Never-Before-Seen Civilizations

Scythia would rock too. But of the list I'd most like to see Hebrews, Assyrians, and Indonesians (Majahapit).

Morningcalm: Scythia would indeed be cool. But given the limited info on them, they'd be easier to implement as a barbarian group. I'm all for including unique barbarian groups with special features, UUs, etc. So the same would go for the Huns, Goths, etc.

Alezander01 said:

commanderkai: The point of the Moors is the inclusion of another African civ, one that had a huge empire (see here), and epic art and architecture. They may be similar to the Arabs because of shared religion, but I view that more as a similarity than an exact copy--more like Greece and Rome really.

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Well, for a good North African civ, why not Carthage? I'm pretty sure they have existed in past Civ games (thus why they aren't mentioned in your poll) and would have less overlap with other Civs...unless you count their historical destruction by Rome. I do agree Civilization needs more African Civs, and a good Latin/South American civ.

The aborigines of Australia sounds appealing. I'm more of an aboriginal civilization person. I only play Iroquois usually and maybe sometimes Polynesia.

commanderkai: That's just it. Carthage has already made it into Civ before. This is about civs that could make it into the game beyond the ~40 civs that have already been included in the past. The Moors are a solid, well-known group that flourished for a long time... a shoe-in for Africa. And there hasn't been a civ in the Morocco/Mauretania corner yet, after all. I also agree about Latin America... just haven't seen a really good proposal yet.

Geronimoo: The Aborigines are a fascinating group. Don't see how their inclusion would be possible though.

Actually we have a good amount of information about Mississippi culture.

So mississippi culture:
Mound Builders: Happiness from Buildings not limited by city population, building maintenance costs halved.

Unique Building: Platform Mound, Replaces Walls, city has +1 bombard range, +2 culture.

Unique Units: Brave, replaces crossbowman, Can Melee attack or Range attack.

Chief Tuskaloosa is the leader

Seasnake: I've heard of Tuskaloosa, but I never really paired him with Cahokia in my mind. Still, any leader is better than no leader. I'd love to see the Mississippians represented somehow.

He's a well-known leader of a tribe in that cultural group. he's not a guy directly connected with the prominent sites like Cahokia, but I think he'd represent the Mississippi as well as Kamehameha represents Polynesians.

^ Very interesting about Tuskaloosa. I could be persuaded that the Mississippians could be added. I had thought that disease caused the mound-building culture to collapse in advance of European troops.

Alezander01 said:

Louis XXIV: A Pueblo/Hopi/Anasazi seems like a possibility. I'll have to give it some more thought. I'm still unconvinced on Venice, though I understand your reasons for suggesting them. They were an important political entity for quite a while.

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Well, I have a couple of reasons. Important politically is one. Another is that I happen to like Italian and would love to have an excuse to have it spoken in the game (and modern Italy certainly does not qualify and Renaissance Italy outside of Venice was too divided to qualify, imo). It's not a Civ I'd ever expect in the game, but I figure it's worth mentioning.

Alezander01 said:

commanderkai: The point of the Moors is the inclusion of another African civ, one that had a huge empire (see here), and epic art and architecture. They may be similar to the Arabs because of shared religion, but I view that more as a similarity than an exact copy--more like Greece and Rome really.

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I'd also add that having "the Arabs" as one giant Civ does a bit of a disservice to history. There were many great Islamic Kingdoms, plenty of which weren't even led by Arabs (Almoravids are Berbers and are the ancestors of modern Morocco). So, while I'll accept the Arabs of the Arabian conquest, rulers of Damascus and Baghdad, etc. should be represented by one Civ. The height of Islamic Spain and North Africa can easily fit in as a second Civ.

I think there are two questions. Can a Civ be represented by an existing Civ and should it. I'm willing to have all later Persian Kingdoms (Parthians, Sassanians, Safavids, and Iran) all under the Civ that represents the Achaemenids because I don't think each one stood out enough to stand on their own. I also think Germany adequately represents the Holy Roman Empire, Prussia, and the ancient Germanic tribes because their attributes appropriately reflect these time periods.

I think an argument can be made for Austria as independent in consideration of their vast non-Germanic holdings and their distinct periods of history on top or side by side with Germany/Prussia (especially given their modern distinction as well). But I could see either way.

seasnake: Sounds good. Nice contribution!

Louis XXIV: +1 to your comments on Arabia, Persia and Germany. I definitely think the Moors are diverse enough to get their own. Wouldn't have suggested them otherwise.

Have the moors as their own civ in one of my mods for Civ IV. Definitely a lot of untapped potential there. Fascinating civilization that was not Arab at all ethnically. It's like saying the Celts and Britain were the same peoples because both inhabited the British Isles.

seasnake: Indeed. And I'd love to see the Alhambra as a wonder. That place is amazing! Additionally, the Moorish unique building could be the Kasbah and the unique unit the Urban Militia (although I'd prefer to get a better name for it).

Maybe make the Kasbah a Unique Improvement replacing the Fort? I'm worried about it being too close to the Mughal Fort otherwise.

Just trying to read a bit more about the Mississippians. It seems the best choice for a language would be Chickasaw or Choctaw (anything from the Muskogean family).

It seems a case could be made for incorporating the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, which has also been referred to as the Southern Death Cult or the Chiefly Warfare Cult (probably the last one has the best combination of excitement and not seeming like a fantasy game/insensitive). I could see it being incorporated into the unique unit. Maybe a Falcon Warrior (too close to Jaguar Warrior?) as the UU.

Louis XXIV: Given the choice, I'd switch it and have the Mughal Fort be a unique improvement. Either way though.

D712 said:

I voted other, mainly because I think it is high time that civ does a Brazilian civ. Brazil is an ex-colonial state, just like America, and is developing to be the main South American nation. I think that it's high time South America gets a civ that reached the modern era.

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This and the Moors are the only ones that deserve any attention.

For European civilizations I would recommend the Bulgars and the Magyars.

Save_Ferris said:

think the Assyrians would be a better choice than the Babylonians, so I put them down- they conquered more land. Although, I don't think they both should be in.

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Babylonians and Sumerians were both in Civ IV.

I'd say there's room for the Assyrians.

By the way, should any question arise about which civs have been in previous iterations of the game, I happen to have made a chart displaying all the included civs and leaders from Civ1 to the present.

Louis XXIV said:

Maybe make the Kasbah a Unique Improvement replacing the Fort? I'm worried about it being too close to the Mughal Fort otherwise.

Just trying to read a bit more about the Mississippians. It seems the best choice for a language would be Chickasaw or Choctaw (anything from the Muskogean family).

It seems a case could be made for incorporating the Southeastern Ceremonial Complex, which has also been referred to as the Southern Death Cult or the Chiefly Warfare Cult (probably the last one has the best combination of excitement and not seeming like a fantasy game/insensitive). I could see it being incorporated into the unique unit. Maybe a Falcon Warrior (too close to Jaguar Warrior?) as the UU.

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I went with a more generic term "Brave" because that was the terminology given to native warriors descending from Mississipian culture in south east united states by the early european settlers, but falcon warrior is possibly a more accurate naming.

Yeah, and the Alhambra should be a world wonder, along with Sagrada Familia. Go Spain!

Martians?