Naval Units Rework Project

Reviewing the tech tree further, I think I can fit the Droid Ships in starting from Artificial Intelligence and DNA Computing. There would be a few new weapon systems and defense systems that could be introduced into this region. There's only two real issues I have in this sector of the tech tree with doing this:
1) Orbital Flight should predate when these ships begin. If we move Orbital Flight back one space on the x layer it would be fine.
2) Antigrav takes place in the same layer - not only is this already threatening to make Orbital Flight obsolete, it's kinda defeating the purpose of separating the Droid Ships from an Anti-Grav ship layer. Now... if we envision EARLY anti-grav as being useful with the constrictions that have already been discussed and introduce a more powerful form of anti-gravity later in the Transhuman era (nearing the end) we could navigate this issue.

3)It would be nice to have another Air Unit layer to accompany the Droid ships and a 'Lesser Anti-Gravity' would be cool to help enable that. We'd be talking about another tech for flight beyond Orbital Flight of course but it seems right that there would be.

So we could leave Anti-grav where it's at but we could make it more of a material base type Anti-grav such as suggested earlier regarding developed mono-atomic gold applications. It would be something akin to simply levitation and wouldn't be greatly useful for navies as it would simply take too much energy and come with other chemistry complications for levitating things of such size. The second phase would be an electromagnetic field application and would be a thrust system of its own that would also push aside water like air so would be applicable for the Anti-Grav ship layer but would not be comparable to the Gravity Drive ships. It would be coming from a new tech very late in the Transhuman era. I'll try to figure out where it could rightfully unlock.

New Weapon systems would be the Frost Beams as mentioned earlier (they'd fall into this region) and Magnetic Manipulation weaponry (at Hypermagnetics) which can tear apart metallic foes within reach. (Think Magneto.) Also Technological Telepathic weaponry (at Binary Semiotics) that can mindblast biological units on opposing ships (to disable the operators or even take control). As well there could be something like nano-feeder sprays (such as the weapon shown in use in the GI Joe movie) (at Smart Dust) that would 'eat' the enemy ships almost regardless of the hull (but would be a launched weapon rather than a Nanite Cloud that operates with its own swarm intelligence).

New Shielding systems would include a suspended Crystal structure around the ship to deflect laser and ion beams and can be effective against kinetic weaponry as well. Cloaking is right in here so it would be already taking advantage of Optical Shields as well.

This layer would span from x106-x111 (unless I can successfully shift cryogenics and Frost Beam weaponry back one or two layers).

The next layer would be an Anti-Grav ship layer and I believe AI would still, even more than ever, be dominant in warfare operations (though there may be some metahuman developments that may eventually play a role in here.) It just would have gone beyond the constraint of Biomimetic design to something improved since water is no longer really a barrier to strategic warfare. Many of the same prereqs may be maintained but it will require a bit of a redesign of the Droid/Anti-Grav/Gravity Drive layers some.

This wouldn't be a problem so long as we're going to be happy with it once it's completed.

EDIT: Initial tech tree restructuring shows it won't have to be all that dramatic to get this to work. I'm quite liking this idea actually. One thing to mention: It changes the current Antigravity tech to 'Levitation' and adds an Anti-Gravity tech later in the tree that requires Shielding (further developments of electromagnetic fields here lead to actual Anti-Gravity as we see witnessed in UFO sightings.) Some of what's on Anti-grav now can stay in that position (levitation vehicles for example) while other aspects may be better to move to the later tech.

I've also found some spots for further 'air unit' developments that can parallel the naval ones (Weightless Flight and Frictionless Flight.) Shaping up to be interesting and should address your concerns. I may need to restructure the y scale positioning of some of the techs in this era to get the tree to look a bit more organized but it shouldn't have to be too drastic.

Footnote: I do plan to fully make all the new techs being introduced here, quotes and all. And handle the xml adjustments to existing techs. Please do not seek to object to concepts on the grounds of minimizing efforts as I do plan to take on any burden from all this since it's my planning that brings them about.


Anyhow, I'll restructure the plan and it might take a while so I'll be back in blackout mode for a while.
 
Part of this design includes the concept that just before the Galactic Age really gets underway, a common event will be that the Artificial Intelligences rebel and form their own civ, taking over almost all AI based units as their own and suddenly turning them on their human masters.

Shouldn't this be one of many possible futures? I see there could be a cyborg type of society where humans become more robotic and robots become more human. Where there is a blurred line between organic and artificial. Where there would not be "them vs us" because "them" and "us" are hard to distinguish from each other.

Note this is different from the "borg" :borg: from Star Trek. But more of a melting pot of technology and cultures.

Out of curiosity, is this coming from an agreement with Faustmouse's feedback where he felt these designs were basically stupid to begin with?

No. In fact I forgot he even said that. I just feel that basically having sea creatures as vehicles is not the optimal use of them. Those species were adapted to much different roles than we have them be. If we were to take cues from nature and have naval vehicles that mimicked nature I think they would look much different. A merging of adaptions and technology. In a sense it would be a craft with adaptions fitting naval warfare needs. Note I am coming from someone who loves biology and evolution, so its not like I am saying "sea turtle ships are stupid". Just maybe not the best form for their purpose.

On a related note here are a series of robotic animals someone made up. They were mainly used as anti-Poaching machines.

- Anti-Poaching Rhino
- Manta Rescue Drone
- Condor Fire Rescue UAV
- Wildfire Rescue Bear
- Mountain Rescue Eagle
- Anti-Poaching Lion
- Escort Whales
- Anti-Pirate Orcas
- Anti-Poaching Elephant
- Anti-Poaching water Buffalo with UAV Oxpeckers
- Emergency Rescue Vulture

As you can see from these they are more like support units than the main naval units.

We COULD rework things so that the droid ships come much earlier and we can squeeze in another layer for Anti-grav ships since you feel they would be pertinent underwater as well. It would just require another month or so of design restructuring which I'm sure we'll debate endlessly over. Nevertheless, if it's important to make these layers distinct, its certainly possible.

Maybe. Note that I am pretty much fine with everything up to the Next War stuff. After that it where we may want some rethinking.

The main difference here as far as I can tell is that it won't superheat the channels which is the main reason there's a difference between Railguns and Rapid Railguns to begin with so it would not be inappropriate to rename the Rapid Railgun to a Coilgun. (And the Handheld Railgun to a Handheld Coilgun.)

Oh I was thinking the opposite. Like the Coil Gun would be the Matchlock lvl of tech vs a Handheld Coil Gun would be a Rifle lvl. Thus the Coil Gun could be the first type of hand held railgun.
 
1) Orbital Flight should predate when these ships begin. If we move Orbital Flight back one space on the x layer it would be fine.

That gets tricky because Skyroads (x105) leads to Orbital Flight (x106). And if Skyroads was moved back then it would mess up Supersonic Rails (x104). And if Supersonic Rails was moved back then it would mess up Wireless Electricity (X103). Past that it just messes up exponentially more techs.

2) Antigrav takes place in the same layer - not only is this already threatening to make Orbital Flight obsolete, it's kinda defeating the purpose of separating the Droid Ships from an Anti-Grav ship layer. Now... if we envision EARLY anti-grav as being useful with the constrictions that have already been discussed and introduce a more powerful form of anti-gravity later in the Transhuman era (nearing the end) we could navigate this issue.

That's what I am getting at. I think Antigrav and Droid could exist at the same time. I also think perhaps some of the sea creature robots could come much earlier at Droids (x100) tech. They would not have to outright replace humans, but work as support for humans like the pictures in my last post.

Note this would place them around Invisible or Shockwave era stuff.

So we could leave Anti-grav where it's at but we could make it more of a material base type Anti-grav such as suggested earlier regarding developed mono-atomic gold applications. It would be something akin to simply levitation and wouldn't be greatly useful for navies as it would simply take too much energy and come with other chemistry complications for levitating things of such size. The second phase would be an electromagnetic field application and would be a thrust system of its own that would also push aside water like air so would be applicable for the Anti-Grav ship layer but would not be comparable to the Gravity Drive ships. It would be coming from a new tech very late in the Transhuman era. I'll try to figure out where it could rightfully unlock.

Well the less you chnage the techs in the Transhuman Era the better because MrAzure spend a lot of time planning an interlinked web of buildings and resources for them (which I reviewed and Fausmouse coded). Note that adding techs is much easier than removing or moving them.

New Weapon systems would be the Frost Beams as mentioned earlier (they'd fall into this region) and Magnetic Manipulation weaponry (at Hypermagnetics) which can tear apart metallic foes within reach. (Think Magneto.) Also Technological Telepathic weaponry (at Binary Semiotics) that can mindblast biological units on opposing ships (to disable the operators or even take control). As well there could be something like nano-feeder sprays (such as the weapon shown in use in the GI Joe movie) (at Smart Dust) that would 'eat' the enemy ships almost regardless of the hull (but would be a launched weapon rather than a Nanite Cloud that operates with its own swarm intelligence).

Well nano clouds are scary. It can basically dismantle and even create stuff. Just getting past that level of tech is going to be crazy.

New Shielding systems would include a suspended Crystal structure around the ship to deflect laser and ion beams and can be effective against kinetic weaponry as well. Cloaking is right in here so it would be already taking advantage of Optical Shields as well.

Yeah some crazy stuff there to think about.

This layer would span from x106-x111 (unless I can successfully shift cryogenics and Frost Beam weaponry back one or two layers).

How far back for Cryogenics? Homo Superior (x109) basically locks it in that slot.

EDIT: Initial tech tree restructuring shows it won't have to be all that dramatic to get this to work. I'm quite liking this idea actually. One thing to mention: It changes the current Antigravity tech to 'Levitation' and adds an Anti-Gravity tech later in the tree that requires Shielding (further developments of electromagnetic fields here lead to actual Anti-Gravity as we see witnessed in UFO sightings.) Some of what's on Anti-grav now can stay in that position (levitation vehicles for example) while other aspects may be better to move to the later tech.

I know the Lev Tank and Lev Artillery are already at this tech. Should the Antigrav Factory and Antigrav Car Dealership be renamed to Levitation Generator Factory and Lev Car Dealership?

Footnote: I do plan to fully make all the new techs being introduced here, quotes and all. And handle the xml adjustments to existing techs. Please do not seek to object to concepts on the grounds of minimizing efforts as I do plan to take on any burden from all this since it's my planning that brings them about.

My objections are not in the labor to add techs, but not messing up buildings and/or resources and sometimes even units or promotions.

We should look back to some of MrAzure's posts and see how he was envisioning things too. I can't help to think he already solved many issues we were discussing.

Anyhow, I'll restructure the plan and it might take a while so I'll be back in blackout mode for a while.

I hope you read this. Especially the idea of the "companion" droids to help out other units.
 
No. In fact I forgot he even said that. I just feel that basically having sea creatures as vehicles is not the optimal use of them. Those species were adapted to much different roles than we have them be. If we were to take cues from nature and have naval vehicles that mimicked nature I think they would look much different. A merging of adaptions and technology. In a sense it would be a craft with adaptions fitting naval warfare needs. Note I am coming from someone who loves biology and evolution, so its not like I am saying "sea turtle ships are stupid". Just maybe not the best form for their purpose.

That were basically the same arguments I used. And I also have a biology background ;)
These anti-poaching stuff looks cool, but i wonder if it fits in C2C...
 
Shouldn't this be one of many possible futures? I see there could be a cyborg type of society where humans become more robotic and robots become more human. Where there is a blurred line between organic and artificial. Where there would not be "them vs us" because "them" and "us" are hard to distinguish from each other.
Thus why it's an event that may or may not enter the game. After 'the split' there would be a period of time where other AI that has not been absorbed into the enemy is less trusted and less 'in favor' and often goes unemployed when it would be useful. But humans would eventually figure out how to 'debug' their new systems and keep the problem from taking place again if they can survive it. At that point they'd start moving back towards the future you see. Either way, it's likely that the only way it's really 'debugged' to begin with is by Human minds and essences being MORE fully absorbed into the machine rather than less.

If that makes any sense.

No. In fact I forgot he even said that. I just feel that basically having sea creatures as vehicles is not the optimal use of them. Those species were adapted to much different roles than we have them be. If we were to take cues from nature and have naval vehicles that mimicked nature I think they would look much different. A merging of adaptions and technology. In a sense it would be a craft with adaptions fitting naval warfare needs. Note I am coming from someone who loves biology and evolution, so its not like I am saying "sea turtle ships are stupid". Just maybe not the best form for their purpose.
If you recall, there are a few points I've made on the original intention of these units here:
1) They are supposed to be inspired by the original forms, not even veiled attempts to be replicas. I found it a little disappointing that they can't be made to look more like robotic ships by using the original models and re-skinning them but I figured for now it's ok.

2) They replica nature to provide a mechanical mechanism for propulsion that can enable a deeper stealth mode where water is not thrust backwards with an oscillating pulse that can be heard for miles thus keeps them sonically undifferentiable from other aquatic animal life. And with all the other stealth technologies in use at the time they can go black to sonar as well. The speed and agility of animals in water makes them unparalleled in underwater combat.

Try to imagine navigating a modern Sub. Now try to imagine navigating one that can bend and flex and even use that bending and flexing to its advantage in generating ADDITIONAL thrust.

3) They're enormous by comparison to the actual creatures. Visually, the form adds a psychological intimidation factor in use against humans as our fear of these creatures and their mastery of an environment that we are by comparison vulnerable within sends the strong suggestion to the subconscious of enemy human crews that we are completely at their mercy.

If you recall, I'd not planned to include all the Droid ships we have at this point. Sea Turtles were not envisioned at first. Then again, such an allowance made for such a strong protective hull around the cargo that could probably be separated from the rest of the ship and left to float on solid lockdown until recovered safely could be a useful feature... Nature has a lot of these kinds of subtle suggestions for improvements to our own designs. I'm not saying it can't be improved even further, just that it would seem to me that the AIs would catch on to ways nature has already compensated for problems we've not yet begun to recognize and would find that to be the 'best examples' of how to do so until they spend much more time in analysis and come up with that 'better' we're talking about.

That gets tricky because Skyroads (x105) leads to Orbital Flight (x106). And if Skyroads was moved back then it would mess up Supersonic Rails (x104). And if Supersonic Rails was moved back then it would mess up Wireless Electricity (X103). Past that it just messes up exponentially more techs.
I can leave it where it is... It might be in the same x layer as the unlocking tech for the first droid ships but it would only be for the Carrier and it would leave 4 x layers to the next carrier type. Still seems a bit far into the tech tree considering it's been theorized that as a top secret program we already HAVE Aurora Orbital Fighters. At least the plans for them have been drawn up.


That's what I am getting at. I think Antigrav and Droid could exist at the same time. I also think perhaps some of the sea creature robots could come much earlier at Droids (x100) tech. They would not have to outright replace humans, but work as support for humans like the pictures in my last post.
The same argument could be made for the unmanned ship layer from earlier. The problem, and its a very BIG problem, that I have with this approach is that if we approach the AI ship layers in a manner that makes them concurrent, nothing from a game angle justifies them at all. Civ doesn't care about the lives of soldiers. It doesn't recognize any value in trying to keep human life loss to a minimum and there is no way to reflect this without food upkeep mechanisms I've previously suggested (and had turned down because it would not add anything to the game). So without making the strengths and abilities differ we have nothing to motivate (or even demotivate) players to adopt AI ships over Human crewed ones. There's NOT enough effect ranges to differ the strengths and weaknesses of the differing crafts enough to make it worthwhile to have both ships run technologically concurrent - not at the moment anyhow.

There is no unfulfilled role between all the various ships so there's not a cause for ships that support unless you want to make them too complex to strategically grasp. To add that layer will mean that we'd be taking the Rock-Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock set of naval interactions we already have and exponentially making it yet more complex where it begins to breakdown and players stop trying to think about it and start just building the 'strongest' things they can find. So really, to make a naval set pertinent you MUST make it better than its predecessor.

Deeper into combat mod development this may change as more capability to setup strengths and weaknesses for human vs AI units. At this time we'd want to make a divide and have two concurrent sets (even if offset a bit from each other like bricks in their tech access paths) to EACH layer and past unmanned, those ships that upgraded to unmanned are stuck along an AI route while those that did not may proceed down a Human route (and perhaps there can be cyborg junction points.)

However... with this plan as its shaping up now I can try to reduce the degree of improvement between the Shockwave, Droid and Anti-Grav layers and it looks like there will be a degree of overlap on the tech trees so just as one is finishing, a type of ship of the other may already be upgrading. Therefore, you'll get a shuffling from one to another so you will indeed see the Droid ships running concurrently with both Shockwave and Anti-Grav ships. This can satisfy what you're after I hope and will also make things a little more interesting strategically at times. This will keep it closer to the brick method of unlocking layers of upgrades.


Well the less you chnage the techs in the Transhuman Era the better because MrAzure spend a lot of time planning an interlinked web of buildings and resources for them (which I reviewed and Fausmouse coded). Note that adding techs is much easier than removing or moving them.
I prefer to keep things as untampered with as possible yes. Mostly due to the complexity that already exists.



How far back for Cryogenics? Homo Superior (x109) basically locks it in that slot.
Again, since we're actually seeking overlap at this point I shouldn't have to move this now.



I know the Lev Tank and Lev Artillery are already at this tech. Should the Antigrav Factory and Antigrav Car Dealership be renamed to Levitation Generator Factory and Lev Car Dealership?
Well... yeah. I think so.



That were basically the same arguments I used. And I also have a biology background ;)
These anti-poaching stuff looks cool, but i wonder if it fits in C2C...
Yeah, probably not. I re-addressed some of your arguments above.
 
I can leave it where it is... It might be in the same x layer as the unlocking tech for the first droid ships but it would only be for the Carrier and it would leave 4 x layers to the next carrier type. Still seems a bit far into the tech tree considering it's been theorized that as a top secret program we already HAVE Aurora Orbital Fighters. At least the plans for them have been drawn up.

Well of course top secret projects are going to be ahead of the curve. But when we have techs we assume this is mainstream uses.
The same argument could be made for the unmanned ship layer from earlier. The problem, and its a very BIG problem, that I have with this approach is that if we approach the AI ship layers in a manner that makes them concurrent, nothing from a game angle justifies them at all. Civ doesn't care about the lives of soldiers. It doesn't recognize any value in trying to keep human life loss to a minimum and there is no way to reflect this without food upkeep mechanisms I've previously suggested (and had turned down because it would not add anything to the game). So without making the strengths and abilities differ we have nothing to motivate (or even demotivate) players to adopt AI ships over Human crewed ones. There's NOT enough effect ranges to differ the strengths and weaknesses of the differing crafts enough to make it worthwhile to have both ships run technologically concurrent - not at the moment anyhow.

Well right now we have Android/Droid infantry and Clone/Super Human Infantry. I don't see why we cannot also have Unmanned sea vehicles too. We can make each their their own strengths and weaknesses such as Unamed/Droids are weaker to EMP and Hacking while Manned can be weaker to Biological and Physiological attacks. Note both would have overlaps but it could bring another layer of warfare to the table. Especially when it comes to civics such as picking Unmanned Warfare Civic could give a faster production Unmanned units.

I prefer to keep things as untampered with as possible yes. Mostly due to the complexity that already exists.

Good.
 
Well right now we have Android/Droid infantry and Clone/Super Human Infantry. I don't see why we cannot also have Unmanned sea vehicles too. We can make each their their own strengths and weaknesses such as Unamed/Droids are weaker to EMP and Hacking while Manned can be weaker to Biological and Physiological attacks. Note both would have overlaps but it could bring another layer of warfare to the table. Especially when it comes to civics such as picking Unmanned Warfare Civic could give a faster production Unmanned units.
I suspected you might say this. To which I'd have to say this means we should split up upgrade chains at the Unmanned stage and have an AI stage in between and probably overlapping each Human crew ship layer and make them NOT interchangeable in terms of upgrades. Once a ship goes one way it must stay that way - perhaps with cyborg ships forming a bridge back from AI to Human (I see Human as eventually being supreme as the biological computer with a soul has much much greater potential once unlocked.)

I believe you're reflecting back at me a point I made regarding land units a long time back so I was mentally preparing for this. It means a LOT more work but it could certainly make a much more interesting scenario indeed.


I'm having a little difficulty with damage and defense types. It's going to require I jump ahead on Combat Mod plans and make at least a part of it not optional. So this is GOING to inspire a major coding project to play this right I think. Looks like I'll be dug in here for a while.
 
Ok, so I figured I should share the concepts here before moving forward.

Next War (Unmanned): Lies between Modern and Invisible Human crewed ship groups.
x92-x96
Unmanned Destroyer
Unmanned Corvette
Unmanned Cruiser
Naval Bot Patrol
Railgun Battleship
Operations Control Carrier
Unmanned Submarine
Unmanned Pirate Skiff
Amphibious Assault Sub
Unmanned Naval Repair Bots
Satellite Guided Merchant Ship

Unmanned means they would be guided by remote control operators. The Bots are automated on very simple AI that generally operates on its own with oversight from a remote location - control can and will be taken by operators if needbe. The Satellite Guidance systems are of course much slower but allows large amounts of ships to be efficiently operated by a central control center somewhere on land.

The Battleship, Carrier and Transport are all human operated at this stage still and thus are the only ships among this lot that can continue to upgrade into either the AI or the Human ship layers that come hereafter. Any other ship that upgrades into one of these types will be locked into an AI upgrade path.

I really would like to make a mod that limits the operational range of unmanned naval vehicles away from a valid 'handler' site such as the carrier type here, a fort, or a city. If they go past it or are suddenly relieved of all available handler sites then they just sit on the plot they are on using automated defense systems to defend themselves but are otherwise rendered immobile.


Automated: Lies between Invisible and Shockwave Ship layers.
x100-x102
Automated Destroyer
Automated Corvette
Automated Cruiser
Automated Coast Guard
Automated Battleship
Cybertronic Command Carrier
Automated Submarine
Automated Transport
Automated Naval Repair Bots
Automated Merchant Ship

Automated refers to a primarily AI based system though the system is monitored by coders reading input and outputs from the AI. They are present to make battlefield AI adjustments and constantly upgrade the code to a Secure Cloud AI routine codebase. They CAN be relinquished to direct human control but as time goes on this becomes less and less necessary as the AI is advanced enough to learn successes and failures from any human control session as well as all previous missions.

This is pretty advanced AI but it is still quite Artificial and is NOT self-sentient. The unlocking tech is Droids (although I'm thinking we might want to rename the tech - I don't know yet.) and it spans a very few columns to adapt to a few upgrades in weapons technologies and advanced defenses that begin to counter some of the new EMP weaponry that really hurts them.


Then we have between Shockwave and Anti-Grav ship layers (Anti-grav ships are new lesser versions (more like the originals) of the Gravity Drive ships.)


Droid Navy
x106(DNA Computing)-x111(Frost Beam Weaponry)
Droid Dolphin
Droid Marlin
Droid Hammerhead
Droid Orca
Droid Great White
Droid Whale
Droid Squid
Droid Manta Ray
Droid Crocodile
Droid Crab
Droid Whale Shark
Droid Sea Turtle

As have been discussed but the stats will be dramatically altered placing it here so that's going to require reworking.


Robot Ships
x114-x122 Starting at Terra Computers and Advanced Warmachines and stretching out to Attometer Engineering

Destroyer: Robotic Hexahedron (Basically a 12 sided die shaped craft)

Corvette: Robotic Saucer (Your standard vision of a mid-sized flying saucer)

Cruisers: Robotic Triangle (Visually akin to the UFO's reported of this shape with 3 glowing lights, one at each end, and sometimes a light in the center.)

Cutter (Anti-Criminal): Robotic Crescent (More similar to the UFO fighter ships in Independence Day)

Battleship: Robotic Warship (I can think of a number of ways this can be represented - gigantic and lethal and horrifying.)

Carrier: Robotic Cube (Large floating cube with many exterior cube chambers for landing very fast aerial fighter craft that need very little clearance space per pod.)

Submarine: Robotic Bulletship (Like the reported Cigar shaped UFO ships often reported.)

Pirate: Robotic Bladeship (We can visualize this in a few ways...)

Transport: Robotic Dome Shuttle (This is mostly a circular platform with a shielding dome that floats around to deliver land units wherever they need to go.)

Medical Ship: Nanite Repair Cloud (Moved here - anything more advanced will probably have a nano-grown hull itself and be capable of self healing so rapidly no assistance is necessary.)

Troop Ships: Robotic Bubbleship (Remember that Troop Ships also double as Cruise ships during times of peace so these huge ships are as much clear solid shielding and crystalline walls as any kind of real architecture and represent the ultimate in Cruise traveling anywhere in the solar system. Can hold a truly awesome number of passengers and deliver the maximum amount of scenery along the way.)

Cargo: Robotic Cuboid (A cuboid is an elongated cube - ginormous modular shipping vessel made up of a conglomeration of smaller cube shipping containers with a relatively small central 'shipping container' sized and shaped control module at its heart. Corner modules help to generate the containment fields and provide some small amount of exterior weaponry.)


Robotic ships are truly AI. They have actual real personalities of their own and organize themselves via the Terran Computer hivemind structure so all move in perfect tandem with each other's plans and intentions.

After this point, at the Gravity Ship stage, it's assumed that humanity and AI have come to work so closely with each other humanity is hardly recognizable. No person at this stage completely escapes Cybertronic implantation and no AI is without actual human braincells as part of its processing so it really has become an amalgamation of the two 'races' and cannot be fully categorized as either one. However, if we really do want to, the ships themselves may come in 3 types (visually indistingushable): Human, Cyborg, and AI. Depending on the scenario a player may have a preference for one or another or a restriction against a type.



This is what's conceptually come together so far. Waddya think?

To make this really functional I'm also going to need to develop some Cybertronic War weapon systems as well as some Biological Weapon systems as it becomes necessary for the AI based ships to counter computer viruses with human viruses.



Interestingly enough I noticed that some of the techs I seek to add to support these new developments are techs that were eliminated as being unnecessary from previous proposals... Strongly differ in opinion as I feel new weapons systems really need clear representation. I'm still working on what's going to be good to add there. Additionally, the clear differentiation of invisibility types and 'anti-gravity' stages I outlined is almost identical to what Mr. Azure had intended originally. So without trying to we're coming back around to understanding the implications of his vision in some places. I don't disagree with all the removals made as clogging the tech tree doesn't allow for any kind of agility and I feel that there were a LOT of out of chronological tech positions and it would've been hell to try to rework that many techs when something was out of place... but at least the plans here seem to be following many of the original agendas. Agendas that were either lost in translation or were simply deemed unnecessary to represent (until now real cause is emerging.)

This is coming from having read nearly the entire Transhuman Tech thread... (whew!)
 
This is what's conceptually come together so far. Waddya think?

I really like the Automated Navy idea. :goodjob:

For the robot ships do you have specific models in mind? Or do we need to find some in the download section?

To make this really functional I'm also going to need to develop some Cybertronic War weapon systems as well as some Biological Weapon systems as it becomes necessary for the AI based ships to counter computer viruses with human viruses.

I belive that MrAzure already set up some key techs for these ...

- Dystopia Pathogens (x106)
- Designer Microbiology (x107)
- Apocolyptic Pathogens (x113)

This is coming from having read nearly the entire Transhuman Tech thread... (whew!)

Yeah I thought it would have a few gems in there.
 
I really like the Automated Navy idea. :goodjob:

For the robot ships do you have specific models in mind? Or do we need to find some in the download section?
I don't have any specific models in mind but I did try to conceptualize from a perspective I thought could be fairly easily worked out. Most of the UFO design concepts are something I figured we should be able find as 3d models somewhere or would be fairly simple enough to create in 3d modelling if necessary. We're lucky here in that animation is a little less necessary as a ship doesn't need to swing a weapon.



I belive that MrAzure already set up some key techs for these ...

- Dystopia Pathogens (x106)
- Designer Microbiology (x107)
- Apocolyptic Pathogens (x113)
I'll look out for those specifically... What's the difference between Dystopia Pathogens and Designer Microbiology? They're so close to each other that I think only one of the two will likely be a good point of note.



Yeah I thought it would have a few gems in there.
Some... the main 'gem' is seeing how thoroughly we ripped apart a pretty decent plan from it's origin. It needed SOME culling perhaps but we lost a lot to try to cut it down to it's skeleton imo. I just wish he'd presented it all in a much more patient manner... As it stands now I had no idea how many concepts some techs are intended to represent.
 
I don't have any specific models in mind but I did try to conceptualize from a perspective I thought could be fairly easily worked out. Most of the UFO design concepts are something I figured we should be able find as 3d models somewhere or would be fairly simple enough to create in 3d modelling if necessary. We're lucky here in that animation is a little less necessary as a ship doesn't need to swing a weapon.

Oh good because I have some ideas then. I will post an extensive list with links later. :D

I'll look out for those specifically... What's the difference between Dystopia Pathogens and Designer Microbiology? They're so close to each other that I think only one of the two will likely be a good point of note.


Not sure but the 2 "Pathogen" techs are what are important.
 
Oh good because I have some ideas then. I will post an extensive list with links later. :D
If you need me to adjust the 'vision' or rather the naming, to match the artistic concept, I'm open to that. This is just a first proposal to see how it sparks your side of things. Stats wise they don't have to differ based on the art so it's something for me to work forward with.




Not sure but the 2 "Pathogen" techs are what are important.
Ok... I'll read up on them when going to that.

Also, on further review, I also noticed some weaponry types were intended to unlock at particular techs and by adding techs to specifically unlock those types it changes the course a little (which is good because there's too many unlocking in a tight x layer cluster as it stands now.) So I'll take a moment to offer some clarification and I may be able to make more 'advanced' versions of weapon systems when they unlocked later in the tree in comparison to where I'm planning.
 
Ok so my ideas for the robotic ships. I was looking though all the various ships available in the download section. The most types available are from Babylon 5. At first I was thinking their Earth Alliance ships would be good, but if we want a ship that has no Human crew then they would not make sense since.

I thin looked at the Brakiri ships which were green and looked like they could be similar to circuit boards, but their shapes were not all that impressive.

So then I looked at the Minbar ships. They have an organic and nautical look to them. This would be perfect to be the next step after the Sea Animal Droids. Its taking the organic natural shapes but still look like ships.

They also have their own distinct look so you can know that they all belong to the same era and theme. This is important if we want to keep each era looking different from each other.



Destroyer
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Tigara Class Frigate)
Pic: Here

Corvette
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Nial Class Fighter)
Pic: Here

Cruisers
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Valen Class Cruiser)
Pic: Here

Cutter (Anti-Criminal)
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Tinashi Class Frigate)
Pic: Here

Battleship
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Valenzha Class Command Ship)
Pic: Here

Carrier
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Morshin F2 Class Carrier)
Pic: Here

Submarine
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Torotha Class Frigate)
Pic: Here

Pirate
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Neshatan Class Gunship)
Pic: Here

Transport
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Glider Class Transport)
Pic: Here

Medical Ship
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Tishat Class Fighter)
Pic: Here

Troop Ships
Model: Here (Minbari Federation Morshin Class Carrier)
Pic: Here

Cargo
Model: Here (Lumati Class Transport Ship)
Pic: Here

On a side note perhaps Submarines should be phased out by this time and all ships can dive underwater like a sub.
 
Subs become those ships that continue to use generally more advanced stealth methods than the rest of the fleet after submersion is a non-issue.

Those are wicked cool. Pretty much the perfect appearance for the stage though it's unfortunate they won't be used then for deep space vehicles but I think we'll have other options there. Looks like we'll have to apply some more reasonable names to them as well but that's fine - I can work that.

The Medical Ship for that era is a nano-cloud variant so perhaps we can use that one for what will eventually be a needed new aerial fighter type. Or use the transport one for that and swap out the Medical ship with the transport.

Do we have model concepts for the other currently undefined layers?

These would be:
Automated
Anti-Grav
and
Gravity Drive

There's also probably numerous ships themselves within otherwise defined 'lines' that won't have definition until we do some more digging.
 
Subs become those ships that continue to use generally more advanced stealth methods than the rest of the fleet after submersion is a non-issue.

Ah ok.

Those are wicked cool. Pretty much the perfect appearance for the stage though it's unfortunate they won't be used then for deep space vehicles but I think we'll have other options there. Looks like we'll have to apply some more reasonable names to them as well but that's fine - I can work that.

Yeah there are plenty of other spaceships we can use. The Earth Alliance Ships have rotating parts on them so they are perfect for spaceships with their own artificial gravity. I also picked these because they had fins and stuff which make sense in the air or water but are useless in space.

The Medical Ship for that era is a nano-cloud variant so perhaps we can use that one for what will eventually be a needed new aerial fighter type. Or use the transport one for that and swap out the Medical ship with the transport.

Actually the Nano cloud sounds much better. The Medical Ship one one of the ships I was not really happy with. I also think we need a better Transport.

Do we have model concepts for the other currently undefined layers?

These would be:
Automated
Anti-Grav
and
Gravity Drive

There's also probably numerous ships themselves within otherwise defined 'lines' that won't have definition until we do some more digging.

Well there are a lot to choose from in the download section. I can try to look up some more later.

Where do the current "Fusion" ships fit in? Are they under the "Shockwave" Era?

EDIT: So is it like this?

Human
Modern -> Invisibility -> Shockwave -> Anti-Grav -> Gravity Drive

AI
Unmanned -> Automated -> Droid -> Robot -> Gravity Drive

One thing I noticed is our robots go like this ...

Robot -> Droid -> Android


So perhaps your Robot should be named something else like "Cyber" or "Nano" something.
 
FWIW I've a feeling that Designer Microbi refers to the artistic use of microbiology, such as making collages/mosaics or sculptures/installations of microbe cultures that - for example - bioluminesce in a 'pretty':D combination of colours;).
 
Yes, Shockwave has replaced Fusion and I assumed the art and models for fusion would be inherrited by shockwave. BUT, there are going to be some new gaps there that may be tough to fill with something similar to these graphics so if we want to rethink them entirely it's on the table to consider.

Hydro said:
EDIT: So is it like this?

Human
Modern -> Invisibility -> Shockwave -> Anti-Grav -> Gravity Drive

AI
Unmanned -> Automated -> Droid -> Robot -> Gravity Drive

One thing I noticed is our robots go like this ...

Robot -> Droid -> Android


So perhaps your Robot should be named something else like "Cyber" or "Nano" something.
I noticed there's some discrepancy there.

The established terminology sorta works for land units but gets out of hand here.

Robot -> Droid -> Android
Robot: I suppose this is what we use today in factories. Rudimentary.
Droid: From its positioning on the tree, this suggests a fairly advanced AI by today's standards but lacking any self awareness or self-will. Depending on where the unit is on the tree perhaps some self-adapting capabilities. But largely just very complex AI routines guide its functioning.
Android: Self Aware and pseudo-self will. Anthropomorpholized robotics basically.

Usually the term Android refers to a Humanoid shaped robotic. So applying the term to ships is... problematic. Just doesn't look right.

And I suppose 'Bot' implies simpler Robot-Droid stage robotics.

We're at a loss for some terminology guidelines. I noticed that originally the tech Droids was actually Automated Services which was ironic considering I'd named the fleet that starts to unlock at this tech Automated.

Personally I feel that if we're being honest we're going to want to deeply re-evaluate the land unit upgrade chains after the naval ones. Something has to form a basis beyond just the tech tree itself.

If I think of the term Droid I think of something more advanced than an automated AI system. In fact, it strikes me as being a good term for the MOST advanced systems. Android simply strikes me as a human shaped Droid. Bot and Robot sound less human or AI sounding. Droid seems too early for use in unmanned or automated systems that don't have a true artificial intelligence or one good enough to pretend to be self-sentient.

Cyber refers to human/ai blending. Nano refers to microscopic ai systems and even though larger ships may be nano-grown it's not quite right to call them 'nano' as they're quite macro once they all come together - it'd be like calling out bodies cellular.


This is just discussion at this point and I need more time to think before making a proposal.

Consider there are two ways to generate an AI: Bottom Up and Top Down. Bottom Up is like the intelligence of insects - starts with as basic as possible with simple effectiveness that as it complexifies looks more and more intelligent. Generally reactive and limited.

Top Down is more like our game AI - deeply analyze to determine actions. Can make some few decisions perhaps better than a human as it's coldly analytical and as it complexifies it can make deeper and more complex decisions.

The first is 'Bot' and Nano style. The second is Robotic and Droid AI methodology. A program really only ever approaches things from one angle or another. You can probably do some reading online that will explain what I'm trying to say here better than I can.


In regards to our own ships two things become clear:
Droids are only named as such much later than the Droids tech which is ironically where Automated opens up. I believe we have a problem with the placement of beginning to use the Droid naming and we should keep Droid to mean something much more advanced. The terms Bot, Robot, Automated, etc... are appropriate around this 'Automated' stage.

Even if Droid is maintained after a growing semblance of true artificial intelligence, we may need something better than Android to represent that true AI stage as Android simply refers to a human shaped robotic. Otherwise that last layer of AI ships should be termed Android ships. Doesn't sound right does it?
 
@TB

Well MrAzure planned out a very detailed timeline of robotic evolution in his tech tree.

- Robotics (x82) - Robotics Lab, Battlebot Arena, Robotic Traps

- Unmanned Air Vehicles (x89) - Unmanned Aircraft Factory, Recon Drone, Drone Tacticle Bomber

- Machine Learning (x91) - Mechatronics Lab, Constructor Ship, Walker Droid

---Transhuman Era---

- Unmanned Naval Vehicles (x92) - Remove Naval Training Center, Unmanned Destroyer, Unmanned Pirate Skiff, Unmanned Submarine

- Military Robotics (x94) - Control Center, Unmanned Machine Gun, Unmanned Trike, Drone Gunship

- Powered Exoskeleton (x94) - Mech Assembly Plant, Powered Exoskeleton Infantry, Police Mech

- Disaster Robots (x95) - Service Bot Factory, Robotic Pet Shop, Fire Safety Drone Control Center, Police Drone Control Center, Ambulance Drone Control Center, Scout Droid

- Droids (x100) - Autodoctor, Farm Mech Control Center, Droid Infantry

- Synthetic Sentience (x101) -

- Nanoelectronics (s102) - Nanoacuator Factory, Nanobot Traps, Nanite Lab, Nanofactory

- Warmachines (x102) - Mining Mech Control Center, Anti-Personnel Mech

- Nanobotics (x103) - Utility Fog, Digitized Membrane Factory, Nanobot Wall, Nanobotic Printing Mill, Nanite Swarm

- Bionics (x103) - Anthromorphics Lab, Bionics Factory, Automatons

- Exocortex Networks (x103) - Bunch of Artificial Brain Stuff

- Artificial Intelligence (x104) - Artificial Intelligence Core

- Androids (x104) - Android Factory, Android, Droid Tank, Android Infantry, Robotic Imperial Guard

- Cyberimmuniology (x105) - Bunch of Robotic and Cyborg Health Stuff

- Personal Robots (x106) - Artificial Child Adoption Agency, Android Brothel, Android Servant Store

- Cybernetics (x107) - Bunch of Cyber Buildings, Cyborg

- Binary Legislation (x108) -

- Binary Subconscious (x109) -

- Binary Semiotics (x110) -

- Mind Uploading (x111) - Mind Storage

- Whole Brain Emulation (x111) -

- Technological Singularity (x112) -

- Comprehensive Cybernetics (x112) -

- Humanoids (x113) -

- Advanced Warmachines (x114) - Beta Assembler, Assault Mech

- Terra Computer (x114) - Network Node, Singularity Brain Lab, Sentinel

---Galactic Era---

- Sentient Earth (x116) - Hi-Tech Robot

--------

As you can see there are many milestones. Humanoids for instance marks the complete merging of Artifical and Biological. Think the Cylons in the BTG (2004), while Data from STNG would be at Androids or possibly a little more advanced at Whole Brain Emulation. Andrew from Bicentennial man starts out at Androids but dies at Humanoids.
 
The main issue I have here is that Droid is a term that was better left as 'Automated Robotics' and has become extremely fuzzy in its definition.

That Android is intended to represent Human-like AI beings is not only inherrent in its defintion across many sci-fi tales but is also insinuated in our own naming of units:
- Androids (x104) - Android Factory, Android, Droid Tank, Android Infantry, Robotic Imperial Guard

Droid is a term that spreads from an Automated unit (AI as we know how to program it now albeit quite advanced) all the way through x104 at Droid Tank. We even have:
- Machine Learning (x91) - Mechatronics Lab, Constructor Ship, Walker Droid
far before
- Droids (x100) - Autodoctor, Farm Mech Control Center, Droid Infantry

I suggest that x102 (DNA Computing and Personal Robots) is where we start calling them Droids. Not absolutely self-sentient yet. Androids become a sub-class of the naming that applies to human-like Droids. (As that's what it actually means.)

Bots (Bottom Up AI architecture - usually small and hivelike - updateable AI coding but fully self-controlled),

Robots(Top Down AI architecture - Fully self-controlled though editable AI systems)

Automated (Consistently monitored AI systems during operation)

Unmanned (minimal AI to control minor portions of the system but generally remotely piloted by a human operator)

should refer to units before this point.

The problem is we're then missing a term for something more advanced. At:
- Binary Subconscious (x109)
Binary subconsciousness is the engineering a subconscious mind to artificial intelligence
and androids. Consciousness is a series of electrical impulses shot off by neurons in the brain, which for the first time has been "digitized" to a binary version that allows artificial intelligence and androids to be authentically alive with emotions, dreams, morality, abstract thinking, emapthy, imagination, and rationality . It is stored in 2-5 petabyte sized Subconsciousness Consoles that in the case for 12th generation and newer Androids, are implanted in their heads. AI is truely human and is connected to each other on a subconscious network but not powerful enough to be a sentient earth yet . Cities are run by AI, and AI has authentic personalities, and is "superhuman" in n regards to intelligence, talents, and skills. A mastery of piano can be acquired in seconds. This is the singularity, all that is required is to be able to upload the AI to androids and take over the world. Humans will be able to catch up when they are able to upload their minds.
I believe we enter a whole new phase of AI where the AI gains self-will. At that point, calling these sentient Robotics 'Droids' or even 'Androids' will be rather offensive as they will clearly delineate the difference between themselves and their 'not alive' predecessors.

From wiki:
The word robot can refer to both physical robots and virtual software agents, but the latter are usually referred to as bots.[6] There is no consensus on which machines qualify as robots but there is general agreement among experts, and the public, that robots tend to do some or all of the following: move around, operate a mechanical limb, sense and manipulate their environment, and exhibit intelligent behavior — especially behavior which mimics humans or other animals. In practical terms, "robot" usually refers to a machine which can be electronically programmed to carry out a variety of physical tasks or actions.

There is no one definition of robot that satisfies everyone and many people have their own.[7] For example Joseph Engelberger, a pioneer in industrial robotics, once remarked: "I can't define a robot, but I know one when I see one."[8] The two ways that robots differ from actual beings are, simply stated, in the domain of cognition, and in the domain of biological form. The general consensus is that a "robot" is a machine and not a being simply because it is not intelligent (it requires programming to function), regardless of how human-like it may appear. In contrast, an imaginary "machine" or "artificial life form" (as in science fiction) that could think near or above human intelligence, and had a sensory body, would no longer be a "robot" but would be some kind of "artificial being" or "cognitive robot", (see also cyborg).

According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica, a robot is "any automatically operated machine that replaces human effort, though it may not resemble human beings in appearance or perform functions in a humanlike manner." Merriam-Webster describes a robot as a "machine that looks like a human being and performs various complex acts (as walking or talking) of a human being", or a "device that automatically performs complicated often repetitive tasks", or a "mechanism guided by automatic controls".

Cybertronics is the merger of biological and electronic. So that doesn't fit either as it has its own realm to define (the crossover between the two).

So we need a new term for the really advanced ones. I just spent a bit looking for a good term for this and couldn't find one. I'd used Robotic as the most advanced on that list you posted was the Hi-Tech Robot. But I don't like it.

Synthoid perhaps. Where 'Humanoid' indicates the human-like replica just as Android means to Droid. Something along those lines. Something to say true (albeit 'artificial') intelligence has been achieved.

I read where he was establishing these terms and saw some back and forth and some confusion even in his proposals. I'm really just looking at the terminology though at the moment, NOT the progression paths - those seem quite sound actually. And will appear to be moreso if we can get our terminology lined up appropriately.

(He also considered the big robots to be Mecha and I STRONGLY disagree as Mecha should be a term for MANNED robotic constructs (usually huge war machines - often grandly oversized battle armors such as you have in Battletech and the Pacific Rim movie.)
 
Unmanned (minimal AI to control minor portions of the system but generally remotely piloted by a human operator)

This would also have the term "Drones". Especially in relationship to flying robots.

Bots (Bottom Up AI architecture - usually small and hivelike - updateable AI coding but fully self-controlled),

Robots(Top Down AI architecture - Fully self-controlled though editable AI systems)

Automated (Consistently monitored AI systems during operation)

There are other robot terms we should define.

Mech - A Large Humanoid Robotic Suit controlled by a Human.

Mechadroid - A Large Humanoid Robot controlled by an AI. Similar in shape and design as a Mech, but without a pilot.

Gundam - Basically Space Mechs.

Autos - An AI driven Wheeled Vehicle such as a Car. Made to transport people or goods.

Photonic - A Hologrpahic AI. (ex. The holographic doctor from Star Trek Voyager)

The problem is we're then missing a term for something more advanced. At:
- Binary Subconscious (x109)

Don't forget the Technological Singularity (x112) soon after that ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity

The technological singularity hypothesis supposes that accelerating progress in technologies will cause a runaway effect wherein artificial intelligence will exceed human intellectual capacity and control, thus radically changing or even ending civilization in an event called the singularity.Because the capabilities of such an intelligence may be difficult for a human to comprehend, the technological singularity is often seen as an occurrence beyond which the forthcoming course of human history would be unpredictable or even unfathomable.

Synthoid perhaps. Where 'Humanoid' indicates the human-like replica just as Android means to Droid. Something along those lines. Something to say true (albeit 'artificial') intelligence has been achieved.

If you don't like "Humanoid" then we can find another term however "Synthoid" seems a bit too primitive to me. I don't have a better name though. :(

EDIT: "Humandroid" maybe?
 
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