Cultural Victory (Immortal/Deity) - Tips?

So I've been trying to get a cultural victory on Immortal for a while. I've tried 3 or 4 games and have gotten pretty close one time (had an endless golden age as Persia and was about to start the Utopia Project when an AI went to space), but I can't seem to get over the hump. So with that said, what general tips do you guys have for winning a CV on the Immortal/Deity? I've gotten a science victory on Deity, so I feel like I should be able to get a cultural victory on Immortal.

Also, I'm attaching my current game if anyone would be awesome enough to look at it. I think this game may just be a really unlucky one - I feel like I'm playing my best culture game ever, but I've just had horrible luck. Siam took my awesome second-city location before I could snag it, then DoF'd me and backstabbed/rushed me soon after. So, with all of that said, what tips do you have?

Thanks for any help you can provide!

EDIT: Um, can anyone help me with uploading an attachment? I'm running Windows 8 and it seems as though program files, which is where saves usually are, is hidden in the attachments menu. Suggestions?

Hmm, thinking of making an Immortal Culture Guide soon but atm some tips:

Early game is very much like a science game. Get NC ASAP, beeline for Civil Service, then go either for Education or Chivalry depending on context. Tradition opening, ignore all early wonders unless your production is good (ie can build HG under 16 turns). Try your luck on Hanging Gardens or Stonehenge (if your faith is really dirt poor). Optimal number of cities seem to be 3 or 4. 4 is kind of chancy and dependent on how early you can ally CS and having enough good growth terrain for 4 tall cities.

Growth is key and can't be emphasized enough. You need it for science, for specialists, for production, for economy, for landmarks, and so on. That's why it's better to ignore most Ancient/Classic wonders except trying your luck on Hanging Gardens. Oracle usually doesn't get made until as late as T110 so you can just use a second city to make it (good for the 33% Reformation culture bonus).

RAs are also very important which often saves a lot of turns so you can reach Industrial era quicker, reach Radio/Plastics quicker. You want a good number of 3+. 2 is alright (I had one in my last Siam game and finished at T281).

Policy order is typically Tradition -> Piety to 10% culture reduction -> Patronage Aesthetics OR Liberty Representation -> Full Freedom -> Liberty finisher OR Patronage Scholastics -> the Rest.

Aside from obvious culture Wonders, it's good to get Machu Pichu, Hanging Gardens, Statue of Liberty, and Taj Mahal if possible. I'd ignore Terracotta Army since you generally don't want to waste time with Construction when you're beelining to Civil Service.

Religion-wise try to get one in for Cathedrals and 15% production/growth with Tithe + Religious Texts/Itinerant Preachers. Try your luck at Stonehenge but only with good production (under 15 turns) and getting lucked out of any faith-related pantheons.

Last general point, culture game doesn't mean you have to play defensively. As you're aware ranged units are king in G&K, so if you got DoWed once you get key ranged unit techs go on the offensive right away especially if the AI don't have it yet. I'm doing this in my current game and took 3 cities from Alex. The growth in early game gives me the infrastructure to buy 2-3 pikes + upgrade 4 CBs to Crossbowmen + trebuchet to take 20-40 defense cities. Puppets are well worth it for the gold it generates so you can rushbuy science/culture buildings and bribe CS.

Tachii said:

Hmm, thinking of making an Immortal Culture Guide soon but atm some tips:

Early game is very much like a science game. Get NC ASAP, beeline for Civil Service, then go either for Education or Chivalry depending on context. Tradition opening, ignore all early wonders unless your production is good (ie can build HG under 16 turns). Try your luck on Hanging Gardens or Stonehenge (if your faith is really dirt poor). Optimal number of cities seem to be 3 or 4. 4 is kind of chancy and dependent on how early you can ally CS and having enough good growth terrain for 4 tall cities.

Growth is key and can't be emphasized enough. You need it for science, for specialists, for production, for economy, for landmarks, and so on. That's why it's better to ignore most Ancient/Classic wonders except trying your luck on Hanging Gardens. Oracle usually doesn't get made until as late as T110 so you can just use a second city to make it (good for the 33% Reformation culture bonus).

RAs are also very important which often saves a lot of turns so you can reach Industrial era quicker, reach Radio/Plastics quicker. You want a good number of 3+. 2 is alright (I had one in my last Siam game and finished at T281).

Policy order is typically Tradition -> Piety to 10% culture reduction -> Patronage Aesthetics OR Liberty Representation -> Full Freedom -> Liberty finisher OR Patronage Scholastics -> the Rest.

Aside from obvious culture Wonders, it's good to get Machu Pichu, Hanging Gardens, Statue of Liberty, and Taj Mahal if possible. I'd ignore Terracotta Army since you generally don't want to waste time with Construction when you're beelining to Civil Service.

Religion-wise try to get one in for Cathedrals and 15% production/growth with Tithe + Religious Texts/Itinerant Preachers. Try your luck at Stonehenge but only with good production (under 15 turns) and getting lucked out of any faith-related pantheons.

Last general point, culture game doesn't mean you have to play defensively. As you're aware ranged units are king in G&K, so if you got DoWed once you get key ranged unit techs go on the offensive right away especially if the AI don't have it yet. I'm doing this in my current game and took 3 cities from Alex. The growth in early game gives me the infrastructure to buy 2-3 pikes + upgrade 4 CBs to Crossbowmen + trebuchet to take 20-40 defense cities. Puppets are well worth it for the gold it generates so you can rushbuy science/culture buildings and bribe CS.

Click to expand...

Thanks. I think one of my problems was that I was wonderspamming - although I managed to snag every one I went for, I was probably spending too much time on them. I was Egypt and managed to snag Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Temple of Artemis, and Petra. Is that too much? Also, for religious beliefs, I tried to get Cathedrals but it was gone, so I went with 15% growth, 1% production per follower, science from missionaries/prophets, and defender of the faith. I think those were pretty good, wouldn't you say? I got the save uploaded, so if you (or anyone else) could look at it I'd be very, very grateful. Thanks again for the feedback.

Also, anyone else have general/save-based tips?

Tachii said:

Hmm, thinking of making an Immortal Culture Guide soon but atm some tips:

Early game is very much like a science game. Get NC ASAP, beeline for Civil Service, then go either for Education or Chivalry depending on context. Tradition opening, ignore all early wonders unless your production is good (ie can build HG under 16 turns). Try your luck on Hanging Gardens or Stonehenge (if your faith is really dirt poor). Optimal number of cities seem to be 3 or 4. 4 is kind of chancy and dependent on how early you can ally CS and having enough good growth terrain for 4 tall cities.

Growth is key and can't be emphasized enough. You need it for science, for specialists, for production, for economy, for landmarks, and so on. That's why it's better to ignore most Ancient/Classic wonders except trying your luck on Hanging Gardens. Oracle usually doesn't get made until as late as T110 so you can just use a second city to make it (good for the 33% Reformation culture bonus).

RAs are also very important which often saves a lot of turns so you can reach Industrial era quicker, reach Radio/Plastics quicker. You want a good number of 3+. 2 is alright (I had one in my last Siam game and finished at T281).

Policy order is typically Tradition -> Piety to 10% culture reduction -> Patronage Aesthetics OR Liberty Representation -> Full Freedom -> Liberty finisher OR Patronage Scholastics -> the Rest.

Aside from obvious culture Wonders, it's good to get Machu Pichu, Hanging Gardens, Statue of Liberty, and Taj Mahal if possible. I'd ignore Terracotta Army since you generally don't want to waste time with Construction when you're beelining to Civil Service.

Religion-wise try to get one in for Cathedrals and 15% production/growth with Tithe + Religious Texts/Itinerant Preachers. Try your luck at Stonehenge but only with good production (under 15 turns) and getting lucked out of any faith-related pantheons.

Last general point, culture game doesn't mean you have to play defensively. As you're aware ranged units are king in G&K, so if you got DoWed once you get key ranged unit techs go on the offensive right away especially if the AI don't have it yet. I'm doing this in my current game and took 3 cities from Alex. The growth in early game gives me the infrastructure to buy 2-3 pikes + upgrade 4 CBs to Crossbowmen + trebuchet to take 20-40 defense cities. Puppets are well worth it for the gold it generates so you can rushbuy science/culture buildings and bribe CS.

Click to expand...

Note: Read the edit first.

All of this is pretty dead on but I play with these few differences and/or things to add:

- Optimal is 3 or 4, but I would argue you want to shoot for 4 if you have the terrain and growth capabilities on your map size and type. I have found 4 hits that sweet spot between keeping up with science and keeping policy costs low. 3 is a little more difficult for me.

- I agree the Hanging Gardens is absolutely amazing, but I think the must build priority early on - and throughout the entire tree for that matter - is Chichen Itza (longer golden ages). That, stacked with Freedom, means you are producing a very high amount of culture throughout the entire game to get you the victory before another civ gets theirs. It makes a significant difference. Basically, I shoot for the Chichen Itza and if I'm lucky enough to swipe the Oracle then I try to get that as well. Sistine Chapel is the other important wonder to beeline to, but you know that.

- I would argue Tradition full, Piety full, then Freedom full followed by what you need dependent on the game is just as effective as what Tachii said above. I've never tried his method so it could be more efficient, but mine has definitely worked for me just fine.

Edit: This is Immortal. Not Deity. I have never won a culture victory on deity and I'm new to Immortal which is why I would like feedback on my advice to Aaron90495. Even though I'm new to the higher difficulties I've had success with them with only certain civs but where - if anywhere - am I losing out on maximizing efficiency on what I said above?

Haha so basically I'm asking for advice on my advice

I guess full Piety would be more beneficial only in the case you can settle few great prophets very early, which is difficult. I like to emphasize early culture a little more and extend myself into Patronage (1-3 policies) before freedom. While this method is clearly a winner with OCC or 2CC there is another path, which can give an even better time when applied to 4 cities.

Tradition Opener -- Liberty (representation) -- Aristocracy -- Piety till reduced costs -- Patronage till Science bonus -- Full Freedom -- Legalism (broadcast towers) -- Finish Liberty & Tradition.

I've done a good share of immortal cultural games, but never engaged in Deity cultural. So, i think, while all this can work on Deity sometimes, it might be far more consistent to go all out science/military and win much later, while killing most of your rivals. I mean, in most Deity games i played there is absolutely no way (except archipelago) to get them crucial wonders - CI, Sistine, Alhambra, Leaning Tower.., unless there is a strong initial science bias.

Also, if you engage in multiple wars, there is a stronger chance to get wonders, since AIs will obviously spam units instead of competing with you for culture.

All great tips there. A few more

- amphiteathers are the most important building in a cultural game, because of the specialist spot. Beeline.
- oracle, chichen itza, and also LOUVRE. Christo and Sydney come a bit late, but can give you the final push. Tower is useless.
- I find that aesthetic from the patronage tree is very powerful for those game. Ten turns before reaching it "protect" ALL city states and 20 turns later you are friend with all of them. Insane capital growth, handy extra culture, fresh troops, some faith, some happy. Everything for zero gold.
- if you find that an AI is going to win before you, prepare a few A-bomb/nuke and destroy his top cities. This will slow it down but you'll have to face the consequences. If you are close it is worth it.

seancolorado said:

- I agree the Hanging Gardens is absolutely amazing, but I think the must build priority early on - and throughout the entire tree for that matter - is Chichen Itza (longer golden ages). That, stacked with Freedom, means you are producing a very high amount of culture throughout the entire game to get you the victory before another civ gets theirs. It makes a significant difference. Basically, I shoot for the Chichen Itza and if I'm lucky enough to swipe the Oracle then I try to get that as well. Sistine Chapel is the other important wonder to beeline to, but you know that.

- I would argue Tradition full, Piety full, then Freedom full followed by what you need dependent on the game is just as effective as what Tachii said above. I've never tried his method so it could be more efficient, but mine has definitely worked for me just fine.

Edit: This is Immortal. Not Deity. I have never won a culture victory on deity and I'm new to Immortal which is why I would like feedback on my advice to Aaron90495. Even though I'm new to the higher difficulties I've had success with them with only certain civs but where - if anywhere - am I losing out on maximizing efficiency on what I said above?

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Like Moriate have said CV on Diety is near impossible unless you plan to war with the runaways to prevent wonder stealing and science victories. On Immortal I haven't seen anyone finish a game subT250 and on Diety AIs usually win science victories around that period. So I'm pretty sure we're all giving Immortal tips here.

CI is definitely the priority here. But like I said if you can squeeze in a HG (with good production) then there's only everything to gain from it. HG will facilitate faster build of NC and CI. The free garden is great, too. In general I'd put Hanging Gardens as a very good optional wonder to have just because it offers everything you need (heck even a +1GA point). I say good production because I usually have enough turns to "waste" during this time to wait for my second city to build the library for NC.

Policy-wise full Piety isn't as useful since Holy Sites are inferior to Landmarks. I'm still disliking the fact that the finisher doesn't work together with freedom finisher (Holy Site would provide +6 gold/culture/+12 faith with Freedom finisher). And the cost reduction to faith doesn't apply to great persons which is another blow. I usually finish Piety as my last policy, ironically. However, Patronage Aesthetics means Friends status to every CS. If you're playing as Siam this is a MUST-GET before Freedom. It secures you with culture (+13CPT in Industrial era, like +20CPT for Siam) and everything else the CS can provide.

And the thing is, I can usually get to Aesthetics and hit Freedom right after. (Current game as Pacal I hit Industrial era at T173).

Tradition Opener -- Liberty (representation) -- Aristocracy -- Piety till reduced costs -- Patronage till Science bonus -- Full Freedom -- Legalism (broadcast towers) -- Finish Liberty & Tradition.

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It's another good path, yes. I just don't know how much better it is though. I mean, it's neglecting Aqueducts for at least 20+ turns or so (I only go for Engineering AFTER Education + Chivalry). And without that Tradition happiness policy I often find myself in the pits with just 3 cities. Representation is great for 4 cities ASAP so I guess that's a huge thing (preferably after CI too).

I'm assuming this works best if you get CS allies early to mitigate lack of growth and happiness issues.

Aaron90495 said:

Thanks. I think one of my problems was that I was wonderspamming - although I managed to snag every one I went for, I was probably spending too much time on them. I was Egypt and managed to snag Oracle, Hanging Gardens, Temple of Artemis, and Petra. Is that too much? Also, for religious beliefs, I tried to get Cathedrals but it was gone, so I went with 15% growth, 1% production per follower, science from missionaries/prophets, and defender of the faith. I think those were pretty good, wouldn't you say? I got the save uploaded, so if you (or anyone else) could look at it I'd be very, very grateful. Thanks again for the feedback.

Click to expand...

Sadly I have no tips on how to post your saved games (I can't seem to open most saved games anyways).

Wonder-spamming is problematic. Also there is nuances to the sequence of wonders. For example, Oracle on Immortal usually don't get made as late as T100 (unless Pacal is on the map, he tend to beeline for Theology and Philosophy is on the way). Thus there's no need for your capitol to spend time on it first when you can grow with it. Also, you have to make sure making these wonders doesn't prevent you from getting CI. The key (must-get for optimal victory) culture wonders is Oracle, CI, Alhambra, Sistine Chapel, Pisa, Taj Mahal/Porcelain Tower (whichever for your GE generated by Pisa), the Louvre, and Cristo. The others I've suggested in my first post are good optional wonders. That said, there's nothing inherently wrong with Petra/HG/ToA. I'd pass on ToA since you definitely could get NC quicker without it and it's not as great as HG.

Avatan said:

All great tips there. A few more

- amphiteathers are the most important building in a cultural game, because of the specialist spot. Beeline.

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Babylon gets there the fastest.

Two things:

1. I was looking at all the wonders and I was thinking - wouldn't Eiffel Tower be a good non-traditional wonder? Now, I haven't actually tried it myself but I noticed that the Eiffel Tower gives you +5 and an additional +1 for each 2 social policies.

Mandate of Heaven from Piety assigns excess happiness to social policy costs which is why it is potentially helpful. Has anybody tried this? I would think that it would make a big difference in securing the CV more quickly but how big of a difference, I can't say for sure.

2. The reason I always try to finish Freedom before opening up SP's from anywhere beyond Tradition and Piety is because I want to get to the 50% golden ages as soon as possible. In a perfect game, it would be ideal to unlock and finish Freedom as soon as I grab the 10% reduction from Piety. I've never actually tried opening up a SP from Patronage or Liberty first since what I've done has mostly worked but if it makes it easier then I will definitely have to try that

I always build Eiffel Tower while waiting for Statue of Liberty. It doesn't reaaally have any significance though. You get maybe 10-12 happiness when you build it but the +5-6 culture from Mandate of Heaven is miniscule at best. And at this point you should be popping GAs for endless Golden Ages so the happiness boost doesn't really help here either.