R&T C P2: Payoff

What Do We Want Our Payoff To Be?


  • Total voters
    36
  • Poll closed .

Stuck_as_a_Mac

Aptenodytes forsteri
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This poll is plain and simple: What do we want to gain from Philosophy, should we research it first?

  1. Map Making
  2. Literature
  3. Other

Please refer to the numbers for the poll.

Note: Other includes... well, everything else. Please specifiy what you mean by Other in the thread.
Also: CoL is in other as I did not see that much support for it in the threads.
 
So, this would seem to indicate that Conquests includes a return of the free tech from getting philosophy bonus. Or have I stumbled into the Civ II demogame forums by mistake? :confused:

I'd say map making is a nice pay-off. With it we could keep better track of our conquests in India. :D
 
I voted other. I agree that we should select the most expensive monopoly tech available.
 
I think we need to make a bee-line straight for the GL, so we should pick literature.
 
Map-Making:

Lighthouse and Galleys
 
Let's exploit our seafaring trait to the maximum. Map making all of the way!

donsig said:
So, this would seem to indicate that Conquests includes a return of the free tech from getting philosophy bonus. Or have I stumbled into the Civ II demogame forums by mistake?
Nope, you're in the Civ III demogame forum. They brought back the philosophy free tech in conquests.
 
I just had to break the tie. Map making is not a necessity at the moment.
 
Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.
 
mad-bax said:
Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.

But, building the Great Library is almost a necessity for out nation. Getting Literature will help ensure that we get it.
 
I see the GL as a mill-stone around our neck. It is a worthless wonder.

Consider Its' benefits.

1. It gives us every tech known by at least two other nations (that we know) until we have learned Education.

2. It gives 3cpt and eventually 6cpt.

Now consider the penalties.

1. It costs 300 shields to build.

2. It requires the knowledge of an optional tech.

Now you can discuss the ramifications of the contrasting pro's and con's.

1. Between building the GL and learning Education (when it expires) what will we gain. We have two choices. First we can turn research down or off and accumulate gold. This will of course condemn us to not taking a tech lead since 2 civs will already know any tech we get. Since we may not know all the civs, it is likely that there will be civs out there that are even more advanced, on another continent maybe with more civs and better terrain. Thus we can never get a monopoly tech and thus buying "stuff" like maps and resources will take up some of the extra gold we make. Since the upgrade multiplier is 3 for C3C we will not be able to make as many upgrades anyway as we would with "classic" Civ. C3C has a much lower resource density. If we save gold for upgrades and find ourselves without iron or horses then we end up with dozens of warriors about to jump into Republic and everything is a mess. Second, we can try to research at an accelerated rate to get a monopoly tech, or a tech lead for military advantage, in which case the GL will provide no benefit, except for a few initially. Thus we will be 300 shields shy of where we should be, which is 10 horses or swords and enough to take out a neighbour on their own.

2. What are our chances of getting it? Well, right now we have one city. The next city will be a settler factory, and the third city is also potentially a settler factory type city too. That means we need to wait until our fourth before we can begin to build it. Therefore it is not likely that we can complete it before Lit is known by other civs, and therefore with cascades from the Pyramids in particular our chances look slim to none and we end up with an expensive library since we will not be able to cascade the HG or GW ourselves. In trying to build it of course, we cannot reduce the towns population and it will max out. This means higher slider settings just to support 1 town. If the town is not on a river then the pop will max out at 6 and we waste food.

3. Just to finish with the GL. A useful tactic is to acquire the GL to catch up in tech without learning Education - gift the city to the AI and then avoid learning Education for a while (until MT usually) and then capture the city back to catch up in tech. We cannot do this here since we are proposing to handbuild it in our core, and we cannot tolerate a core city being owned by a rival.

So, not only is the GL risky, but is is actually detrimental to our chances of winning the game. It would be like tatooing "I love Britney Spears" across your forehead. Might seem a good idea after a few beers at the Karaoke bar, but you would spend the rest of your life regretting it.

4. Lit is an optional tech. We don't absolutely have to have it. We may choose to have a republic at some time sure. At the moment we have one lux. :p With no other luxes and to support republic we would need a slider hike forever, or size 3 towns.

5. Libraries. When will we need libraries. In despotism? Nah.. I don't think so. Therefore we need to prepare for becoming a republic first, before we start building libraries.

6. So from lit we end up with a monopoly tech. Wow. Congrats team.


Mapmaking is similarly foolish right now. This is not an archipelago. The starting landmass is apparently big enough for 3 civs. So it's continents or pangea. If its continents we will probably need suicide galleys for contact or wait for NAvigation/magnetism. So why mapmaking? We can already sail the seas. You don't think we can trade maps at this point do you. :nono: Printing Press is required for that.
You want to sail the high seas with settlers to the corners of the map to plant settlers in every godforsaken nook and cranny? Puh-leeeese!

You want us to build the lighthouse maybe? Obsolete with our UU of course, already have extra water movement of course, only site that could build it will be about number 6 on the city list of course and we don't even know what our landform is yet.

So what does currency give? It gives markets which compliment our commercial trait. It gives us the most expensive monopoly tech we can get. It gives us a tech that the AI neglect. It puts us a step nearer the MA. It prevents the wonder happy citizenry from commiting Hari Kiri (sp?) in the AA.

Vote currency. Vote to win the game. :)
 
mad-bax said:
Should be Currency in my view. Literature is absolute folly IMNSHO.

The AI also values Literature VERY highly.
 
If we will to build the Great Library, then go for Literature. The plan then would be in my view to switch off research after researching maybe 1/2 critical techs, then let the money fund our bloodthirsty wars with India and whoever else we find. I've done this before and is a lot of fun. This is the simplest way to not fall behind in research. By the time Education is approaching, we would have built libraries in all candidate cities so we don't take too great a hit scientifically. I strongly disagree that the GL is a waste of time, though you have to play at a higher level to make any significant use of it. Of course if we don't build the GL, Literature can wait and we're better off with Map Making.
This of course is a massive decision to make (nearly always rejected it appears to me) so needs serious consideration.
One final point on the GL/megawar option is that you can expect a few great leaders to emerge, helping in wonder building etc.
 
Can a moderator pleace change my vote from Literature to Other. I would like us to obtain the highest value Monopoly tech.

Moderator Action: 1 subtracted from Lit; 1 added to Other - Rik

Gregski,
The Great Leaders cannot rush wonders in C3C.
 
MOTH said:
Gregski,
The Great Leaders cannot rush wonders in C3C.

Ah well, they are still rather useful nonetheless. BTW does this apply to small wonders?
 
Just to clear up a few issues:
Map trading requires navigation.
Military great leaders cannot, I believe, rush small wonders either.

Take care if we're going to republic. One free unit per town, two gold per unit after that.

I'd like to reiterate going for map making. Let us exploit our seafaring trait to the max!
 
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