Death of an Obama fanboy

lovett said:

I think you are perhaps not aware of the starkness of the limits of presidential power. It is incredibly hard to do anything in America's political system. That is because there are so many veto points. One needs a majority (and a sympathetic Chair) in the relevant House committee and in the relevant Senate committee. Then one needs a majority in the House, and (of late) a super-majority in the Senate. And, to top it off, one needs a majority in the supreme court.

You are aware of all this, of course. But perhaps it isn't immediately obvious how hard it is to get four, perhaps five, consecutive majorities on one issue. It is exceedingly, hard, and made harder by the fact that the executive branch has almost nothing to offer these people; not even those within his own party. He has no real influence over their future electoral prospect, nor over there post-politics career prospects. Almost nobody moves from Congress into the executive. What influences these people are there constituencies, and these are incredibly varied. And, usually, this gives them no incentive to spend time on broad programs with a national impact. They win re-election on local policies and local re-distribution. This is why approval rates of individual congresspeople remain high will approval rates of Congress as a body sink so low. So, in short, what you have in the American system is a huge number of institutional veto points (I can think of no other modern democracy with as many)combined with legislators with disparate preferences and negligible incentive to support the national policies a president seeks. If you do not know where to put your finger on Obama's failures vis a vis Congress I would suggest that you lay it firmly on institutional structure.

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Oh I am painfully aware of all that. But at this point I have been convinced by Cutlass and others that he has done a really bad job of managing Congress altogether. I also still place a ton of blame on the Republicans but essentially this thread is about me coming to grips with the fact that not all of the blame belongs to them and I am asking everyone else for their honest, non-inflammatory evaluations.

I thought it'd be nice to a have decent discussion about Obama for once instead of the usual feces slinging. I also am deliberately testing out the idea of red-diamond threads and more OP control as it's been discussed but no one's done anything to (re)validate the idea(s) since it's recently come up. I suspect this won't all work out and will fizzle, but it's worth a shot and do want to discuss this issue in a serious manner.

Ziggy Stardust said:

But you make an interesting point. There have been a lot of hope for failure and glee at for instance unemployement rates here from those who are the partisan opposites of Obama. That for me who lives in a country where that kind of blatant partisanism is unheard of is staggering.

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About a week after Obama won his first election, I was in Springfield on Community College Board business. Naturally, all of the young people such as myself were excited. But I distinctly remember sitting at a table with an older gentleman who was foaming at the mouth with his hatred for Obama and his absolute conviction that Obama was already destroying America despite not taking office.

That's what it's been like here, there is so much hate and vitriol both amongst politicians and the general public. I think with politicians it started to get nasty way back with Senate hearings to confirm Clarence Thomas and just continued spiraling downward throughout Clinton and Bush's presidency. Both parties are to blame for that but here lately, with Obama being a democrat, naturally the current problem is the Republicans (whereas under Bush it was the Dems at fault). There is simply no respect for the office, it's become a popular culture figure akin to a common celebrity rather than the 'leader of the free world'*. As such, the office of the President and the person who holds it is open to the same kind of base ridicule as Brangelina and it poisons everything.

I think the population has taken the lead from the pundits and politicians and I don't think we would all be quite as nasty if we didn't see it from our elected leaders daily. I don't know though, it's all out of control at this point and it's clearly negatively affecting the ability of the office of the President to do anything because regardless of what party or person holds the office, the other side of the country is devoted to complete annihilation and nothing less. I had hoped Obama could be a Lincoln-eque figure who could transcend it all.

Then I remember the only way Lincoln ever actually transcended the hate heaped upon him at the time was by catching a bullet. I also remember that Lincoln got stuff done, but then again the half of Congress that opposed him tooth and nail was officially at war with him and out of the picture.


*I used the phrase 'leader of the free world' to illustrate the change in attitude Americans have toward the Presidency. No one uses that phrase any more except to attack the office.

downtown said:

I can wait. I'm full of #Hot #HigherEd #Takes.

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Up in a minute.

The higher ed thread is up dt. Sorry the OP should be much better but I have to run some errands real quick and I figured you'd do just as good a job fleshing it out as I could. Be back soon.

PupzHaze said:

Also, barrel of feaces is a pretty darn near exact estimate of the helpfulness of Hillary Clinton to the American public.

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Going into more detail would help, expanding on the point. You could probably slip some faeces into the details and we wouldn't notice as long as you had enough of it (details that is, not faeces).

The thread is not about Hillary. And I gave you a HUGE detail right there in my first post. Open your eyes.

PupzHaze said:

Why? What's improved? And Hillary really? Hilarious "Every nation has to either be with us, or against us" Clinton? She's about as helpful as a barrel of faeces.

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Well I posted what "I feel".
If you google you will find that my feeling is not unique.

I have been given some bags of faeces. I find them very useful in my garden.
Maybe Hilary is helping to cultivate US foreign relations in the same way.

Added

PupzHaze said:

The thread is not about Hillary. And I gave you a HUGE detail right there in my first post. Open your eyes.

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So do you believe that the improvement in how the US is viewed only due to Obama.

Silurian said:

So do you believe that the improvement in how the US is viewed only due to Obama.

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I don't see the improvement. That's the point.

I'm going to write out more later (I'm a little strapped for time now, so this is a subscription post of sorts). I had a few more ideas on areas to evaluate his presidency:

Cabinet appointments are one area where the president has wider leeway and the person appointed can set the tone for the department as a whole. I wouldn't say I'm floored with excitement at his selections, but I'm not disgusted by them. On average, I think they are a competent bunch (Side note: I know Ernest Moniz from his days in the MIT Energy Initiative--he's a good guy, but I don't know if he'll be able to do much in the current environment). If we extend this further to all appointments, then I have to give him an incomplete score because his nominees aren't being approved by the Congress (and this starts to fall under one of the prior categories).

I'd also evaluate his performance in terms of the Supreme Court justices he has appointed during his tenure. Among the few things holding me back from unloading Bushtastic levels of hate on Obama is that I trust Sonia Sotomayor and Elena Kagan far more than John Roberts and Samuel Alito. Neither may be the reincarnation of Earl Warren (yet), but they have a chance to be.

Depending on how granular you want to get, you could break off all the cabinet departments and cabinet-level offices and talk about the policy in each (i.e. everything from energy labor relations, urban development, to environmental policy, etc.).

PupzHaze said:

I don't see the improvement. That's the point.

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Well the change in opinion various between countries. And obviuosly between people.

But if the opinion polls are to be believed then the international standing of the US has improved in most countries. In some it has declined. A positive opinion will help the US in many ways. It could be argued that the improvement in US standing is nothing to do with Obama himself (or Hilary).

Good.

hobbsyoyo said:

This thread is about the death of an Obama fanboy. This fanboy shall remain anonymous, but his name begins with 'hobbs' and ends with 'yoyo'. As you all have surely noticed, I have been one of the biggest Obama supporters on CFC and defend pretty much everything he's done. I have secretly harbored doubts of late but faithfully held the line down in the muddy trenches of American political discourse.

I have recently come down with a bad case of shell shock and I can no longer hide my disillusionment with the patron saint of hope and change.

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How remarkable you know someone with the same peculiar name.

I know a similar person, who shall remain anonymous (I'll call her, "my daughter"), who as a young, bright coed was very involved with Barrak Obama's 2008 election campaign - attending rallies, persuading her friends to register to vote, condemning evil McCain. By 2012 she underwent a similar shell shock and disillusionment to that you've described and has become quite sour over him.

I think young people are like that - they perhaps need to get burnt once or twice before they settle down into political maturity. In the future you may have more realistic expectations, and perhaps learn that manipulating the "dreams" of the youngest voter cohort is largely a campaign tactic (JFK 1960, George McGovern 1972 - read Theodore White's Making of the President series).

Ziggy Stardust said:

The thing is that Obama is not solely in charge of the US. The thing is that he's an elected politician. This means that not every policy that comes out of the government is Obama's brainchild, not every (not many?) statements on policy coming out of Obama's mouth are his.

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This.

I would add that politics here has become nasty, fractuous and devisive in the last two decades. Prior to this, (after the election) politicians buried the hatched and compromised for the good of the country. Today, that principle seems all but forgotten and neither side seems willing to give an inch on important issues. It wasn't always like this, and I hope it changes soon. Some today see compromise as a defeat, but it's how this nation has traditionally been ruled.

Glassfan said:

How remarkable you know someone with the same peculiar name.

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Yeah, he's a real jerk sometimes!

I think young people are like that - they perhaps need to get burnt once or twice before they settle down into political maturity. In the future you may have more realistic expectations, and perhaps learn that manipulating the "dreams" of the youngest voter cohort is largely a campaign tactic (JFK 1960, George McGovern 1972 - read Theodore White's Making of the President series).

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I will look into that series as I finally have some time.

I do think you are right about young people getting a shock of reality. In my case I got that shock during the Bush years after the 'golden' Clinton years and so by Obama I was willing to believe he could walk on water.

Glassfan said:

Some today see compromise as a defeat, but it's how this nation has traditionally been ruled.

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Indeed. All democratic nations. You never get everything you want. Deal with it.

hobbsyoyo said:

That's what it's been like here, there is so much hate and vitriol both amongst politicians and the general public. I think with politicians it started to get nasty way back with Senate hearings to confirm Clarence Thomas and just continued spiraling downward throughout Clinton and Bush's presidency. Both parties are to blame for that but here lately, with Obama being a democrat, naturally the current problem is the Republicans (whereas under Bush it was the Dems at fault). There is simply no respect for the office, it's become a popular culture figure akin to a common celebrity rather than the 'leader of the free world'*. As such, the office of the President and the person who holds it is open to the same kind of base ridicule as Brangelina and it poisons everything.

I think the population has taken the lead from the pundits and politicians and I don't think we would all be quite as nasty if we didn't see it from our elected leaders daily. I don't know though, it's all out of control at this point and it's clearly negatively affecting the ability of the office of the President to do anything because regardless of what party or person holds the office, the other side of the country is devoted to complete annihilation and nothing less. I had hoped Obama could be a Lincoln-eque figure who could transcend it all.

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See, I have a different take on it.

I'm not an Obama fanboy, but to most of my friends I come across as one because I challenge them on their assertions. They interpret these challenges as defenses on my part - and thus endorsements.

To be honest I think he's actually been a very good president. Far from perfect, but extremely far from bad.

I guess it comes down to the definition of 'good president' for me.

GWB was just about the worst president I could imagine. In fact, if you had told me back in 1992 - when I proudly voted for Ross Perot [thankfully he didn't win] - that a faux Texan would be awarded the Office by the Supreme Court, fumble the worst attack against American interests in half a century, start a war on false pretenses, yadda yadda yadda; I would have assumed you were talking about an alternate sci-fi future fiction book. Not reality.

So, against that low bar, Obama has been a really REALLY good president.

I even think he's been better than Clinton, GHWB, and Reagan. Domestically he's much better than any of those, with the exception - and it's a huge exception - of domestic spying.

I never attribute the failures of an administration solely to the President. As others have mentioned, the President appoints advisers. His choice of advisers is arguably the best measure of a President's potential. When I hear that Joe Beltway is running for President, I sort of throw up my hands in frustration, because *nothing* that person does or says is relevant to how they will manage the affairs of governing except who they choose as advisers. The necessary skill of the Administrator in Chief is selecting Good, Wise, Skilled people to his cabinet. All else is negotiable.

By this measure I think he's been an excellent president (with the glaring exception of AG Holder). Holder is the most Bush-like of Obama's appointees. Someone who's got a long history with the president, but may not be the best person for the job. Someone whose mistakes are granted a pass every time, while those same mistakes by someone without the personal history would have consequences.

So this all may read as fanboyism, but I didn't vote for him either time. But that doesn't mean that I'm not glad he won - I am, considering who the competition was. Pragmatism at it's finest, here

I think you are perhaps not aware of the starkness of the limits of presidential power.

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This seems surprisingly relevant: Three reasons Congress is Broken (Washington Post). It's about Congress, but
a) Some important factors also apply to the Executive branch, effectively reducing its power.
b) Interesting stuff on how the Admin. and congress worked together on a particular bill. There's sort of shadow-version of the bully pulpit.

Ziggy Stardust said:

Nothing wrong with being a fanboy for artists or a sports team,

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I'll just point out that oxygen deprivation can give you approximately the same results, but is generally much cheaper.

I was never an Obama fanboy. But I did hope for a great deal more out of him than we got. But I certainly underestimated the shear severity of the opposition that he would be facing. So my disappointment in him is somewhat mitigated by the fact that we haven't had a president that has faced what Obama has faced in decades. We haven't had a president that has faced the economic problems Obama has faced since FDR. We haven't had a president inherit a mismanaged war since Nixon. We haven't had a president with such a hostile Congress since I don't know when, but it was almost certainly before the 20th century.

That said, I don't think Obama has done well with what has been within his power to do about these problems. Part of that is his inexperience showing. Part of that his basic conservatism.

It's hard to say, from the outside, just what is passing between Obama and others behind closed doors. And, ultimately, Obama has failed at transparency, and so what he has tried to do, if different from what he has done, has been lost for that reason.

Obama's failure to form relationships with key members of Congress to get better legislation done is in part the fact of the unacceptable and intolerable misbehavior of Congressional Republicans. But Obama failed to really try to reach out to them, and to Democratic members as well. That's on him.

My biggest problem with Obama is the lack of transparency and his crackdown on whistleblowers. One thing that should have been learned from the Bush years is that we desperately need more public scrutiny of what the government is doing. This to me is Obama's most significant, and personal, failure.

Further, we really need to roll back government, and for that matter, private sector, infringements on liberty. Yet Obama has been a failure in regards to both of critical issues.

As a national issue, conservatism in economic policy needs to be eliminated. And Obama is an economic conservative. That is perhaps the most significant issue for the continued prosperity of the American nation and people. So he gets really bad marks there.

This thread is a perfect example of what OT will become if we merge the forums. Sneak-censorship and stupidity-rule elitist idiocy.

hobbsyoyo said:

As you all have surely noticed, I have been one of the biggest Obama supporters on CFC and defend pretty much everything he's done.
...
In my opinion, there is not one single big problem with him, rather I see failing across multiple issues.
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I want to specifically address these two very important parts of your OP, but I got here after a few people (including yourself) had made some points I would have made, so I'll quote them first...

Ziggy Stardust said:

The thing is that Obama is not solely in charge of the US. The thing is that he's an elected politician. This means that not every policy that comes out of the government is Obama's brainchild, not every (not many?) statements on policy coming out of Obama's mouth are his.

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Angst said:

US foreign standing has improved substantially in DK since Obama got elected. It actually shifted from a relationship of disgust to a balanced receptiveness, at least.

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hobbsyoyo said:

Oh I am painfully aware of all that. But at this point I have been convinced by Cutlass and others that he has done a really bad job of managing Congress altogether.

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Antilogic said:

Cabinet appointments are one area where the president has wider leeway and the person appointed can set the tone for the department as a whole. I wouldn't say I'm floored with excitement at his selections, but I'm not disgusted by them. On average, I think they are a competent bunch

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peter grimes said:

To be honest I think he's actually been a very good president. Far from perfect, but extremely far from bad.

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Cutlass said:

I was never an Obama fanboy. But I did hope for a great deal more out of him than we got. But I certainly underestimated the shear severity of the opposition that he would be facing.

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Basically, I agree with you, but I also agree with the "apologists" (in quotes 'cause I'm about to agree with them) above:

He's not been awesome. But, here's my point: he's been better than the alternatives. We had 2 choices, basically: Obama or McCain; Obama or Romney. I think it's important that you look at the alternative. Would either choice, either time, have been better?

That's what matters. I'm often disappointed in Obama, on a number of issues, but the fact remains: would the alternative have been better? On every issue that matters to you, would the alternative have been better?

That's why I support him, despite my frequent disappointments. Would McCain/Palin have done things differently? Probably. Would they be better? Would Romney/Ryan have done things differently? Probably. Would they be better?

Yeah, lesser of two evils is a bad choice to be presented with. But, to be honest, I think of it more as tarnished good vs. actual evil. We'd probably be at war with Iran. We wouldn't even have the Affordable Care Act, as flawed as it is. Billionaires would be paying less taxes, not ever so slightly more. Do you think McCain/Romney would have implemented Lilly Ledbetter? Who would they have appointed instead of Sotomayor & Kagan? Would either one have ended the Iraq War and/or be willing to end Afghanistan?

Obama's not great. I don't suggest anyone be a fanboy. But compared to the alternative? Don't lose Hope.

Don't lose hope?

Well, it's a little embarrassing but here's the truth; you are royally F:ed in the A until you take to the F:ing streets and reclaim you dignity.

If it's any consolation you're not alone.

Suburbs have been burning for five days straight over here.

Honestly, I think Obama's done a very good job. Politics is the art of the possible, and Obama has done an impressive though not perfect job of making the most of it. Admittedly the past few years of gridlock have also worn me down... But I still remember the slew of accomplishments Obama presided over during his first two years (preventing Depression, Supreme Court appointments, Race to the Top, ACA, Consumer protection bureau, etc...), and in my mind their benefits outweigh Obama's shortcomings.

*Golf Clap*