Ideologies are good for 3/4 Victory Types

Tsar NicholasII said:
But if you're military focused wouldn't you want to ensure you had the most advanced weapons, i.e. Science?
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True, but I meant science victory rather than raw science. Science is by a long way the most important resource in the game, non of the tenets should affect it directly as it would become the defacto one to pick. See rationalism.
 
Lord Olleus said:
The way I see it; it is likely that freedom will give boosts to tall empires, order to wide ones, and autocracy to heavily militarized ones. Or rather that the benefits are strongest for those empires. Now those bonuses can be on anything, but it makes sense to have them correlated with the goals of those empires.

As such, it makes sense that Autocracy doesnt help a science victory, because you would only chose it if you have a large military, in which case you're unlikely to be gunning for science anyway. Similarly Freedom shouldnt be good at domination; because tall empires aren't strong at it; and Order less good at cultural victories (this is more of a guess as we dont really know how to maximise tourism).
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I see it as this: The Germans had Von Braun and made him work on terror weapons. The US allowed him to work on a peaceful space program. That's why Autocracy is not good at science victories. They are obsessed with weapons.
 
Too many cross posts.

Tsar NicholasII said:
Yes, its based on your cultural influence on other civs also known as *blech* tourism
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I thought that was to flip the idelogies of whole civilizations, not to bring a city to your empire. Do you have a link/source?
 
Inhalaattori said:
Yeah I think that although in real life "Freedom civs" have been militaristic, you cant deny that Autocratic and Order Civs have been even more. Think about Soviet Union, North-Korea or National Socialist Germany. They put most of their resources to Army. When you compare Soviet Union and United States, Soviets spends much bigger part of their resources to their Army.

Foreign Legion played big part in defending French interests in countries that were conquered earlier, for example in Algeria. In Civ terms these were French territory.
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Certainly Autocracy (and arguably Order) will have better military bonuses but Freedom I think will have plenty of good Domination oriented bonuses. No matter how much we want to cover it up, democratic nations have been some of the biggest war mongers in history
 
Tsar NicholasII said:
I'm not convinced, Foreign Legions (even though not strictly French) will probably be primarily based on the French Foreign Legion, a unit which wasn't even based in France from its formation in the 1830's till the 1960's. Primarily an offensive unit.

But I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time this series has twisted history a little.
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Eagle Pursuit said:
The Tenet is called Volunteer Army. The unit is still called Foreign Legion. And this makes sense because the FL is made up of non-native volunteers wishing to earn citizenship.
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The tenet is called Volunteer Army which is part of an ideology and not a government owned organization, like the French Foreign Legion. It's supposed to represent those cases in history where a democracy was under attack by some autocratic force and this lead to volunteers from all over the world going there to defend said democracy because of their ideological beliefs, not out of any materialistic wishes like the French Foreign Legion.
 
Tsar NicholasII said:
But if you're military focused wouldn't you want to ensure you had the most advanced weapons, i.e. Science?
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Except a Science victory is oriented around the Space Race, rather than weapons technology (which is just the standard gameplay advantage of science in general). Hence they've chosen the Ideologies that are associated with the USA and USSR, the key players in the historical space race.

The 3/4 thing is just a question of balance. Clearly you could make a case for Autocracy helping with Science too, but that's not what the devs have chosen.
 
Art Grin said:
The tenet is called Volunteer Army which is part of an ideology and not a government owned organization, like the French Foreign Legion. It's supposed to represent those cases in history where a democracy was under attack by some autocratic force and this lead to volunteers from all over the world going there to defend said democracy because of their ideological beliefs, not out of any materialistic wishes like the French Foreign Legion.
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I think the tenant is referring more to the fact that Democratic nations are primarily composed of Volunteers rather than conscripts like in fascist or communist states. Not necessarily that said Democracy has to be attacked before then.

You bring up the Spanish Civil War but there were both Fascist and Communist foreign troops fighting in it none of them doing so to preserve the Spanish Republic so much as they were trying to stop Fascist aggression.
 
Diplomacy is negotiation and tact.

Autocracy is punching someone's lights out.

If you can win a diplomatic victory by being undiplomatic this game is sick.
 
Tsar NicholasII said:
I based Freedom's Domination boost off of the Volunteer Army tenant and the historical fact that Britain, France and America (Democratic Republics) have managed to conquer and maintain their conquests longer than any of the other ideologies
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Technically, the British and French weren't freedom ideologies at those time. In fact, after they adopted freedom ideology (industrialization) was when their empires fell apart.

We can agree that this is probably Freedom, because if one of the three ideologies is going to be the least good at war, it will be Freedom (look at anti-war movement):

Science
Culture
Diplomacy

For Autocracy, we already know it won't have science, because no autocracy had or has a working space program, and Ed said so:

Diplomacy
Culture
Domination

For Order, I remember on one of the previous interviews Ed mentioned that Order could something like a really good utopia that everyone would want to go to. This implies a tourism aspect used for Cutture victories:

Culture, Science, Diplomacy
or
Culture, Science, Domination

The only thing that seems off with those theories is that would mean every single ideology is set up to win the culture victory, which seems to break symmetry a bit. For full symmetry, Order would have:

Diplomacy, Science, Domination

So for me, Order is kind of up in the air.
 
Uberfrog said:
Except a Science victory is oriented around the Space Race, rather than weapons technology (which is just the standard gameplay advantage of science in general). Hence they've chosen the Ideologies that are associated with the USA and USSR, the key players in the historical space race.

The 3/4 thing is just a question of balance. Clearly you could make a case for Autocracy helping with Science too, but that's not what the devs have chosen.
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Maybe give Autocracy a Science boost when researching tech that give them a new military unit
 
MatThePhat said:
Technically, the British and French weren't freedom ideologies at those time. In fact, after they adopted freedom ideology (industrialization) was when their empires fell apart.

We can agree that this is probably Freedom, because if one of the three ideologies is going to be the least good at war, it will be Freedom (look at anti-war movement):

Science
Culture
Diplomacy

For Autocracy, we already know it won't have science, because no autocracy had or has a working space program, and Ed said so:

Diplomacy
Culture
Domination

For Order, I remember on one of the previous interviews Ed mentioned that Order could something like a really good utopia that everyone would want to go to. This implies a tourism aspect used for Cutture victories:

Culture, Science, Diplomacy
or
Culture, Science, Domination

The only thing that seems off with those theories is that would mean every single ideology is set up to win the culture victory, which seems to break symmetry a bit. For full symmetry, Order would have:

Diplomacy, Science, Domination

So for me, Order is kind of up in the air.
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I'd disagree on when they'd have those ideologies. When Britain was industrializing in the 19th Century it was at the height of its power, same with France.
 
Thanks for the clarification Tsar.

MatThePhat said:
...
For Order, I remember on one of the previous interviews Ed mentioned that Order could something like a really good utopia that everyone would want to go to. This implies a tourism aspect used for Cutture victories:

Culture, Science, Diplomacy
or
Culture, Science, Domination

The only thing that seems off with those theories is that would mean every single ideology is set up to win the culture victory, which seems to break symmetry a bit. For full symmetry, Order would have:

Diplomacy, Science, Domination

So for me, Order is kind of up in the air.
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I completely agree with you, if Ed hadn't said that already then Order as Diplomacy/Science/Domination would appear to make the most sense. I suppose it's possible that it was changed after he said it? Alternatively, because Culture is now so central to defending yourself and your cities from being flipped they decided that it would be too unbalancing to make any of the three ideologies perform poorly in Culture.
 
Veneke said:
..., because Culture is now so central to defending yourself and your cities from being flipped they decided that it would be too unbalancing to make any of the three ideologies perform poorly in Culture.
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That could make sense. Every ideology is so intricately tied to the idea of culture and a culture war that any of them missing out on it would be too detrimental from a gameplay perspective.

But which one do the commies lose out on, Diplomacy or Domination!? Both of them fit so well.

If forced to, I guess I'll probably posit that Order gets these bonuses:

Culture
Science
Diplomacy

The Soviets were a lot better at fostering and asserting their dominance over City States then outright conquering them.
 
I think Order as they've discussed it is about making your workers happy and instituting a dictatorship of the proletariat, with specific emphasis on happiness rather than tourism or culture. You can make other civilizations' workers unhappy in this way, but I don't think much has been said about Order and their path to cultural victory, if they have one. If Autocracy has a boost to diplomacy, I think they'll all have diplomacy, so I suspect Order will be Sci/Mil/Dip.
 
I think we should remember that there are at least 15 tenets in all ideologies.There still might be 1-2 tenets for a victory type they are not good at. Other victory types would have 4-5 tenets. I think that would make sense.
 
MatThePhat said:
That could make sense. Every ideology is so intricately tied to the idea of culture and a culture war that any of them missing out on it would be too detrimental from a gameplay perspective.

But which one do the commies lose out on, Diplomacy or Domination!? Both of them fit so well.

If forced to, I guess I'll probably posit that Order gets these bonuses:

Culture
Science
Diplomacy

The Soviets were a lot better at fostering and asserting their dominance over City States then outright conquering them.
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I think they'd lose out more on the Domination given that their known tenants are:

Iron Curtain: Free Courthouse in conquered cities
Double Agents: Spies double chance to catch enemy spies

While Iron Curtain is beautiful for conquest, its a tenant more in line with keeping your empire rather than expanding it as you said before. Same with the Double Agents tenant.

Culturally and Diplomatic/Conquest, Order seems to be more of a defensive ideology rather than offensive.
 
Nujabes said:
If Autocracy has a boost to diplomacy, I think they'll all have diplomacy...
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We are doing Autocracy all wrong! We all know these are the three it will actually have:

Domination
Domination
Domination
 
Inhalaattori said:
I think we should remember that there are at least 15 tenets in all ideologies.There still might be 1-2 tenets for a victory type they are not good at. Other victory types would have 4-5 tenets. I think that would make sense.
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I agree, none of the ideologies are going to be an automatic "I'm going for Domination so Freedoms out of the question" or "Space here I come, Fascism stand aside" Each one should offer you a bonus to each victory type but how you get said victory is based on your play style.
 
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