Dutch walkthrough of Morocco and Civil War scenario

wigwam said:

I laid out my arguments against Prora in another thread and won't clog this one up with all of them, but just to put it briefly: it was never actually built (what currently exists is only part of the original project and was actually finished by the DDR; the Nazis abandoned construction when the war started) and it represents something uglier and more hateful than I think a Civ wonder should.

I really dislike the fact that the Autocracy tree has turned out to just be whitewashed Nazism. With the Kamikaze tenet apparently removed, I think the only aspect of Autocracy that references anything other than the Nazis is the Futurism tenet. What about Japan, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, etc.? I don't want to play as the Nazis, and I particularly don't want to see an idealized version of the Nazis, without any reference to their crimes or to how essential and fundamental racial hatred, exclusion, and violence were to their ideology.

Which, yeah, don't pick Autocracy. Fair enough. But I don't have to like it!

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Oh, come on. Everyone secretly wants to play as Hitler in a Civ game, if only just once.

I'm not sure if this is new but a religious belief 'Religious arts' and a building constructed with faith gives tourism

maxp said:

I'm not sure if this is new but a religious belief 'Religious arts' and a building constructed with faith gives tourism

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That may be one of the new Reformation Beliefs.

Eagle Pursuit said:

That may be one of the new Reformation Beliefs.

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Religious Arts already exists.
It gives +8 culture to the Hermitage. It's understandable they would change it to also give Tourism.
No reason to think it has been promoted to Reformation Belief, really...

JSMCAG said:

Religious Arts already exists.
It gives +8 culture to the Hermitage. It's understandable they would change it to also give Tourism.
No reason to think it has been promoted to Reformation Belief, really...

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I didn't recognize it as I never use that one.

maxp said:

I'm not sure if this is new but a religious belief 'Religious arts' and a building constructed with faith gives tourism

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What is that building for the column on the right that has a great work slot?

Autocracy is not that emphatically Nazi come on

Elite Forces. Units fighting on despite being wounded. This fits Imperial Japan more than Germany though both had militaries with high morale.

Mobilization- Yeah Autocracies are militaristic and dig deep. Fits most Autocracies. Fits Imperial Germany better than Nazi's since their mobilization was more impressive and tight due to 2 front war.

Futurism- Little to do with Nazi's

Industrial Espionage.- Yeah Nazi's weren't known for this.

Fortified Borders.- Nazi's did construct some defenses but were hardly known for this. Fits Imperial Japan with its ethos of fanatical defense even by civilians better.

Universal Healthcare- Far more attributable to Bismarck and Imperial Germany then the Nazis who had a bitter hatred with the Communists.

Militarism Name me an autocracy that was not militaristic.

Lightning Warfare- This one is Nazi based. It is based off the exploits of the German Army though more, and many of the foremost practitioners were hardly the best or most ardent Nazis. Focuses on armor not air when the Luftwaffe was by far the most Nazi arm.

Police State- Again seen in most of the Autocracies.

Third alternative. Not aware of the reference. Probably due to autocracy being founded after Freedom and Order int he interwar years. This puts the focus more on Mussolini.

Total War. Fits Japan, Nazis and Imperial Germany at least.

Cult of Personality- Yeah Mussolini fits this just as well as Hitler.

Gunboat Diplomacy. reference to 19th century Imperialism. Fits Imperial Japan more than Nazis at least in relevance of reference. See Italy and Albania too.

Clausewitz Legacy. Yeah this fits Imperial Germany as well as the Nazi's.

So you have Prora and Lightning Warfare as the only things that focus on the Nazis more than anything else. Remember just because something references Germany doesn't mean its always Nazi.

The US was a pretty ardent practitioner of Gunboat Diplomacy.

Russia undertook total war versus Napoleon.

And let's not forget the ancient armies that used cavalry in "lightning war" or "shock and awe" tactics. The Mongols were famous for this.

Holy hippy.The Commies of Russia and China killed 100 million of their own people and I do not see a policy reflecting that either.

Probably because it'd be broken to draft 2 units for 1 population point

wigwam said:

I laid out my arguments against Prora in another thread and won't clog this one up with all of them, but just to put it briefly: it was never actually built (what currently exists is only part of the original project and was actually finished by the DDR; the Nazis abandoned construction when the war started) and it represents something uglier and more hateful than I think a Civ wonder should.

I really dislike the fact that the Autocracy tree has turned out to just be whitewashed Nazism. With the Kamikaze tenet apparently removed, I think the only aspect of Autocracy that references anything other than the Nazis is the Futurism tenet. What about Japan, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, etc.? I don't want to play as the Nazis, and I particularly don't want to see an idealized version of the Nazis, without any reference to their crimes or to how essential and fundamental racial hatred, exclusion, and violence were to their ideology.

Which, yeah, don't pick Autocracy. Fair enough. But I don't have to like it!

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I totally agree about the Autocracy tenets and whitewashed Nazism. The policy systems always go through a little post-release tinkering; hopefully we'll see some of that in the inevitable patches.

I honestly can't think of a good potential Autocracy wonder to replace the awful choice of Prora, though. Other Nazi buildings are out for legal and moral reasons (which is why I'm surprised Prora got in in the first place) and it'd also be nice to have something less Germanic when Autocracy is already so close to Nazism. It's not right to play along with Autocracy's habit of co-opting existing national symbols, so Brandenburg Gate (which is otherwise the most mechanically appropriate) or Yasukuni Shrine would be out. Italian fascism didn't really produce any buildings worthy of the "wonder" title either -- unless you count the EUR, which doesn't feel grand or majestic enough to be in the same category of symbolism as the Kremlin or the Statue of Liberty.

I guess a good option might be the Valley of the Fallen from Francoist Spain, but I don't know enough about the era to know if that's politically insensitive or not.

Yeah, because no nation in history ever used autocratic policies before the Third Reich. Everybody's making up these other examples. smh

wigwam said:

I laid out my arguments against Prora in another thread and won't clog this one up with all of them, but just to put it briefly: it was never actually built (what currently exists is only part of the original project and was actually finished by the DDR; the Nazis abandoned construction when the war started) and it represents something uglier and more hateful than I think a Civ wonder should.

I really dislike the fact that the Autocracy tree has turned out to just be whitewashed Nazism. With the Kamikaze tenet apparently removed, I think the only aspect of Autocracy that references anything other than the Nazis is the Futurism tenet. What about Japan, Spain, Portugal, Brazil, Argentina, etc.? I don't want to play as the Nazis, and I particularly don't want to see an idealized version of the Nazis, without any reference to their crimes or to how essential and fundamental racial hatred, exclusion, and violence were to their ideology.

Which, yeah, don't pick Autocracy. Fair enough. But I don't have to like it!

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Sure! There's an important ethics of representation going on when you depict catastrophic policies like that. That Prora thingy is bizarre!

On the other hand, it could always get worse. Auschwitz-Birkenau as a "Wonder", "Arbeit macht frei" tenet usw.

HemlockMartinis said:

I honestly can't think of a good potential Autocracy wonder to replace the awful choice of Prora, though. Other Nazi buildings are out for legal and moral reasons (which is why I'm surprised Prora got in in the first place) and it'd also be nice to have something less Germanic when Autocracy is already so close to Nazism. It's not right to play along with Autocracy's habit of co-opting existing national symbols, so Brandenburg Gate (which is otherwise the most mechanically appropriate) or Yasukuni Shrine would be out. Italian fascism didn't really produce any buildings worthy of the "wonder" title either -- unless you count the EUR, which doesn't feel grand or majestic enough to be in the same category of symbolism as the Kremlin or the Statue of Liberty.

I guess a good option might be the Valley of the Fallen from Francoist Spain, but I don't know enough about the era to know if that's politically insensitive or not.

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The Motherland Calls is seriously the perfect autocracy wonder. Does anyone know why it was removed from the game?

Apparently because no one came for the Motherland.

In all seriousness I have no idea, but Motherland Calls was Soviet if I remember. It would represent Order.

damnyankees said:

The Motherland Calls is seriously the perfect autocracy wonder. Does anyone know why it was removed from the game?

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I don't know why it was removed, but a monument erected to commemorate the prototypical Order civilization's defensive war against the prototypical Autocracy civilization doesn't really seem like a great Autocracy wonder to me.

damnyankees said:

The Motherland Calls is seriously the perfect autocracy wonder. Does anyone know why it was removed from the game?

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No it would be the best Order wonder, but the damn Kremlin got it they were built in 1100-1300's (not sure exact date) but they have to be built in the industrial era WTF?!?!

HemlockMartinis said:

I don't know why it was removed, but a monument erected to commemorate the prototypical Order civilization's defensive war against the prototypical Autocracy civilization doesn't really seem like a great Autocracy wonder to me.

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I don't really think of the USSR as anything but an autocracy. And The Motherland Calls is specifically a statue made as a result of a massive war which was all about patriotic death and defending the homeland at the order of a tyrant. It's autocracy personified.

Gali said:

Third alternative. Not aware of the reference. Probably due to autocracy being founded after Freedom and Order int he interwar years. This puts the focus more on Mussolini.

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A quick search found it as "Third Position" on Wikipedia. According to the page, it refers to the rejection of Capitalism and Socialism by revolutionary nationalists since they are "beyond left or right" and focus on syncretic politics for radical ideas, however that works as an alternative is something I do not understand (a sentiment echoed by various political scientists). These political scientists argue that it is an ideology of ultra-nationalism presented by neo fascists focused on using ethnic homogeneity and collectivized production to achieve a sort of national rebirth. It does raise questions of how this would be presented by the Civilopedia since we have two different definitions that are very different.

The term comes from a 1940 Mussolini speech as "Third Alternative", so you are correct.