don't pay us enough!
Faith *may* play a role in Channeling. I've outlined (in my Treatise) how this might work, but it's only going to play a role in Channeling if we decide to adopt that particular set of concept.s
1)faith is linked to light/shadow
2)however belief is linked to lineage
3)being near blight/killing shadowspawn could help gain faith... but what is the point to gain faith ? (especially if you go toward shadow?)
I think you might be a little mixed up here. Do you mean Customs when you say Belief (we renamed Beliefs Customs)?
1)Faith is only "linked" to light/shadow in that Light/shadow affects your civ's ability to generate faith.
2) I'm not sure Customs (beliefs) are particularly linked to Lineage. Lineage is just our version of Pantheon. Is Tithe (civ5) "linked" to Messenger of the Gods (a pantheon)? I don't know. Not really. They both concern themselves with my religion, but that's abut it.
3) Well, what's the point of Faith in base CiV? The point for us would be exactly the same. In addition though, we may elect to have some units that can be purchased or something.
Also, recall that religion and faith in CiV seem to have diminished importance int he final parts of the game - they're really just a tool to aid in other goals - and since a civ will only really "join shadow" at the very end, we're talking about only a minor piece of the overall game.
1) and 2) do not mingle well together.
channeling could give /use faith... but not with the premise 1) and 2)
so how do channeling / chanelers work ?
I don't quite get you logically, here. Why don't 1 and 2 work well together? Lineage doesn't really have any bearing on any of this. Your Lineage is just something you choose that sits around and gives you bonuses throughout the game.
IMO there could be a re-working on the 4 effects of WoT world:
-tavern / pattern / destiny / prophecies
-old blood / lineages
-channeling
-light vs shadow.
especially as faith/religions mechanics could be used easily for any of those effects. (but not in the "24 founder belief - 24 follower belief" structure).
OK, I think I mostly get you here. Truthfully, we kind of picked the whole Lineage=Pantheon thing to death, so I'd just as soon keep that the way it is.
Channeling is still in the works, of course, and I dont think Faith needs to be an integral system - a high-faith civ automatically becoming high-military (because of all the channelers they can build) might be problematic. as far as light vs shadow, I think we've already done due diligence in trying to figure out ways to incorporate it.
As for the Pattern, etc., honestly, this has been something I've thought on a lot with no obvious ideas. Is there a way to incorporate the Pattern into this game? So far, the only ways it has come up so far:
1) The brief idea that Balefire, in hurting the pattern, could create some weird issues (similar to radiation)
2) Also briefly mentioned, the notion that one game of WoTCiV could serve as the "2nd Age" for a later game of WoTCiV - with the new map being a reinterpretation of that same map. A cool but very impractical idea.
3) Ta'veren bonuses from Rand
4) A Great Ta'veren GP detailed in one of my first posts.
Other than that, I'm not sure.
Also, side comment that bugged me in my recent re-read of the WoT. Guys, how do they know about the Pattern? It appears to be something they've *always* known. But, seriously, how would they ever figure out that "this age will return again?" Is it just "religious" belief or do they have some kind of proof that Time is a Wheel and there is an Age Lace that guides the world? They seem to actually trust this to be *true*, as if they've done some empirical analysis and figured out that people are reborn and that many Ages have come and gone and will come again.
Just seems weird to me.
especially as faith does not exist in WoT...
I don't quite understand what you mean. I'm sure people in WoT have Faith. Galad has faith in the Way of the Light. Aviendha has Faith in Ji'e'toh. Tam al'Thor appears to have Faith in his son. Nyneave has Faith in pulling her braid.
(the one that looks more as a faith is "prophecy" that exist about the Rand:
-will he lead as the Dragon / be first chief among the chiefs as Carac'an / make a banter with Sea-Folk / submit to the empress / join the shadow / be the messia leading the armies against the shadow (Shara) / die before liberating the DO / will the Dragon re-kill the world ? / is he to be feared ? to be controled ? to be joined ? to be followed ? / will he liberate and destroy the people (aiels) /
I think we already liked the idea of Prophesies being one of the GWs.
Question, though: what's wrong with the Path of the Light system we've already proposed on previous pages(with a Lineage (pantheon), a Path (Religion), each with a set of Customs (beliefs))? It seems good to me, so I don't see the need to scrap it.