Pantheon, Founder and Follower Beliefs

This here is just meant as a cut-out from the Sunday's PAX thread, and I want to see some speculations :

albie_123 said:

Thanks heaps, Optional!

I fixed a few typos and put in some icons for readability.

Ancestor Worship -

+1 Culture from Shrines​

Dance of the Aurora -

+1 Faith from Tundra tiles without Forest​

Desert Folklore -

+1 Faith from Desert tiles​

Faith Healers -

+30 HP healed per turn if adjacent to a friendly city​

Fertility Rites -

10% faster Growth Rate​

God of Craftsmen -

+1 Production from cities with population of 5+​

God of the Open Sky -

+1 Culture from Pastures​

God of the Sea -

+1 Production from fishing boats​

God of War -

Gain Faith if you win a battle within 4 tiles of your city​

Goddess of Festivals -

+1 Culture & +1 Faith for each Wine and Incense​

Goddess of Love -

+1 Happiness from cities with population of 6+​

Goddess of Protection -

+50% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength​

Goddess of the Hunt -

+1 Food from camps​

Messenger of the Gods -

+2 Science in cities with a Trade Route​

Monument to the Gods -

+15% Production of Ancient / Classical Wonders​

One with Nature -

+4 Faith from Natural Wonders​

Oral Tradition -

+1 Culture from Plantations​

Religious Settlements -

+15% Faster Border Growth​

Sacred Path -

+1 Culture from Jungle tiles​

Sacred Waters -

+1 Happiness from cities on rivers​

Stone Circles -

+2 Faith from Quarries​

Click to expand...

sukritact said:

Here are the founder beliefs

Church Property: +2 Gold for each city following this Religion
Initiation Rites: +100 Gold when each city first converts to this Religion
Interfaith Dialougue: Gain Science when a missionary spreads this religion to cities of other religions
Papal Primacy + 15 to Influence making (?) points with City States following this religion
Peace Loving: +1 Happiness for every 5 followers of this Religion in non-enemy cities
Pilgrmage: +1 Faith for each foreign city following this Religion
Tithe: +1 Gold for every 4 followers of this Religion
World Church: +1 Culture for every 5 followers of this Religion in other civilizations

Confident in everything but Papal Primacy (which is definitely wrong)

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AriochIV said:

You left out the Follower Beliefs.

Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
Religious Art: Hermitage provides +5 Culture in city
Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
Swords into Plowshares: 15?% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

Click to expand...

Opinions ?

Some of them seem stronger than others, but possibly that's because certain ones appeal to how I play the game more than others.

I think that the pantheon beliefs that benefit from terrain are great, perhaps now spawning in the middle of the desert, tundra or jungle wont be so bad.

Im hoping the Mayans get some sort of jungle bonus or UI, that, along with sacred path seems like fun.

Messenger of the Gods would be huge with Arabia if they're unchanged

Goddess of Protection -
+50% increase in city Ranged Combat Strength

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This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

kind of unrelated, but it is speculation. the faith healers or whatever made me think about how jaguars are going to need more than 2 hp healed. maybe they'll change it to 20. anything on this?

FeiLing said:

This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

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To balance this it's quite simple . Just don't allow stacking this bonus and Oligarchy bonus . If still's overpowered,just limit to few cities .

Also don't forget if you adopt a belief it blocks it for all others.

I'm not too afraid 100% increased ranged strength +50% with this belief for cities will make them impenetrable fortresses. Your units will have 100 HP now, so that should more than balance this out... in theory.

That could be possible. They don't allow japan UA and Autocracy's Populism bonus to stack.

Going against a heavily stacked Ethiopia with Goddess of Protection or Faith healers will be really challenging.

Im really liking the possibilities the beliefs will bring to the table for stacking UA bonuses, balancing out or just taking advantage of the terrain.

Like for example, Spain with One with nature, Egypt with Monuments to the Gods, etc.

seasnake said:

Some of them seem stronger than others, but possibly that's because certain ones appeal to how I play the game more than others.

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No, I think there are genuine balance issues. I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't take Fertility Rites and Messenger of the Gods (except perhaps the latter if you're playing a tall empire), and Goddess of the Hunt rewards you unreasonably for settling near the relevant resources. At least they've balanced the plantation bonus against the fact that you're more likely to have lots of plantations than anything else, since the largest number of luxury resources can be generated from those.

On the other hand, faith may be more valuable than it seems at first - getting a Mausoleum of Helicarnassus bonus whenever you spread sufficient faith to another city is not to be sniffed at.

religious settlements would work great with russia's krepost

PhilBowles said:

No, I think there are genuine balance issues. I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't take Fertility Rites and Messenger of the Gods (except perhaps the latter if you're playing a tall empire), and Goddess of the Hunt rewards you unreasonably for settling near the relevant resources.

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I see a few here as well that will be favourites all the time, certainly Fertility Rites being among them, but at least there's a bunch, and you won't be completely free to pick. Probably on an average difficulty level you'll be able to pick the first ones, and then after that you get what's left.
Maybe, if you're late, you have to adopt a religion that another civ has already picked before you can gain access to certain beliefs. We're not sure yet how this exactly will work out.

It won't be as unbalanced as the current Social Policies, where players pick the same policies over and over again.

GenjiKhan said:

To balance this it's quite simple . Just don't allow stacking this bonus and Oligarchy bonus . If still's overpowered,just limit to few cities .

Click to expand...

FeiLing said:

This is awful. Damn AI's will always be taking this and Tradition and 1-shot one of your units every turn unless you're two eras ahead in tech.

Click to expand...

Optional said:

Also don't forget if you adopt a belief it blocks it for all others.

I'm not too afraid 100% increased ranged strength +50% with this belief for cities will make them impenetrable fortresses. Your units will have 100 HP now, so that should more than balance this out... in theory.

Click to expand...

Hmm, even in vanilla there's these things called 'promotions', and they happen to include things like 'cover' - which gives better defence vs. ranged attacks. Maybe someone might want you to use those more often (rather than ignoring them - which we all basically do).

PhilBowles said:

No, I think there are genuine balance issues. I have a hard time seeing why you wouldn't take Fertility Rites and Messenger of the Gods (except perhaps the latter if you're playing a tall empire), and Goddess of the Hunt rewards you unreasonably for settling near the relevant resources. At least they've balanced the plantation bonus against the fact that you're more likely to have lots of plantations than anything else, since the largest number of luxury resources can be generated from those.

On the other hand, faith may be more valuable than it seems at first - getting a Mausoleum of Helicarnassus bonus whenever you spread sufficient faith to another city is not to be sniffed at.

Click to expand...

keep in mind this is a demo, and not final product. Plus, hey, what would Civ be without balance issues when something is released?

The point of the terrain bonuses seems to be that you are far more likely to worship some 'natural' thing near you, rather than something that's not - Ie, actually historical.

oh, and +2 beakers/trade route is pretty minimal across a medium sized empire, compared to, say, a library in one tall city.


edit:

Random other aside:

Does anyone remember if the demo civ happened to be the 'first' to found a religion? If not, then there may be other beliefs missing - since only one religion can have a belief at a time.

Austria had a religion.

MadDjinn said:

Hmm, even in vanilla there's these things called 'promotions', and they happen to include things like 'cover' - which gives better defence vs. ranged attacks. Maybe someone might want you to use those more often (rather than ignoring them - which we all basically do).



keep in mind this is a demo, and not final product. Plus, hey, what would Civ be without balance issues when something is released?

Click to expand...

It's due for release in two months. The Goddess of the Hunt ability has remained the same since the expansion was first previewed, and that looks to be one of the more problematic.

The point of the terrain bonuses seems to be that you are far more likely to worship some 'natural' thing near you, rather than something that's not - Ie, actually historical.

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Historically, it didn't make any practical difference to a civilisation's development whether they worshipped the hill next door or the forest two valleys over. The G&K development I'm least enthusiastic about is the bonuses granted for religion - it was strange enough that the Temple of Artemis gives bonuses based on that goddess's specialties rather than conceptually related to the building itself, without having a whole pantheon (literally) of gods taking an active role in their civilizations' affairs. Combined with the deliberate "not everyone can found a religion" mechanic, it seems designed to exacerbate the core problem with religion in Civ IV - the exclusivity problem which gives the civs that happen upon it first the edge. And as mentioned it adds a whole new area to balance the game around when it arguably still needs balancing around its existing policy trees.

oh, and +2 beakers/trade route is pretty minimal across a medium sized empire, compared to, say, a library in one tall city.

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A library in a tall city has a maintenance cost. Even a single jungle tile that you keep around for the same 2 science bonus needs to be worked and prevents you from developing it into something more productive. I think that would be less a go-to pantheon member if there was a significant trade-off with anything else, but you can have I think five pantheon members? There's not enough in this list to make the choices that difficult or varied.

huh? I'm pretty sure everyone can pick the same Pantheon beliefs. Only the Founder and Follower Beliefs are limited.

PhilBowles said:

A library in a tall city has a maintenance cost. Even a single jungle tile that you keep around for the same 2 science bonus needs to be worked and prevents you from developing it into something more productive. I think that would be less a go-to pantheon member if there was a significant trade-off with anything else, but you can have I think five pantheon members? There's not enough in this list to make the choices that difficult or varied.

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there is nothing more productive than a TP in a jungle tile (for a jungle type tile).

anyone can get a pantheon, but only a few get religions.

You left out the Follower Beliefs.

Asceticism: Shrines provide +1 Happiness in Cities with 3 followers
Cathedrals: Use Faith to purchase Cathedrals (+1 Faith, +3 Culture, +1 Happiness, Artist Specialist slot)
Choral Music: Temples provide +2 Culture in Cities with 5 followers
Divine Inspiration: Each World Wonder provides +2 Faith in city
Feed the World: Shrines and Temples provide +1 Food each in city
Guruship: +2 Production if city has a Specialist
Holy Warriors: Use Faith to purchase pre-Industrial land units
Liturgical Drama: Amphitheaters provide +1 Faith in cities with 3 followers
Monasteries: Use Faith to purchase Monasteries (+2 Faith, +2 Culture, more with Wine or Incense)
Mosques: Use Faith to purchase Mosques (+3 Faith, +2 Culture, +1 Happiness)
Peace Gardens: Gardens provide +2 Happiness in city
Religious Art: Hermitage provides +5 Culture in city
Religious Community: +1% Production for each follower (max +15%)
Swords into Plowshares: 15?% faster Growth rate for city if not at war

Huh. Odd that they made the mosque / cathedral split.