On Tech Diffusion and the Steamroll effect

While i agree with this, for the sake of the game, it really needs it. W/o tech diffusion, ill be in the digital age when my opponents (deity) are in medieval. The gap shouldn't be that big.

The gap shouldn't be that big, yes. But tech diffusion is not the answer. Making the AI play better is.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole business of increasing the tech diffusion is just a cop out of addressing the real issues, namely, making the AI actually challenging to defeat on deity WITHOUT adding even MORE handicaps.
 
The gap shouldn't be that big, yes. But tech diffusion is not the answer. Making the AI play better is.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole business of increasing the tech diffusion is just a cop out of addressing the real issues, namely, making the AI actually challenging to defeat on dirty WITHOUT adding even MORE handicaps.

That is not the issue. One or two AIs can keep up with me, but their efforts and mine will combine, not in concert, but combine nontheless to lock out almost any competition from other AIs. That is what I'm trying to address. And, none of this applies unless you selected Tech Diffusion as a gameoption when you started the game, so that is a solution as well for you.
 
The gap shouldn't be that big, yes. But tech diffusion is not the answer. Making the AI play better is.

As far as I'm concerned, this whole business of increasing the tech diffusion is just a cop out of addressing the real issues, namely, making the AI actually challenging to defeat on dirty WITHOUT adding even MORE handicaps.

Isn't a game where your hard efforts to achieve a tech dominance is nevertheless only going to keep you just ahead of your competitors more fun than one where as soon as you get ahead, you gain steam while your opponents slow down? Pretty soon you're going after your enemies with tanks and they've got archers and longbowmen. I'm a bit tired of that scenario but at the same time if I start off at a high enough game difficulty level, they sprint out of the gate and make it next to impossible to share in getting some of the first-to tech bonuses like religions.

This leads to either a fight the opponent with greatly inferior armies but superior strategy OR a fight the opponent without any challenge at all kind of scenario.

I'd love to see a game where it tends to go down the middle of the road. Tech diffusion can help there. And it works both ways... if they're ahead of you its going to help you to catch up too.

It's terrible game design to have opponents who fall behind have no possibility of catching up. It tends to be that way in Civ, like in Risk. The one who gains an edge has an increasingly less likely chance of losing it so no 'comeback' is really possible by any player that's fallen behind. It should be the opposite. That's exactly what tech diffusion helps to achieve. AND its rational. AND its an option so if you prefer to play a game that has no challenge once you've gotten ahead, go for it.
 
Lets Play Things that have actually happened to me the Home Game!!!

I was playing v22 or v23 and something nightmarish happened to me. I'm a Scientific Leader players... the entire point is to actually get a tech advantage. So to me this idea is to nerf me out of the game for giggles.

This was a prince level eternity game, contients, with city limits active. I was dominating my contient and just moving into monarchy and getting read to claim capitals and cities for culture types. Everything was great and my Sci leader and lucky goody huts meant this happened before turn 1000. Then a think of nightmares showed up. A sloop.

I barely got to blink when I dealt with a true lovecraftian nightmare. That nightmare thing... a Spiritual leader took over a contient. Before turn 1000 he had 45 cities and kept making more. I gibbered for a bit and then figured I could wait this abomination out. REVs would nuke him eventually. It wasn't like he was hostile.

That dillusion wouldn't last long. He started with the most incidious AI weapon of them all... he started donating my contact info to lower tech morons... literally 30+ of them were either gifted to me... or had my info gifted to them.

The lag was ever growing between turns. I simplely could not blow them off fast enough... even demanding they leave me alone didn't work as a too few turns later they started in again. Eventually I had to quit the gain to avoid 20 minute plus turns and the Spiritual Leader?

He was in the mid sixities in city count.
---

So I ask unto the Scientific Leader haters... If I'm in contact with 49 other leader that aren't minor civs... how fast does the worse tech level guy catch up to me if I have a 100 tech lead on him? 200?
 
I do recognize some of the realistic basis behind it. If every civ in the world except for you knows the wheel, some knowledge of it will unavoidably trickle out to you. Just as in real life with the rapid spread of copper, and then iron working.

What I don't approve of is speeding up the process based on how far ahead the tech leader is. If I already have computers, and everyone else is still in the renaissance, then why would their research of advanced sailing ships be any faster?

This is, as far as I see it, the basis of tech diffusion being discussed to be implemented. Based on "how far behind are you?", when it should be, "how many other civs already have this technology?".

You want the AI to not get so far behind? Then it is the player's job to move up a difficulty, and give them handicaps, but it is the developer's job to make them smarter, not just give them more handicaps.

That was a pm exchange.
 
Isn't a game where your hard efforts to achieve a tech dominance is nevertheless only going to keep you just ahead of your competitors more fun than one where as soon as you get ahead, you gain steam while your opponents slow down? Pretty soon you're going after your enemies with tanks and they've got archers and longbowmen. I'm a bit tired of that scenario but at the same time if I start off at a high enough game difficulty level, they sprint out of the gate and make it next to impossible to share in getting some of the first-to tech bonuses like religions.

This leads to either a fight the opponent with greatly inferior armies but superior strategy OR a fight the opponent without any challenge at all kind of scenario.

I'd love to see a game where it tends to go down the middle of the road. Tech diffusion can help there. And it works both ways... if they're ahead of you its going to help you to catch up too.

It's terrible game design to have opponents who fall behind have no possibility of catching up. It tends to be that way in Civ, like in Risk. The one who gains an edge has an increasingly less likely chance of losing it so no 'comeback' is really possible by any player that's fallen behind. It should be the opposite. That's exactly what tech diffusion helps to achieve. AND its rational. AND its an option so if you prefer to play a game that has no challenge once you've gotten ahead, go for it.

You bring up alot of points. Yes, it is tiresome, the lack of challenge at that point. But you know what? That's when you win the game, and move up a difficulty level. That's the very nature of difficulty levels.

But you know, I played on noble on BTS for the longest time, even though I would always get bored around the renaissance era because I was do far ahead. Why? Because I hated the fact that in order for the AI to be a challenge, I had to give them unfair advantages. While the principle was my reason for not playing higher levels, I can see your exasperation at the old "slowly slowly work your way up, never getting any of the cool stuff in the beginning." Hell, look at any deity LP. That's how they ALWAYS go. The person is last, or very near to last in points, then through superior strategy (usually military), they break through and dominate.

Yes, the AI having its massive benefits on deity is what causes this scenario, this...artificial difficulty. You would give it more? The original devs of Civ IV already failed in having implemented tech welfare and other handicaps as a "difficulty". It would be a shame to see this mod continue that trend.

By the way, have you tried flexible difficulty? It seems like it would address that ultimatum at the beginning of your post.

As for its realistic nature, see my above post.

As for it being an option, rest assured I am very, very aware of this. I am also aware that if this tech diffusion becomes the way you modded think you've "balanced" the game, then any future cries from me to address the challenge of the game WITHOUT the terrible principle of "whoever is behind gets tech welfare", be it to the AI, or heaven forbid, me, will be met with a dismissive, "Oh, stop complaining and just check tech diffusion."

It is the fact that focusing on tech diffusion as the means to "balance" the game (unfair welfare is never balance), prevents you all from focusing on true remedies.

You guy's holy grail would be to increase the AI's capabilities so that noble is the perfect difficulty in terms of challenge. Not too much, not too little, where the vast majority of players can start a game with no way of knowing who will come to win, and keep that suspense throughout the game, WITHOUT any artificial difficulty.

Real difficulty, not artificial, please.
 
Its not really an artificial 'fix' but a way to emulate reality and a way to help all civilizations, including yours, stay a bit closer to each other without eradicating the ability for any achieved scientific dominance to lose a definitive edge.

While stronger values on tech diffusion will make it easier for a civ to achieve a catchup it won't make it an automatic effect. Once the gap starts closing, the benefits being delivered by tech diffusion are reducing as well, so if you don't out-research your neighbors, you'll never get ahead of them. It just helps civs to not fall TOO far into the oblivion behind the tech leaders of the world, which is much like what has been taking place between nations throughout Earth's history.

Obviously, its not an attempt to fix lagging AI decision making processes. If the core AI is not ALSO addressed, the AI civs will never be truly competitive even with this effect in play. But its not going to be harmful to have this effect imo. What it DOES help is to aid those civs that got a raw deal somewhere along the line... lost half their nation, had a REALLY bad starting position, or perhaps they started as a Minor Civ from a Barbarian City, etc... Why have a civilization on the map that can't have a hope of overcoming its adversity to become a real factor in the game once again?

This is just one of MANY tools we have at our disposal to manipulate to get the game into a better balance. Its an elegant solution as well as its extremely rational.

It can also be used to your strategic advantage. Consider that if you allow other civs to develop their techs along certain lines they tend to go down while you travel the lesser walked paths, you can then return to researching what they've already discovered at much faster rates, even though you may be overall more scientifically advanced.

This same effect takes place when you attack a Civ that has researched down different paths. As you capture their cities you learn things about techs they have that you don't, taking drastic steps towards achieving the techs they know... doesn't mean you don't know techs they don't though so you're assimilating their achievements in this manner. And if its been well planned out, you can end up rocketing up the tech tree thanks to letting your AI neighbor do tons of research FOR you.

Tech diffusion is just a passive form of the same effect taking place by observations and trade discussions. It's not intended to make the AI more end-game competitive, nor could it achieve that goal, but to make those lagging AI's a bit more fun to fight.


And besides that... Koshling's AI advancements are beginning to have a really strong effect. I've seen some AI's doing extremely well lately. As he continues working on AI optimization, the whole picture could be brought into some really nice gameplay balance all in all. I have a feeling its going to be a long process there, interrupted by various side projects along the way. But as the mod continues development, the AI will not be forgotten in the process. I strongly believe we'll eventually have one of the best AIs ever seen in any mod. So just because we take steps like these to improve on balance in overall (and OPTIONAL!!!) ways, it does NOT mean the AI issues are being overlooked in lieu of a cheap answer.
 
I certainly hope as much.^


I still feel that basing it on "how far behind are you? Lots? Okay, well here's alot of bonus." is completely un-realistic, whereas basing it on "Wow, everyone has this tech except for you. Look at all the people you have to study from. It'll be easier to learn the wheel now, for sure.", is.

I'd probably even support playing with tech diffusion if it was based on the quantity of civs already having a tech, rather that a simple welfare system.
 
I certainly hope as much.^


I still feel that basing it on "how far behind are you? Lots? Okay, well here's alot of bonus." is completely un-realistic, whereas basing it on "Wow, everyone has this tech except for you. Look at all the people you have to study from. It'll be easier to learn the wheel now, for sure.", is.

I'd probably even support playing with tech diffusion if it was based on the quantity of civs already having a tech, rather that a simple welfare system.
It is NOT a simple welfare system. Currently it depends a lot on what Civs you know have that tech and if you have open borders with them and the like.

If you have the money, you can hire Koshling full time for a year and you will likely have an AI that is competetive even at noble but that is not a low hanging fruit and Koshling will work on AI improvements independent of what we change in tech diffusion.

In general, even with a very good AI, the steamroll effects are still a problem. There is the chance that a player gets that kind of advantage for every turn and the longer the game lasts that adds up. So either the positive feedback loops are weakened or things are added that make it harder for the leading player.
 
It is NOT a simple welfare system. Currently it depends a lot on what Civs you know have that tech and if you have open borders with them and the like.

If you have the money, you can hire Koshling full time for a year and you will likely have an AI that is competetive even at noble but that is not a low hanging fruit and Koshling will work on AI improvements independent of what we change in tech diffusion.

In general, even with a very good AI, the steamroll effects are still a problem. There is the chance that a player gets that kind of advantage for every turn and the longer the game lasts that adds up. So either the positive feedback loops are weakened or things are added that make it harder for the leading player.


Ahh, good to hear it wasn't as I thought it was. If only all traces of "you're" really far behind" were removed from the equation, I'd probably even play with it on.

And a third option for that last paragraph is "we can accept that steamrolls are an inevitable part of the nature of getting past the "event horizon" of some quantity of being ahead, and embrace them as the reward to be strived for, not some error that needs to be corrected."
 
And a third option for that last paragraph is "we can accept that steamrolls are an inevitable part of the nature of getting past the "event horizon" of some quantity of being ahead, and embrace them as the reward to be strived for, not some error that needs to be corrected."
We can't accept that it has such a high chance to happen before the late eras if we want the galactic era to have any meaning.
 
We can't accept that it has such a high chance to happen before the late eras if we want the galactic era to have any meaning.

Hm... well that is a quandary, yes. However, the ends don't justify the means here, namely, fixing the issue you raised by unfairly giving civs that are behind a bonus to their research just to give them a fighting chance in those later eras.

Personally, I'd rather have a meaningless galactic era due to a steamroll than one in which I know the other AI's are only competitive because of tech diffusion. Now THAT would truly be meaningless.

Granted, this whole discussion is really premature. Who's to say if the AI won't get good enough to make this whole issue moot?

I'll say it before, and yet again: If you want to minimize the occurance of steamrolls, then make the AI play better. Any welfare given (I do know that tech diffusion is not purely welfare, but it contains significant elements of it) to achieve that end instead, is not worth sacrificing the principle of fairness.

I'd rather have an almost certainty of a steamroll by the galactic era, than not, only because of the fact that the AI got there only through handicaps. And I know I'm not the only one.

So long as tech diffusion is an option, and significant work on the AI is continuing to be done, I'm fine. I'm just unsettled by the prevailing notion here that's it's okay to give the AI (or anyone for that matter. What a hollow victory it would be to eke out a win, when you know if it wasn't for tech diffusion giving you an unfair bonus, you would have been gone a long time ago) handicaps as a supplement to real balancing work.
 
Its not a handicap. Its necessary to keep the game progress in balance. Even if all players are human, the one(s) ahead gains unfair advantages. Tech diffusion merely helps to counter those UNFAIR advantages.
 
Its not a handicap. Its necessary to keep the game progress in balance. Even if all players are human, the one(s) ahead gains unfair advantages. Tech diffusion merely helps to counter those UNFAIR advantages.

What? Truly? Come now. The advantage gained from one's hard work at playing well is being ahead in the tech race. Whatever advantage gained is the result of playing well, and if that is considered unfair, well...that's stupid, frankly. Tech diffusion is indeed a handicap. It is the very definition of such. It is "You are behind. Here, we shall make it so you are required to gain less tech points to gain a technology than what other, better players have been required. There, now you have a fighting chance."

The very definition of a handicap.

You want the AI to not fall so behind? Don't take the lower ground and give them handicaps. Make them play better, so handicaps aren't needed.
 
I'm talking about the following:
  • First to get to tech gets a free tech
  • First to get to tech gets a free specialist
  • First to get to tech gets first access to building wonders opened up by that tech
  • Once tech lead is established, military superiority follows
Between all those, no civilization that got a poor starting location, started late as a result of emerging from barbarism, or has been even somewhat injured by a war (which they may not have had any choice but to fight), and so many other factors that is OUT of any leader's control, has no hope once one civilization takes even a marginal lead. This is just bad game design from go and requires, begs, demands a counterbalance. Call it a handicap, or call it a rationally founded means of fixing a design that includes far too much 'positive feedback' in its core basis.

Fair fights are more fun.
 
I'm talking about the following:
  • First to get to tech gets a free tech
  • First to get to tech gets a free specialist
  • First to get to tech gets first access to building wonders opened up by that tech
  • Once tech lead is established, military superiority follows
Between all those, no civilization that got a poor starting location, started late as a result of emerging from barbarism, or has been even somewhat injured by a war (which they may not have had any choice but to fight), and so many other factors that is OUT of any leader's control, has no hope once one civilization takes even a marginal lead. This is just bad game design from go and requires, begs, demands a counterbalance. Call it a handicap, or call it a rationally founded means of fixing a design that includes far too much 'positive feedback' in its core basis.

Fair fights are more fun.

Fair fights are more fun. And giving bonuses to people that are behind, JUST because they are behind, is the antithesis of fair. I had to work my ass off to get enough science to tech this quickly. Now, these people who've been spamming units, and thusly falling behind in the tech race, get bonuses for free? Maybe they should've played smarter.

You don't want to get left behind in the race? Play well. No mercy for the weak. You got a bad starting spot? Play even better. If you can't meet the challenge, better luck next time.

And what you've said is an exaggeration. No situation is hopeless. Play well enough, and any obstacle can, can indeed be overcome. Deity rests on this fact.

Every civ game, in every generation, on every difficulty is underscored by the tech race. It is that which all else revolves around. It is the ultimate focus, perhaps aside only from seeing the words "You win!!", to advance up that tree, to snatch things up before others can get to them, to plan your path, to take risks, to do the unexpected, to play strategically. You're treating that like it's some error. Is that truly how you feel?

If you want less postive feedback, then take out the cool stuff teching up gets you. Take out the free techs, take out the wonders, and the religions. That will indeed remove alot of positive feedback. But for god's sake, don't give civs FREE TECH POINTS FOR NOTHING.
 
If you want less postive feedback, then take out the cool stuff teching up gets you. Take out the free techs, take out the wonders, and the religions. That will indeed remove alot of positive feedback.
Well... that's a game option project on my long term list too.
 
Well... that's a game option project on my long term list too.

Wha...? Really? You're going to take OUT content? I thought that was against this game's mantra. Hydro's going to have a fit...


Wasn't the reason Hydro got so frustrated with Aforess because he took out so much content that had been put into AND?

Edit: Ohh...you said "option". Well...that's an interesting option, for sure.


Thank god for options...
 
Well, just taking out the first-to bonuses like free techs and free specialists (which combines uniquely with Divine Prophets...)

Ooh, I see. Pushing your own agenda, eh? Nurturing the baby, as it were? Haha, well...

In all seriousness, the first-to bonuses are one of the highlights to civ, for me. Nothing beats the adrenaline as you're racing to an awesome bonus, and you're desperately pulling out all the stops to get to it. It's like a third of the fun of the whole game...
 
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