Corporation: The Power of Sushi

That's interesting. I can get great use out of Sushi in my most advanced cities that have all the necessary multipliers and/or the specialist slots, but not so much with the others. I might need to experiment around a bit...


As to State Property, I too think that over a longer time period corps might outperform it. I often use corps for the space race, but if I go for a conquest-oriented win in the Industrial Era, then getting the advantage sooner than later, and without having to spend ressources on spreading it, looks more attractive.


Pity about the reduced foreign spread, it looked like a nice way of financing the corps. I sat there waiting, thinking "any time now he's going to spread it and I'm going to be rich...".
 
I used to make a beeline to State Property and use it exclusively. It was so good, I couldn't imagine a better strategy. But one game I played, I began with a capital in the middle of dense forest and a couple of pig. The food was so good, I didn't need to chop the forest. Forest production was decent. Happiness in my capital was a concern; so there was no need to grow too fast. My workers were busy elsewhere anyway. My enemies had large stacks near my borders; I had minimal defense. I was sure the enemies would attack, which they did eventually, but not before I learned something I hadn't thought of before. Anyway I saved the forest for chopping if and when my enemies declared war, I could roll out mass weapons of the best sort my tech would allow.

Normally I wouldn't bother to gain Optics during my beeline to Communism because Astronomy is not as useful as Chemistry until Observatories and sea exploration have had time to at least break even on the tech cost. In this game I got Optics in a tech swap and was glad to get it because of whale and some borderline unhappy cities including my capital.

Two enemies declared war, and I started chopping. But the next turn I finally finished my research of Liberalism and came to a realization when it came time to choose my free tech. It is actually difficult for me to choose anything other than the most expensive tech when it is time to pick a free tech. Choosing a less expensive tech requires justifying how the less expensive will pay for itself to actually be more cost-effective, at least in terms of tech costs if nothing else.

In this game, I could choose Biology for my free tech instead of Communism. With a quick resolution to the wars, the National Park would be easy to build in my capital because production was high from the forests, especially under Bureaucracy. By preserving the forests, I could have lots of specialists, (like 16) in my capital quickly; health and happiness in the capital would be of no concern. Biology would give my farms a boost in food production instead of getting more food from workshops and watermills. In my beeline, I hadn't had time to build much of those two yet, mostly working farms and fishing boats for food and forest and mines for production. So actually, food production was better with Biology than with running State Property.

So I reasoned that Biology was a better choice. I reasoned that Communism wasn't too difficult to research with 16 scientists in my capital with full tech modifiers including research academy, Representation (thanks to Pyramids), and Caste System. By the way, I was playing an Indian game with fast workers and no anarchy. So I could change civics and terrain improvements somewhat on a whim, though I built minimal amounts of workers so I could get the wonders and bigger cities (making my beeline).

After choosing Biology, came the choice of the next research. I became conflicted over may aim to continue toward Communism or going an entirely different direction just before reaching the finish line of my research beeline. Well, I just couldn't justify taking Communism instead of Medicine. Big cities were already having some small problem with health; trade deals needed for health had just been broken with the new wars. Now with the increased food, to stop cities growing there were fewer tiles worked and more specialists. Workers were busy with preserving forest, so could not turn farms to workshops. I needed health; more food would only make more specialists or worse health problems. Already there was some nice terrain going un-worked. Environmentalism and hospitals would put an end to health problems for a long time. And the icing on the cake, to make Medicine irresistible, preserved forests generate +2 commerce under Environmentalism for +32 commerce +50% in capital with full tech modifiers of +225% for 156 additional beakers per turn.

Okay so long story short, after Medicine my spies informed me that an enemy had begun research on Economics. Being a State Property addict, I hadn't a great need for a Great Merchant, but it is better that I should get it rather than my enemy. So what to do with the Great Merchant? I needed food again. Ahh... the power of Sushi.

The culture bonus from corporations should not be ignored. It is a big deal. My country has expanded without war, gaining nice cities and resources. Presently, I am eyeing Uranium of which I have none and is needed for attack submarines to gain some good naval power in short order on the opposite side of the polar ice caps. The uranium is right next to a city that has just revolted and joined my nation. The Uranium will be mine without warring with my good friend and neighbor thanks to corporate culture.

I spammed SS, CC, CJ in all 34 of my cities, these corporations founded with Wall Street. Also on Wall Street is AC which, for now, I have spread to research cities that have nothing to produce but more AC executives. I thought I would send corporate executives to other countries; but with the culture and nation size I have, I cannot justify.

I run the UN. My neighbors' cities join my nation without firing a shot. I couldn't stick with Environmentalism for very long after becoming corporate since the 156 beakers from my capital pales in comparison with corporation payments. So I have Free Market. After modifiers, my Wall Street city gives +1300 gold from corporate buildings and CJ's little bonus. My corporate payments are -1700 gold after 78% inflation. I hadn't realized that inflation was the reason I wasn't seeing an enormous profit from what I was doing until I read this article.

Perhaps spamming isn't the absolute best way to go for SS and CC but spamming CJ has likely paid for over half the difference between corporate payments and Wall Street profits. And this game has precious metals and gems in very low supply. I get only +5 in each city from CJ before modifiers. Overall I pay out 6 gold per city in return for (before modifiers) 8 food, 9 production, and 103 culture in all of 34 cities. In addition there is 9 unmodified beakers, 1 more production, and 9 more culture in seven of those cities.

All of this can be greatly improved. Well, I cannot get much more key resources without war. However, I can build 10 or so more courthouses in newly acquired cities still working on factories to be powered by Three Gorges Dam. After that, I would be breaking even on gold for gold profits versus payments. The corporations actually do not really cost me much at present. The 200 or less gold I spend for all the goodies is less than 7% of my research per turn. My treasury breaks even at 80% research for almost 3000 beakers per turn.

Oh yes, I founded CM too. I put it out on a barren rock island where there is crab and fish. After getting Broadway, Rock and Roll, and Hollywood, CM is not doing too bad since I began getting back some of my grains and picked up some grain in trade. CM was at +2 food for a long time; now it is +6 food. It seems my opponents do not have much grain. So maybe I will send CM to my neighbors. CM doesn't have Wall Street; but with bank and such it could do something for me if only to slow other nations. It doesn't give culture, so that is good. But what happens when I acquire a city with CM? Well, then I have to pay for SS expansion I suppose. I got Cristo Redentor in my Great Engineer farm (may as well found MI as well). Cristo will help me in cutting costs. My spiritual leader already gives no anarchy. Cristo reduces the wait for changing civics.
 
Thank you SO much for this- I've spent way too much time trying to understand corporation mechanics. Also, thanks in advance for any victories I get using Sid's Sushi. One question though: what should one do if the AI (or another human in multiplayer) starts spreading a corporation in your cities? Is it worth it to keep them even if you don't get any gold from the HQ, or should you try to replace them with a corp of your own?
 
Thank you SO much for this- I've spent way too much time trying to understand corporation mechanics. Also, thanks in advance for any victories I get using Sid's Sushi. One question though: what should one do if the AI (or another human in multiplayer) starts spreading a corporation in your cities? Is it worth it to keep them even if you don't get any gold from the HQ, or should you try to replace them with a corp of your own?

Go to the city screen and hover over the icons, it should tell you both the benefit you're getting and the maintenance costs. Make a value judgment on that basis.
 
Great article! Thanks for a detailed analysis of the corporations. It helped me a lot during my game!
 
I was writing a pretty long post but then I realized something...

If you are running representation and emancipation, should your production cities replace all workshops with farms? The production output of an engineer vs a workshop is even, taking into account that a workshop will reduce the tile base yield by 1 food. So you may either have 2 farms (+4 food) which sustains +2 population, or 2 workshops (-2 food) which sustains -1 population but gives you +6 hammers. The +2 population will add 2 engineers, meaning +4 hammers. -1 population means one less engeineer, in total +4 hammers. But with representation, this is the difference between 3 extra specialists (+9 beakers) and the maintenance cost of 3 population.

So how much maintenance is 3 population (assuming a pretty big city, with courthouse), vs the +9 beakers (with all the multipliers)? Assume for the moment that health and happiness is not a concern, only maintenance.
 
Can anybody undetstand that questions?

All that comes to my mind, is, that there's an error in it. The output of Engineers compared to Workshops is not even. 2 Engineers give 4 :hammers: + 6 :science: with REP, two Workshops give +2 :hammers: , +2 :food: and -6 :science: , so Workshops are more production (food is also production) but enineers are more :science: and also give :gp: .

Replacing Workshops with Farms can be counter-productive, because Sushi often gives so much Food, that it's impossible to keep cities happy, which makes the Engineers slightly better imho. Still, workshops give more production, so should be used in Space Races.

Hth.
 
I am too lazy to read the whole thread. Espionage and Corps are the two things where I am largely clueless because they were new in BtS.
To me, it seems that corporation come too late for military wins to make much of a difference. Als "traditional" culture games can be basically decided before them (I have not tried Sushi which is supposed to be powerful. But one problem is that one needs a merchant whereas in culture games the cities run artists, so one probably will not get a merchant).

So the interesting cases seem to be other late game victories. I think I did one space victory on a crappy map starting in semi-isolation (after some pops contact for trades but no invasions) where I had no aluminum on the island, no chance to conquer it and built the alu corp to get it. But this was only Emperor and not a glorious game at all, due to poor map etc.

Usually I'd think that State property with the production boosts would be preferable for space race (at least for the end).

Another case I am wondering about (because I am toying around with the LHC games) is any victory (except maybe culture) after an isolated start. Especially if the land is not great and power balance (or sheer distances) too great for a feasible war with the AI (as someone wrote in the isolation guide: large scale invasions are logistical nightmares). How can a corporation be used to boost the "comeback" after spending until 800 or 1000 AD in isolation.

Another general problem seems to get or keep the right kind of great person for the corp
 
Corporations won't play much of a role, any really, in more normal games. But if you are going for space then they become an alternative because you need to research (almost) the whole tech tree anyway. Typically the GE for Mining is the toughest to get, because you can't run numberless engineers with Caste, and the spots are rather limited until the late game. So one way to increase the chance is to build Pyramids and maybe also the Hanging Gardens, and thereby doubling up on GE points, in addition to one engineer from the Forge.

The GM for Sushi or Cereal is easier to get. You can run as many merchants as the city can support during caste, and you can get a GM for free if you get first to Economics.

From what I hear, it depends a bit on the map whether SP or Corps is stronger. But SP is strong in any case, due to extra food, hammers and slashed maintenance costs. Corps take longer to pay back because you need to spread it to each city yourself, but the payback is immense once it kicks in. For instance +25: base hammers: and +25 :food: in every city is very powerful, and the latter allows all cities to grow big and run many specialists, typically boosted by Representation.

What is best probably depends a bit, but both options are very strong if you get that deep into the tech tree anyway. Personally I think they're a bit OP, as the game/economy is totally changed after SP and Corporations.
 
From what I glimpsed the Alu Corp is not the strongest anyway. As I was really clueless in that game, I had to pause and read up a little bit on the mechanics. It was necessary and I had a decent wall street city so I did not lose money. The main point there was of course getting Alu for all cities building SS parts. I actually did like this idea of resource conversion but apparently Standard Ethanol and Alu are otherwise much weaker than the other corps. And if one has fought an earlier war and expanded it's not likely to lack alu or oil.

When comparing with State property: This comes "for free" (even with a spy in the bargain, sometimes) and is quite easy to implement. No GP needed, no executives, the workers to convert some more tiles to workshops and watermills are already there. With corporations one might also need to build more courthouses because of corp maintenance and plan things moe carefully Whatever, there are certainly situations when they can be leveraged but I think I'll generally stick to SP...
 
I unfortunately don't see any arguments in your post, except that SP is easier to get, but that doesn't mean anything, if going for fastest finish date.

Maybe you want read Pangaeas post again, it actually was very good and also mentions which corps are the poweful ones and how powerful they are. That point somehow didn't even seem to come across to you.
 
It means a lot if going for the easiest, "foolproof" way to play. That's all I am saying. As I understood Pangea, his message is "it depends" on map and circumstances even in space race (i.e. the longest games) and that Corporations can be extremely powerful but it is in no way obvious if it will be better than SP. I really appreciate his honest statement that Corporations very often do not play a major role in the game.

As I am not a "powergamer" I do not really have the time and energy to try out and compare founding certain corporations (by keeping the necessary GPs around from earlier times), spread them around, vamp up the cities etc. with more straightforward play using SP only to find out, I finished 7 turns earlier one way or the other. Especially because I will certainly make more mistakes or suboptimal things when trying to use Corps because I am not familiar with them and this will confound the issue even more. Or I would have to try out corporations on lower level to familiarize myself with them, again this would confound things. (But before I try that, I cannot offer new arguments.)

If there are no hard and fast rules of thumb (depending on map, relations to AI etc.) for using corps, I'd rather go with SP. Obviously, resources are important, so I might try the Sushi on a Sea(food) map some day when I am not too lazy to read up the first 6 pages of this thread...
 
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