Overall Civ Elimination Thread

Dogmouth said:

It's a shame that Venice got knocked out so early. It's a unique civ that forces us to play differently, and it's pretty solid if you get it right. Oh well...

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For me Venice being knocked out while post BNW premiere it seemed like top tier BNW civ is pretty shocking O_o
Seriously, guys, this civ is damn interesting and powerful, what's up?

America- 14
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 15
Austria- 23
Aztec- 16
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 15
England- 19
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 19
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 27
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Russia- 2
Shoshone- 21
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 23
Zulu- 22


IMHO most overrated civ in the whole game. Yeah, free "sea building which name in English I forgot " are pretty good, free city connections and longer sea routes are cool for economy.
And that's where Carthago power ends. Mountain crossing is not so useful, quinquireme is tragic (the only thing trireme is designed to is early sea exploration and occasionally plundering trade routes, good luck with attacking cities with triremes) and african elephant not so good.

Sweden - cool civ with cool leader, beautiful colours caroleans and interesting UA damn powerful for culture and diplomatic victory. My favourite civ from GAK with exception of Maya.

Pepo said:

why has venice been eliminated but japan is still alive?japan is the worst civ with poor uu and a average Ua

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For the reasons greygamer and others have said...

I think not everyone likes having to adapt their gameplay to the particular civ..... I don't always like doing that either, but somehow Venice...probably not until the third game... started to resonate with me. Instead of building up your own cities ...often in locations that you don't really like anyway, you can shop around and grab pre-built improvement- and unit-filled cities at a time when you have a better idea where the gameplay is going to be important.

In one of my games, India had a wonder stuffed land-locked capital in a location that was a bit hard to get to ...required crossing through another civ's...Napoleon's... territory. There were two coastal CS's, though, bordering India....over time I bought them out ...no warmongering penalty with the GM... teched up... I was close to Artillery anyway...and knocked them down to two small cities, which the Danes eventually eliminated [I maintained Open Borders with Harald to allow him to send his huge...though rather incompetent armies through to get at Ghandi].... it was nice to see the end of Ghandi...a big annoyance in the World Congress was removed....

America- 14
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 15
Austria- 23
Aztec- 16
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 15
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 19
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 27
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Russia- 0
Shoshone- 21
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 23
Zulu- 22

Krajzen said:

For me Venice being knocked out while post BNW premiere it seemed like top tier BNW civ is pretty shocking O_o
Seriously, guys, this civ is damn interesting and powerful, what's up?

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Basically the two civs with built in down sides got eliminated early. It's not that hard to figure out. There already is a CS buying civ with no weird restrictions in Austria. Portugal's UA can generate a ton of gold but with no weird restrictions.

Some people just don't feel like extra gpt is worth trading for settlers. In the end all Venice does is trade hammers for gold. A nice wide order civ can produce everything Venice can buy with hammers at pretty much the same speed.

The only people who feel like Venice is good are ones who prefer Tall or OCC strategies. It makes perfect sense for some one who prefers wide to vote it down.

America- 14
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16 - One of the few capable of early sieges thanks to the Siege Tower, decent UB and competitive UA (not to mention lovely colours)
Austria- 23
Aztec- 16
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12 - One of the blandest civs in the game; boring UA, mediocre UB and non-synergising UU. Doesn't deserve to be around when Venice has been kicked out.
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 19
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 27
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 21
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 23
Zulu- 22

I actually found Venice quite a well designed civ, apart from the ridiculous amounts of gold in the later game making for an easy diplomatic victory (although in BNW this also applies to a lesser extent to the others). It isn't particularly map-dependent (unless you have a map with hardly any water) as the starting bias will *always* find you a coast tile. However, I can understand about the Great Galleass, as in that part of the game there aren't really any naval battles on the scale of those on land.

America- 14
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 16
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 19
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 17
War simply isn't a winning strategy in civ 5. This makes a civ dependent on weak, map dependent, domination abilities pretty bad.
Persia- 21
Persia is a good generalist civ that can succeed at whatever they feel like doing. Persia is nice because you don't feel like you have to play a restrictive game.
Poland- 27
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 21
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 23
Zulu- 22

Sorry I couldn't get here sooner to save Venice. They're a top tier civ in my experience, but I think they went out early because a certain someone doesn't like them. Clearly a large majority of voters here think the Venice hate is undeserved.

America- 11
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 16
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 19
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 27
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 23
Zulu- 22

America is just blah.
Not the worst, but really not exciting in any way, and really not very strong overall.

Shoshone is rather obviously pretty awesome, and makes the game start easy-mode...

MantaRevan said:

Sorry I couldn't get here sooner to save Venice. They're a top tier civ in my experience, but I think they went out early because a certain someone doesn't like them. Clearly a large majority of voters here think the Venice hate is undeserved.

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Who would that be? I'm only responsible for 3 votes against them. That's only 9 of the 33 points it took to knock them out. It's not just one person...11 downvotes and 13 upvotes is hardly a majority.

Sad part is I usually alter my votes every other day to give people a chance to counter them but all the whining about the downvotes was just getting irritating so it had to go.

America- 11
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 16 - 3 = 13 - The Aztec are so, so meh.
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 19
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 27
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 23 + 1 = 24 - I like Sweden. Good UA, good UUs (yes, even the Hakkapellita has its uses!), good colors, good music.
Zulu- 22

VicRatlhead5199 said:

Who would that be? I'm only responsible for 3 votes against them. That's only 9 of the 33 points it took to knock them out. It's not just one person...11 downvotes and 13 upvotes is hardly a majority.

Sad part is I usually alter my votes every other day to give people a chance to counter them but all the whining about the downvotes was just getting irritating so it had to go.

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Venice is the most polarizing civ in the game from what I can tell. I think there's about a third of voters who would probably put them in the top 10, while there are also around a third of voters who would put them in the bottom 3. I think they are probably much better than they got here, but the way this thread works, their ranking is what it is. For people who like playing tall anyway, Venice is a dream come true, but it's also worse than a pure Vanilla civ for a lot of other people, so I can kind of understand its ranking.

I do think your puppeted city states should be able to buy tiles though. It can be frustrating trying to get a religion with a city state that's not quite expanded to that natural wonder yet...

By my reckoning this is the situation at present, Venice got reinstated for a while but some folks like to kill off the strugglers. So circling the drain now are Brazil (who likes Jungle starts and late bloomers), the Iroquois (always used to be a strong AI before BNW) and Byzantine (because Pety sucks?)
Eliminated
38 Russia
39 Venice
40 India
41 France
42 Denmark

America- 11
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 13
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20 +1 I played a game with China for comparison and CKN struggle taking capitals
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 24 -3 I feel they are overrated, while they are a strong AI I don't really struggle getting SP
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 24
Zulu- 22

SalemSage said:

Fixing the votes because Rkade's votes were ignored, for some reason.

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Thanks. Can I do more than once? What are the rules on these things?

I agree about Russia, they can be very powerful civ if start is right... but if you're unlucky to get iron or horses, you're done... and it happens to me more often then you might think. I never get Iron with JAPAN! :angry: Krepost should be changed tho, it was effective in vanilla and GnK when you were allowed to go super wide (it also made their UA terrific) so Krepost allowed you to snatch land more quickly without having to build cultural buildings in every city. (Krepost worked well with Liberty)... but now, Krepost isn't that great, since you'll have fewer cities and you'll grab the land anyway.

Byzantium... they are fun to play. Sure, on HD it makes it harder to make powerful religion, but you can grab extra belief that suits you. You can even take another pantheon (like +1 faith\culture from silver and gold, with +2 faith from quarries, which will make your FpT really high), plus one you get from Piety policy, which makes their religion very strong (or you can pick Defenders of Faith or Just War, depending on how you are willing to play). I find that founder believes aren't that great (2-3 are good, rest are situational and there's not much of variety compared to pantheons). Pantheons are much better and more useful.


America- 14
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 22
Aztec- 15 -
Babylon- 22
Brazil- 9
Byzantium- 14
Carthage- 20
Celts- 18
China- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 15
England- 23
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 23
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 11
Indonesia- 19
Iroquois- 14
Japan- 17
Korea- 21
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 17
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 23
Polynesia- 17
Portugal- 20
Rome- 21
Russia- 16
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 22
Songhai- 21
Spain- 19
Sweden- 22
Venice- 9
Zulu- 21

America - 3 ... sorry, but George is just boring. UA is meh, altho I like +1 sight for land units (makes scouting in early games much easier). Minuteman is meh, and their Bombers, while good (two free promotion, yes, please!) you'll get them way too late in the game, when they aren't that much important. By the time you finally get them, you'll either have highly promoted GWB or enough ground units to deal with AIs, so meeh.

Venice +1 - Venice is awesome if you know how to play it. Use first 2-3 Merchants to buy good coastal CS, rush buy granaries, then use first two sea trade routes to supply Venice with food. It will grow really fast, and you'll have enough sea trade routes to have steady income. By the end of the game, you'll have 14 TR you can use to get huge GPT. Finish Commerce, then send any Merchant you get to do trade mission. MoV gives higher amount of gold, plus double from complete Commerce. With those guys and TR, you'll have enough gold to buy up any CS and control World Congress. In other words, you'll dictate the game. Just stay away from direct battles and let other AI do your dirty work. You'll have enough gold to bribe any warmongering AI and keep him busy from focusing on you. Venice is also OOC, so any National Wonder is easily made, and you'll usually have enough production to snatch few WW (it's coastal, so there's chance to get some sea luxuries + fish, just pick +1 production from fishing boats to snatch Great Lighthouse or Colossus)

when casting a vote ,quote the latest vote list and then vote.is ridicoulous to see venice back,.,again

njmfff said:

I agree about Russia, they can be very powerful civ if start is right... but if you're unlucky to get iron or horses, you're done... and it happens to me more often then you might think. I never get Iron with JAPAN! :angry:

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You are aware there is something called Strategic Balance in resource settings, right?...
Personally I always take it to avoid Poland/Mongolia/Greece/Russia with no horses and Rome/Japan/Indonesia/England with no iron. Usually without strategic balance strategic resources are distributed damn weirdly in the map, so weirdly it stops being challenging to get them and becomes just annoying. And for me it isn't "realistic" when horse - based Mongolian Civilization finds itself in the continent where there are no horses.

njmfff said:

Krepost should be changed tho, it was effective in vanilla and GnK when you were allowed to go super wide (it also made their UA terrific) so Krepost allowed you to snatch land more quickly without having to build cultural buildings in every city. (Krepost worked well with Liberty)... but now, Krepost isn't that great, since you'll have fewer cities and you'll grab the land anyway.

Click to expand...

Krepost originally had -50% to culture cost of tiles and IMHO that was really nice, but long ago someone not very smart had brilliant idea of changing that in patch, so currently we have this damn useless bulding

njmfff said:

Byzantium... they are fun to play. Sure, on HD it makes it harder to make powerful religion, but you can grab extra belief that suits you. You can even take another pantheon (like +1 faith\culture from silver and gold, with +2 faith from quarries, which will make your FpT really high), plus one you get from Piety policy, which makes their religion very strong (or you can pick Defenders of Faith or Just War, depending on how you are willing to play). I find that founder believes aren't that great (2-3 are good, rest are situational and there's not much of variety compared to pantheons). Pantheons are much better and more useful.

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It always seemed to me that all this Byzantium - what - if - I - don't - get - religion hystery is little silly. Oh boy, in this game there are something like t h r e e civs in 43 which have bonus towards founding religion (Maya, Celts, Ethiopia; by the way, each of them has something completely useless, dear Adwa, Atlatl and long term celt UA ) and 40 civs have nothing towards religion founding. So I simply take Piety or faith pantheon while playing Byzantines. Yes, it is possible on immortal/deity


America- 14
Arabia- 20
Assyria- 20
Austria- 22
Aztec- 15 -
Babylon- 19
Brazil- 9
Byzantium- 14
Carthage- 20
Celts- 18
China- 22
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 15
England- 23
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 23
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 22
India- 11
Indonesia- 19
Iroquois- 14
Japan- 17
Korea- 21
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 17
Ottoman- 20
Persia- 20
Poland- 23
Polynesia- 17
Portugal- 20
Rome- 21
Russia- 16
Shoshone- 20
Siam- 22
Songhai- 21
Spain- 19
Sweden- 22
Venice- 10
Zulu- 21

Die boring Babylon, one day I will finally kill you
Long live Venetian OCC

Just correcting the votes, Krajzen and Njmff posts are based on a much older post. Venice is dead, has been dead. The correction below includes the downvotes from Krajzen and Njmff.

America- 8
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 13
Babylon- 19
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 9
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 18
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 24
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 24
Zulu- 22

America- 8
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 13
Babylon- 19
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 10 with piety being moved to the ancient era Byzantium's UA is much less of a gamble than it used to be. Only on immortal and deity is it hard to found and if you have a lot of forest to chop it's possible to rush Stonehenge even on Deity. The UA can be quite powerful and upgraded dromons are great to have around. Cataphracts are mainly useful on slower speeds but still a decent unit to build.
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 20
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 15-Underwhelming UA and a so so UI. The best thing about this civ is its UU but even the Berber Cavalry's bonuses can be situational.
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 24
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 24
Zulu- 22

America- 5
Arabia- 21
Assyria- 16
Austria- 23
Aztec- 13
Babylon- 19
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 10
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 21
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 15
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 24
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 24
Zulu- 22

What other Civ can be a leader in faith, science and flexibility from only a few turns into the game? If you said something other than the Maya, you're wrong. Plus those free great people always seem to arrive just when you need them, don't they?

America isn't all that bad. Their minutemen are especially good. But compared to many of the others, she just doesn't compare.

Although to be honest, with a few exceptions, most of the Civilizations are well balanced. The mid-tier civs are difficult to rank, and comes down mostly to playstyle.

America- 5
Arabia- 22 Uniques all work so well together
Assyria- 16
Austria- 20 Not my playstyle
Aztec- 13
Babylon- 19
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 10
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 21
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 15
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 24
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 16
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 24
Zulu- 22

America- 5
Arabia- 22 Uniques all work so well together
Assyria- 13
Austria- 20 Not my playstyle
Aztec- 13
Babylon- 19
Brazil- 4
Byzantium- 10
Carthage- 17
Celts- 16
China- 23
Dutch- 20
Egypt- 12
England- 20
Ethiopia- 21
Germany- 24
Greece- 20
Huns- 20
Inca- 23
Indonesia- 20
Iroquois- 6
Japan- 17
Korea- 19
Maya- 21
Mongols- 20
Morocco- 15
Ottoman- 17
Persia- 21
Poland- 24
Polynesia-14
Portugal- 17
Rome- 21
Shoshone- 22
Siam- 22
Songhai- 15
Spain- 19
Sweden- 24
Zulu- 22