Warhammer: Heart of Chaos teasers

Psychic_Llamas · Apr 15, 2009

Porbably, but to do that, I would need aproximatively 10'000 years and a suppercomputer. lol

AHAHAHAHA

nice

Esentialy, coding the AI is dificault at this point, that is why the FF have an entire team dedicated to developement.

the AI question was more of a joke

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Psychic_Llamas said:
How about
if unit can use magic
and if the said unit is within x squares of Improvement Y
force all spells cast to be miscasts, make a notice pop up alerting the player to what happened

I could probably do this. I found the appropraite functions to use and what to edit.
Esentialy, you would need to add a new condition checking the unit position and the improvement (if any) it is on. If the condition is met, stop the spell and display a message saying: "Your [unit name] has failed to cast [spell name]."

Psychic_Llamas said:
If a unit miscasts
select an outcome from a list of bad through to disastrous results (ie head explodes (collateral damage to units sstack, unit dies.) summons a barbarian demon

I think I could rig a random number generator to triger when a miscast occurs to select a number 1 to N and each number having an event attached to it.

Psychic_Llamas said:
Or If a Unit is on improvement X
reveal all other improvements of the same type to the player
unti gets a spell which can teleport it to any other selected improvement of the same type at the cost of movement points

Still looking for this. So far you would need to create a new spell using Python/XML that allows teleportation. Than I could catch the spell when it is cast and make it remove movement points. Althou I have no idea yet how to limit it to what improvement it can target.

If you like, I could try and code it in the FF source code and upload it for you to check if it's what you want.

Ajidica · Apr 15, 2009

What would be nice to see is the mod be more 'user friendly', text saying what it does for the non-obvious functions like spell, or if your going to start with the FF route, all of the weapon promos need help, I was completly mystified by them.

One thing I would reccomend, get rid of the 'build all improvments from start, but faster with X tech'. That just annoyed me to no end (and I have to look at the improvement pedia entry to see what tech makes it build faster) and doubly screws over the AI as they don't really look before they leap.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ajidica said:
One thing I would reccomend, get rid of the 'build all improvments from start, but faster with X tech'. That just annoyed me to no end (and I have to look at the improvement pedia entry to see what tech makes it build faster) and doubly screws over the AI as they don't really look before they leap.

I for one love the 'build all improvments from start, but faster with X tech' concept. It realy brings some good flavor into the game for me. And it is much more fun than having to wait for a tech or go for a long reserch route when I can spam workers.

I have not seen the AI have any problem with geting stuck. One could code it so that the AI does not get to build them untill the appropriate tech. Althou I have a feeling that this is probably already the case.

Ajidica · Apr 15, 2009

Perhaps instead make an improvement that comes earlier but only provides the resource? Take calendar resources for example: Even though you could build a plantation from the start, it wont be as effective until you figure out when they ripen, how to fit in multiple seasons, breeding for traits, ect. It probably is just me that doesn't like it, because on the FfH forums, it sounds like FF can do no wrong.

As to screwing the AI over, it also has screwed me over on a few occasions where I don't look to see how long a mine will take because I assume its a reasonable time, but check back 7 turns later and realize that it still has 6 turns to go. Way to go, wasting 13 turns when I could have been building a road to a city to help transfer troops.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ajidica said:
Perhaps instead make an improvement that comes earlier but only provides the resource? Take calendar resources for example: Even though you could build a plantation from the start, it wont be as effective until you figure out when they ripen, how to fit in multiple seasons, breeding for traits, ect. It probably is just me that doesn't like it, because on the FfH forums, it sounds like FF can do no wrong.

I would rather have the exact oposite.
Have the standard set (Road, Farm, Mine, windmill, watermill, lumbermill, cotage) buildable from the start like in FFH but have specific ones (ones that provide resources) unavalable untill the right tech.

Ajidica said:
As to screwing the AI over, it also has screwed me over on a few occasions where I don't look to see how long a mine will take because I assume its a reasonable time, but check back 7 turns later and realize that it still has 6 turns to go. Way to go, wasting 13 turns when I could have been building a road to a city to help transfer troops.

Now that is your fault and not the games. I have checked and it definitively does not screw the AI over. Only noob players that forget to check what they are clicking. (It happened to me first time round too thou, but I figured it out and laughed at my own folly.)

Ajidica · Apr 15, 2009

Why should cottages, windmills, and watermills be available from start? In the case of the first one, people started spreading out once the city was either overcrowded or other reasons, plus, you can use it to make a military rush not quite as powerful, and balencing things out.

As to me forgetting it, ever heard of the KISS principle, Keep It Simple, Stupid? In one of the articles in the tutorials forum, IIRC, Soren Johnson, main designer for Civ4 (who no offense, has more experiance than you most likely) said 'Less is more'. Don't add more stuff simply becasue you can add stuff, don't fall into the MOAR!!!!! trap. What reason is there to change it, and what do you get by changing it?

And to only noob players not checking what they are clicking, when in every time I played the game or a mod, improvement lengths were generaly the same as the core game. When saying a fact you know, do you go check in the middle of the convirosation to see whether the fact has changed? If you do, you are very odd.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ajidica said:
Why should cottages, windmills, and watermills be available from start? In the case of the first one, people started spreading out once the city was either overcrowded or other reasons, plus, you can use it to make a military rush not quite as powerful, and balencing things out..

Actualy, these were always existing in some form. People built primitive windmills and watermills for their own use but these were unreliable and dodgy, taking a long time to construct ect. Once the tech became avalable to do them properly, they became rapidly mass produced. As for cotages, they are not dependant upon tech, but the citi population. A feudal lord could deside to order his people to resetle where ever he saw fit. But again, proper tech allowed such settlements to actualy be constructed properly and quickly.

Ajidica said:
As to me forgetting it, ever heard of the KISS principle, Keep It Simple, Stupid?

If you feel stupid, than by all meens fallow your principle. And let us smart people do things the smart way. (could not resist, the oldest programer put down for regular people ever. Just had to use it.)

Ajidica said:
In one of the articles in the tutorials forum, IIRC, Soren Johnson, main designer for Civ4 (who no offense, has more experiance than you most likely) said 'Less is more'. Don't add more stuff simply becasue you can add stuff, don't fall into the MOAR!!!!! trap. What reason is there to change it, and what do you get by changing it?

We get a more lore friendly and historicly accurate game.

Ajidica said:
And to only noob players not checking what they are clicking, when in every time I played the game or a mod, improvement lengths were generaly the same as the core game. When saying a fact you know, do you go check in the middle of the convirosation to see whether the fact has changed? If you do, you are very odd.

When ever you start playing a mod like FFH or FF or WHB, you must forget all that you learned before. Your statement was about as if you said: "When ever I played strategy games, I had a build meny on the right. So when I tried DOW I could not find the build meny, the game is bad."

Ahriman · Apr 15, 2009

At least as of a couple of patches ago, the FF AI was completely hamstrung by the "build any improvement very slowly until you get the right tech" design. It would often build nothing but lumbermills, and would do so very, very slowly, and so would never be any kind of real threat.

Keeping the vanilla civ improvement style (improvements are unlocked by techs, particularly for luxury resources, and can be boosted by later techs) is much more workable. The AI understands how to use this system.

I see little to be gained (and some fun/strategy from picking tech path to unlock improvements and resources to be lost) by making things available from the start. All the improvement are unlocked by pretty early techs anyway.

As for history/tech:
Cottages don't represent the physical structure, they represent the infrastructural and social requirements to start building up commercial merchant classes. There's a reason why this requires pottery in vanilla civ; you need food storage devices to have an urban society where food can be produced in farming areas and then transported and stored to urban areas, in order to generate a specialist non-subsisdence population that starts generating commerce.

Mills require a certain degree of machinery to be mass produced; when you're starting at basically the stone age (literally; you need a tech to figure out how to herd cows and sheep) that just isn't feasible.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ahriman said:
At least as of a couple of patches ago, the FF AI was completely hamstrung by the "build any improvement very slowly until you get the right tech" design. It would often build nothing but lumbermills, and would do so very, very slowly, and so would never be any kind of real threat.

Keeping the vanilla civ improvement style (improvements are unlocked by techs, particularly for luxury resources, and can be boosted by later techs) is much more workable. The AI understands how to use this system.

I see little to be gained (and some fun/strategy from picking tech path to unlock improvements and resources to be lost) by making things available from the start. All the improvement are unlocked by pretty early techs anyway.

Like wathermills?
They are the one I use the most and they come just so late.
Tech pats should be about meaningfull things like spell spheres and armies. Not about micromanaging what improvements you get.

The worldspells are hard coded to be unavalable untill certain conditions have been met. The same could be done with improvements for the AI if you realy see such a problem with them (I newer have).

Ajidica · Apr 15, 2009

(I can't figure out the multi-quote thing right now so I'm just copy/pasting

"Actualy, these were always existing in some form. People built primitive windmills and watermills for their own use but these were unreliable and dodgy, taking a long time to construct ect. Once the tech became avalable to do them properly, they became rapidly mass produced. As for cotages, they are not dependant upon tech, but the citi population. A feudal lord could deside to order his people to resetle where ever he saw fit. But again, proper tech allowed such settlements to actualy be constructed properly and quickly."
>If I wanted to, I could go build a windmill right now in under 10 minutes, doesn't mean it would work that well or do much of anything, Windmills and watermills require relativly decent knowledge of construction. And as to Feudal Lords ordering his population around, he wouldn't do that unless he wanted a revolt on his hands. Contrary to popular views, the feudal lords weren't despotic. When the Byzantine Emperor Justinian II transfered whole communities of slavs from Thrace to repopulate Anatolia, he really didn't do much to endear himselves to the slavs, and nearly had a revolt a couple times, and when he tried to force them to fight the Arabs, the slavs quickly went to the Arab side and the combined Arab/Slav army quickly destroyed a Byzantine Themate Army

For your comment to the KISS thing, fine, but you atleast understand my point at least.

"We get a more lore friendly and historicly accurate game"
I know very little about the warhammer universe, but perhaps PL could enlighten me how the FF improvement system makes WHFB 'more loyal to the game'

"When ever you start playing a mod like FFH or FF or WHB, you must forget all that you learned before. Your statement was about as if you said: "When ever I played strategy games, I had a build meny on the right. So when I tried DOW I could not find the build meny, the game is bad.""
Why should people have to relearn everything? FfH does a great job at providing common points, for your first game, you don't have to use magic, religions, or anything. You don't have to relearn anything, just add to your existing strategies. As to your second statement, I wouldn't care where the build menu is as long as it is intuitive and easy to access.

May I ask you, have you ever tried to make a mod before? I have made around 6 (most of them never left my HD though..) and large part of making a mod is being able to sell it. Basic psychology says that if people are thrown out of their comfort zone (trying a total conversion mod) they cling to what they know. And if they don't have that, they tend to retreat from it before becoming acclimated to it.

You don't have to make a 'todler mod', but don't change stuff just becasue you can. MOAR!!!!!! never works, which is why RFC despite not adding many new things besides stability and dynamic civs, has done so well, they know their strenghts and capitalize on that. From what I can tell, Warhammer is based on War and the clash of Empires, not on domestic development.

Perhaps it would do you well to read this again and learn from the experts?
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=173061

Ahriman · Apr 15, 2009

Like wathermills?
They are the one I use the most and they come just so late.

I have no problem with moving some improvements earlier; watermills can come at Construction tech, or invention at the latest - and get a small bonus at machinery and/or advanced engineering.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ajidica said:
(I can't figure out the multi-quote thing right now so I'm just copy/pasting

Some moder you are, when you can't even figure out a simple

Code:
tag.

Let me enlighten you:

Code:

[*quote=Person name*]text[*/quote*] Wrap this arround the part of the post that you want to quote, remove the * and you got it*

Ajidica said:

If I wanted to, I could go build a windmill right now in under 10 minutes, doesn't mean it would work that well or do much of anything, Windmills and watermills require relativly decent knowledge of construction.

Click to expand...

Techs in medieval and such eras are not the same as the modern concept.
During history, some people have had naturaly better understanding of how things work and could build things. Some times these things were rubish, some times they were great. Eather way, your average person could always build a windmill. He would start by trying it, failing, seing what was wrong, retrying... repeat untill you get a working model.
The average farmer might or might not know how to plow his field in the optimal way, but he does know to plow.

A tech in civ is basicly a point where your scolars have gathered the knowledge, studied it and distributed it to your people.

The Farming tech represents your scolars going to every farmer and teaching him the best metod of farming to increase production and decrease the Trial and Error period during construction significantly decreasing build time.

Ajidica said:

And as to Feudal Lords ordering his population around, he wouldn't do that unless he wanted a revolt on his hands. Contrary to popular views, the feudal lords weren't despotic. When the Byzantine Emperor Justinian II transfered whole communities of slavs from Thrace to repopulate Anatolia, he really didn't do much to endear himselves to the slavs, and nearly had a revolt a couple times, and when he tried to force them to fight the Arabs, the slavs quickly went to the Arab side and the combined Arab/Slav army quickly destroyed a Byzantine Themate Army

Click to expand...

Dude, for every enlightened emperor out there, there were 10-20 if not 100 despotic blood thirstey leaders that would order you around. In the early middle ages, peasants could be traded betwen feudal lords like cattle allong with their land.

Ajidica said:

For your comment to the KISS thing, fine, but you atleast understand my point at least.

Click to expand...

Simple is not always better. Some times, keeping it simple can only lead you to oversimplification.

Ajidica said:

I know very little about the warhammer universe, but perhaps PL could enlighten me how the FF improvement system makes WHFB 'more loyal to the game'

Click to expand...

By being more loyal to the appropriate historical era WHFB is set into.

Ajidica said:

Why should people have to relearn everything?

Click to expand...

Becouse no one wants to play a game that is the same as every other game but with some more eye candy.

Ajidica said:

FfH does a great job at providing common points, for your first game, you don't have to use magic, religions, or anything.

Click to expand...

...than what exacly is the diference betwen FfH and normal civ on marathon and locked in the medieval era...
Are you sure that you have played the mod at all? You should realy try playing FF some more...

Ajidica said:

As to your second statement, I wouldn't care where the build menu is as long as it is intuitive and easy to access.

Click to expand...

As for DOW, there is no build meny, you have to click the appropriate building and find the build button on them. So the build system is completely oposite to C&C games. Hence my example.

Ajidica said:

May I ask you, have you ever tried to make a mod before? I have made around 6 (most of them never left my HD though..) and large part of making a mod is being able to sell it. Basic psychology says that if people are thrown out of their comfort zone (trying a total conversion mod) they cling to what they know. And if they don't have that, they tend to retreat from it before becoming acclimated to it.

Click to expand...

Actualy, I am working on several mods. Not for civ thou. Mostly for DOWSS and Space Empires IV and several other games. I am also a programer so I know full well how the public reacts to a brand new product. If you just keep playing the safe confort zone route, than you are sacraficing progres in reguards of quality. I would always prefer a product that needs some getting used to but astonishes me in the end.

Ajidica said:

You don't have to make a 'todler mod', but don't change stuff just becasue you can. MOAR!!!!!! never works, which is why RFC despite not adding many new things besides stability and dynamic civs, has done so well, they know their strenghts and capitalize on that. From what I can tell, Warhammer is based on War and the clash of Empires, not on domestic development.

Click to expand...

Well, I don't know about you, but there are a lot of people here that do not see this mod as a Tabletop for Civ mod. We want to play the lore behind the battles. To lead the nations into progres, not just to wage war.
I don't want to just fight battles with the Empire, I want to be Emperor Carl Franc leading his empire, nagotiating with the Bretonians, building up the lands and spreading the holy church.

Besides, if you have checked the lore, you would see that in WHFB, the empires rarely clash on a big scale. It's basicly a newer ending series of skirmishing with intervals of peace, but rarely huge wars.

Ahriman · Apr 15, 2009

This thread is currently at a snarkiness level of 5; lets dial it back to a 3.

The Farming tech represents your scolars going to every farmer and teaching him the best metod of farming to increase production and decrease the Trial and Error period during construction significantly decreasing build time

Actually, no, not really; the farming tech represents the very first shift from a hunter/gather society to the beginnings of agriculture, as on earth happened first in the Nile, Tigris/Euphrates, Indus (and then Ganges) and Yangtze river valleys.

This game starts at the dawn of civilization (ie the first real cities) and works up from there, getting into dark ages and then medieval tech pretty quickly (we don't really have a classical era in this mod) and eventually early renaissance.

Becouse no one wants to play a game that is the same as every other game but with some more eye candy.

I think we have enough distinction from civ and other mods without messing with improvements too much. Also, we have more plans for shifting sands (desertification caused by Khemri), Dark Forests (for beastmen) and various chaos terrain. There will be plenty going on.

It's basicly a newer ending series of skirmishing with intervals of peace, but rarely huge wars

This isn't really something the civ engine can handle.

Ajidica · Apr 15, 2009

"Some moder you are, when you can't even figure out a simple

tag."
>I was refering to the multi-quote function, I never have really had a need to use it before. Then again, you don't nescesarily have to be good at stuff to do well, as evidenced by poor Dan Quayle.

Techs in medieval and such eras are not the same as the modern concept.
During history, some people have had naturaly better understanding of how things work and could build things. Some times these things were rubish, some times they were great. Eather way, your average person could always build a windmill. He would start by trying it, failing, seing what was wrong, retrying... repeat untill you get a working model.
The average farmer might or might not know how to plow his field in the optimal way, but he does know to plow.
>Just because someone knows how to do something, doesn't mean that it works. Case point: I could likely make a better windmill if I were in the middle ages (if of course I had time to figure out the tools) becasue I know of air flow and Bernoullis Principle, they didn't.

Dude, for every enlightened emperor out there, there were 10-20 if not 100 despotic blood thirstey leaders that would order you around. In the early middle ages, peasants could be traded betwen feudal lords like cattle allong with their land.
>Peasents were generaly not traded around like cattle because it was expansive to uproot them and replant them. Until the early Industrial Age, the primary sounce of wealth was land, they had an agriculture based economic system in Europe and most the world. Land can't be picked up and moved around, and the nobles generaly wanted happy peasents because happy peasents are more willing to pay taxes. More taxes, the more knights he could afford to support, and the larger his armies could be, and so on. Being a despotic dictator wasn't generaly effective because as soon as an enemy army came along, instant army for them from your previously despondant peasents. An example of this occured in England with IIRC, Charles the something coming back from France and rasing an army of near-revolt Scots.

Simple is not always better. Some times, keeping it simple can only lead you to oversimplification.
>Would you say Civ4 is oversimplified? Your taking things to extreme here. FfH is a good mod becasue it didn't make things to complex.

By being more loyal to the appropriate historical era WHFB is set into.
>I fail to see how being able to build plantations and mines from the start make it more faithful the WHFB.

Becouse no one wants to play a game that is the same as every other game but with some more eye candy.
>Than explain the popularity of say, the mod Varietas Delectat which all it does is give all civs unique unit art?

than what exacly is the diference betwen FfH and normal civ on marathon and locked in the medieval era...
Are you sure that you have played the mod at all? You should realy try playing FF some more...
>I was refering to the first game someone played in the mod. First time I played FfH I didn't have a clue how magic and the religions workedl but that didn't stop me from enjoying a fun game as the Bannor. And as for your information, I have played FfH from FfH I to ICE right now. I also tried FF and discared it for the same reaons we are arguing over now.

As for DOW, there is no build meny, you have to click the appropriate building and find the build button on them. So the build system is completely oposite to C&C games. Hence my example.
>Ive never heard of DOW, so I didn't know anything about its build style, as long as the buttons are intutive and understandable, I'm fine with it.

Actualy, I am working on several mods. Not for civ thou. Mostly for DOWSS and Space Empires IV and several other games. I am also a programer so I know full well how the public reacts to a brand new product. If you just keep playing the safe confort zone route, than you are sacraficing progres in reguards of quality. I would always prefer a product that needs some getting used to but astonishes me in the end.
>If someone doesn't understand something when trying it out, why would they keep playing to find the good stuff in it?

Well, I don't know about you, but there are a lot of people here that do not see this mod as a Tabletop for Civ mod. We want to play the lore behind the battles. To lead the nations into progres, not just to wage war.
>I never said turn it into a tabletop mod, but play to its strengths. Warhammer isn't about the development of cities and empires, it is about epic battles and such. The empire development should be there certianly, but it should compliment the core principles.

Anyhow, sorry for getting the thread OT, I tend to get argumentative when people directly say I'm 'not getting it' and don't give any examples of why I am wrong. You know my position, say away from MOAR!!!!!!

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ahriman said:
This thread is currently at a snarkiness level of 5; lets dial it back to a 3.

Shall try, but I can't promise anything.

Ahriman said:
Actually, no, not really; the farming tech represents the very first shift from a hunter/gather society to the beginnings of agriculture, as on earth happened first in the Nile, Tigris/Euphrates, Indus (and then Ganges) and Yangtze river valleys.

This game starts at the dawn of civilization (ie the first real cities) and works up from there, getting into dark ages and then medieval tech pretty quickly (we don't really have a classical era in this mod) and eventually early renaissance.

You have to admit that this is rather strange, most of the civs newer existed in the stone age to begin with. Take for example the DE.

And techs through ages went like this:
Stone age: A major transition like coper being discovered, the start of farming, the discovery of fire and the wheel.
Clasical/Middle age: The spread of information widely by scolars and priests
Modern time: The aquisition of specialised knowledge for use by specialists in specialised branches of industry,

Ahriman said:
I think we have enough distinction from civ and other mods without messing with improvements too much. Also, we have more plans for shifting sands (desertification caused by Khemri), Dark Forests (for beastmen) and various chaos terrain. There will be plenty going on.

I still say that if nothing else, the FF system is far superior to the vanila civ system. If nothing else, it's just that much more fun.

Ahriman said:
This isn't really something the civ engine can handle.

I was just explaining the lore to the guy, not requesting anything.

Ajidica · Apr 15, 2009

I was just commenting on what I remember of the lore, noteably the big battles, Empire vs Chaos, Early vamps vs pre-mummification khemri, ect. I do agree with Ahriman though, we have breached the snarkiness factor.

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Firstly, please use the proper quote function, not the stupid >. It makes it hard to track what is quoted and what is your text.

Ajidica said:
Just because someone knows how to do something, doesn't mean that it works. Case point: I could likely make a better windmill if I were in the middle ages (if of course I had time to figure out the tools) becasue I know of air flow and Bernoullis Principle, they didn't.

Hence it would take him years to do something you can do better in a mounth. But he can do it none the less. Case in question the piramids. They carved those things out with stone tools just by sheer effort and time.

Ajidica said:
Peasents were generaly not traded around like cattle because it was expansive to uproot them and replant them. Until the early Industrial Age, the primary sounce of wealth was land, they had an agriculture based economic system in Europe and most the world. Land can't be picked up and moved around, and the nobles generaly wanted happy peasents because happy peasents are more willing to pay taxes. More taxes, the more knights he could afford to support, and the larger his armies could be, and so on. Being a despotic dictator wasn't generaly effective because as soon as an enemy army came along, instant army for them from your previously despondant peasents. An example of this occured in England with IIRC, Charles the something coming back from France and rasing an army of near-revolt Scots.

I was refering to the fact that peasants were traded allong with the land they worked. If I trade a farming village to you, I also trade all the people there, just as I trade all the cattle in the pens. The peasants had about as much say in the matter as the cows. Most of them diden't even know who was their lord, they just knew that someone would come to pick up the taxes.

Ajidica said:
Would you say Civ4 is oversimplified?

Yes, extremely CIV is so simple that it hurts. Hence RFC, Civ++ and more than 10 other mods to correct that.

Ajidica said:
Your taking things to extreme here. FfH is a good mod becasue it didn't make things to complex.

That is why I prefer FF, it goes beyond the incomplex and backward FfH and makes it into a proper mod by radicaly changing it.

Ajidica said:
Than explain the popularity of say, the mod Varietas Delectat which all it does is give all civs unique unit art?

Becouse it is modular with other mods. Most of the downloads are by people that want to merge it with say RFC, wolfhanze or something similar.

Ajidica said:
I was refering to the first game someone played in the mod. First time I played FfH I didn't have a clue how magic and the religions workedl but that didn't stop me from enjoying a fun game as the Bannor. And as for your information, I have played FfH from FfH I to ICE right now. I also tried FF and discared it for the same reaons we are arguing over now.

Than we have nothing to talk about. We are completely oposite personalities.
You are obviusely the kind of person that would rather use a product that is like MS office, bland, mildly inovative and without energy.
I prefer a uprooting experiance. I would rather have a bunjy jump than jumping off my bed. You would prefer a nice soft ride, I want a product to pick me up and throw me. It's basicly the old PC vs Mac dilema.

Ajidica said:
If someone doesn't understand something when trying it out, why would they keep playing to find the good stuff in it?

Actualy, that is true for only the minority of users. Most will poke around untill they figure it out.

Ajidica said:
I never said turn it into a tabletop mod, but play to its strengths. Warhammer isn't about the development of cities and empires, it is about epic battles and such. The empire development should be there certianly, but it should compliment the core principles.

This is CIV after all not C&C. Civ is about empire development not war.
By bringing WHFB to civ, they tried to bring out the lore and the background from WHFB not to make a battle game with empire building as a backdrop.
The empire development is the core principal.

Ahriman, did I do a reasonable job at self controll? I realy tried.

Ahriman · Apr 15, 2009

All of this is basically irrelevant. The deciding factors for this feature are:
a) Can the AI player handle it? That is, does the AI still intelligently choose which improvements to build, and build only the cheap ones unless there is literally nothing else to build? Can the AI actually build sufficient improvements that it has a strong enough economy and enough military units to challenge the human player? This was a weakpoint of this mod in previous builds.
b) Is it fun for the human player, assuming that the AI can handle it properly?

If a) isn't met, I don't really care that reasonable people can disagree about b).

PPQ_Purple · Apr 15, 2009

Ahriman said:
All of this is basically irrelevant. The deciding factors for this feature are:
a) Can the AI player handle it? That is, does the AI still intelligently choose which improvements to build, and build only the cheap ones unless there is literally nothing else to build? Can the AI actually build sufficient improvements that it has a strong enough economy and enough military units to challenge the human player? This was a weakpoint of this mod in previous builds.
b) Is it fun for the human player, assuming that the AI can handle it properly?

If a) isn't met, I don't really care that reasonable people can disagree about b).

a) Good point, can always be corected by disabling the improvement using the DLL or Python for the AI untill said tech is reserched. It would make sure that the AI does not use it to get bogged up early.

b)This is highly arguable as you have seen...

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