Dune Wars 1.9.4 Patch Feedback

I got a bit lost in the latest posts, since they are long, English is not my mother language and its really hot here :sad: .

Anyway. What I was annoyed of and, as I think, chris was annoyed of too, is the line of upgrading.

- At first, I get the crawler. It's good against melee, nothing wrong with it.

- Second, I get the mk2 mech (don't remember the name). It looses its special advantage against melee, but is overall stronger and therefor this is not critical. 8x1,4 = 11,2, that's ok compared to the general strength of 11 @ mk2.

- Third, I get the "mk3", and the problem arises with it:
1. It's far more expensive than mk2 PLUS
2. It's only slightly stronger (13 I think) than mk2, but has only one bonus strength, compared to three or four of the mk2's. PLUS
3. It looses the ability to intercept. PLUS
4. Most important: I can't build the mk2's anymore!!!!!!!
Now I feel fooled by the game. It simply feels illogical. Imagine you are the Ixian general in command and your forces are under frequent air attacks. Your troops defend quite well against them with your mk2 mechs. Suddenly your Lord arises before you and says: "Great news! Our factories now build the mk 3 mech. It costs more than twice as much, is weaker against all vehicles and all kind of aircraft (11*1,5=16,5 > 13), and may no longer intercept. Oh, and this means that we are no longer able to build the mk2 that saved our asses (or what Ixians have)." You'd draw your lasgun and blast your lord into his atomic pieces. Oh, never mind, the game doesn't offer this option.
So I reload and try to avoid that tech as long as possible. Weird. Not flavorful. Not funny. And no interesting decision. No Ixian would REPLACE the mk2 with the mk3, he would only ADD it.

That is why I changed it that mk2 upgrades to mk4 and thus can coexist with mk3.

A specialty like "+40 % against melee" is one thing. You can still fight against melee without it, and given you get enough other advantages in exchange for the loss it may - and frequently will - sound like a good deal. Scorpions get slower in the same manner, and nobody complains about it. But loosing a complete ability (here: interception) and having it reduced to zero is another thing, at least when upgrading (and build options) kicks in.
In this case its even worse since it's combined with "not enough" compensations on the other hand. The latter could be done by tweaking, but the former can't (at least not that simple).

This is why I find it legitime to propose and support reworking here. Maybe the reasons to design it in this way were good and senseful, but the solution is certainly not.
 
@KHM It appears to me that the specific issue you mention (that the Level 3 unit isn't sufficiently better than the level 2) can be addressed largely through stat tweaks.

I think its fine that the unit lose interception. This is a good thing; if this were not the case, then there would be no reason to ever build missile troopers.

Note @Chris; I am also open to shifting the tech requirements for the units to space them better. Part of the problem is that tech tree changes changed the spacing of these units, so the tech requirements are a bit bunched, which meant that the stats got a bit bunched.
I'd consider changing upgrade paths so that 1 upgrades to 3 and 2 upgrades to 4 or something, but then you have a problem, because 1 stops being useful long before you get to 3.
 
@KHM ....

I think its fine that the unit lose interception. This is a good thing; if this were not the case, then there would be no reason to ever build missile troopers.

I agree with "if this were not the case, then there would be no reason to ever build missile troopers", but do NOT with "I think its fine that the unit lose interception. This is a good thing". This is exactly the case where you would think about DELAYING the research of a specific tech.

Either you enable te unit to keep its interception ability, even at a lower rate (say 15-20 % instead of 30 %). This should also deal with any concerns like "there would be no reason to ever build missile troopers". Missile troppers would not be obsolete with such a mech, they could only be supported by the mech. This is even more true since the mk2's can't be promoted with +interception promos afaik.
Or you allow that the unit still can be produced so the player can decide itself, according to the specific circumstances of its actual game, if to produce this somewhat aged unit WITH interception or the brand-new without it.
Or you enable TWO new units at the tech containing the mk3: First, the mk3 "as it is" (after occasional tweaking of course). Second, a unit similar to the current mk2 unit (maybe minimal better). Then the player could decide which upgrade-path and which production queue to take. Also, this would adress your concerns about "there would be no reason to ever build missile troopers", since the mk2-like mech would be a increasingly outdated (the longer the more).
I dont know if the last two ways are possible to code, since upgrading rules may stand against it.
 
Either you enable te unit to keep its interception ability, even at a lower rate (say 15-20 % instead of 30 %).
This seems like a plausible compromise, dropping interception to 15%.

Or you allow that the unit still can be produced so the player can decide itself, according to the specific circumstances of its actual game, if to produce this somewhat aged unit WITH interception or the brand-new without it.
I'm not sure if it is possible to allow A to upgrade to B without having A go unbuildable?
Unless A can upgrade to B or some invisible placeholder unit C that never actually shows up?
What if we have the Mk II able to upgrade to the MkIII or the Mk IV?
Does this mean you would still be able to build the MkII when you had the tech for the MkIII?

I would rather avoid adding more units. 4 UUs is probably enough for the faction.
 
I'm not sure if it is possible to allow A to upgrade to B without having A go unbuildable?
There is an XML tag that allows this (bObsolete IIRC).
 
I decided to go ahead and play through a game, see how different units match up and just get a feel for what might work and what wouldn't to try to meet everyones goals as well as possible here. Sometime in the next few days I'll be back with some recommendations and ideas I'm working on. I'm really trying to fit all the pieces together and address everything as completely as possible before I do though.

There is an XML tag that allows this (bObsolete IIRC).

Not in vanilla, but there is an FfH tag that does this that I've been planning on adding for a few purposes for a while now and definitely fits into what I'm thinking.
 
Sometime in the next few days I'll be back with some recommendations and ideas I'm working on. I'm really trying to fit all the pieces together and address everything as completely as possible before I do though.
Sounds great, I look forward to seeing what you come up with.
While you're at it, think about the Ixian utility promotions (self-repair, etc.) and whether they are good enough but not too good (though I will imagine you will find them not super useful if you tend to promote every unit out of the gate, rather than withholding to see what you need at a given time).
 
Hi.

Just a few ideas I've had reading all this. Not sure what people might think of these was of doing things but thought it might be help to get a different perspective.

1. Bene Telix Tanks: Yes I know this was pages back but have only just got around to reading these forums. Wondering if you might be able to "load" (i.e. transport) a unit into a tank and that tank can build those and only those units at the bonus levels. Not even sure if that might be possible but thought I would leave that to you.

2. Ix tech units: Just a thought but I like the Faction but don't play with the units much. End up building the crawlers but only seem to build 1 or 2 of each of the others. Only build the Crawlers as they are good where they are but the rest are limited in use. Would rather build the general units that get the promotions and are better at it then the mechs.

Also like to point out that IX tech is tradable and limited. I've had a few games as IX and not been able to build IX tech as a AI got it first. Other times I've watched devastators with IX tech running about the map. Maybe a way for IX and Corrino to still build there stuff might be nice.

Just a few thoughts. I play with friends v's AI teams so might have a different game aproach.

Great mod though. Thumbs up :goodjob:
 
you played multi player game with dune wars?
you didn't have any troubles - out of sync red flickering message?

Some times we can do a game with it only happening once or twice. Other times it happens every 20 turns or so. The 20 turns is a recent thing from a friend using his laptop as his PC has died and he needs a new one. Do find games like this to be more fun with friends though.
 
Also like to point out that IX tech is tradable and limited. I've had a few games as IX and not been able to build IX tech as a AI got it first.
This cannot happen. If Ix is in the game, only an Ix player can get the Ixian weapons contract; it is blocked for others.
The only way this could happen is if there were multiple Ix players (which the mod is not designed to support). Or if Ix loses its city with the weapons Landing stage/contract. Or I guess if a city is blockaded and loses resource access.
[If it is happening under some other circumstances, then we have a bug.]

The other thing to note; in the current design, only 2/4 mech units are URU (unique resource units; buildable with the Ixian weapons resource), the other two are UU URUs (ie buildable only with the resource *and* by the Ixian faction). I think this should probably continue, though I'm not certain. We don't want it to be too easy to get control of other units special features, but we don't want the resource trading to be too weak either.

Great mod though. Thumbs up
Thanks, glad you enjoy it, and that multiplayer is working out for you.
 
Like Arihman said, the only case you should be beat to ixian weapons as the ixians is if you have more than one ixian player on the map. In normal circumstances, a player other than Ix can only get ixian weapons if there are no Ix players alive at the time.
 
The Proposal


The Big Picture

As should be obvious, I've dropped out the additional units, instead approaching this is a little differently. I'm still conviced the promotion/build options need to open up so that the player maintains some choices of what mech units to build instead of feeling railroaded by a restrictive and (somewhat) arbitrary system.

Another thing I realized in my test game playing with these mechanics is that Walkers and Striders are pretty much at the same tech level-in fact I researched the tech to build striders long before I could build Walkers. It can easily go either way. I realize this is related to what Arihman said the other day about the tech reorganization for 1.9, but I find with them being 'parallel' to each other gives an interesting choice to the research paths depending on if you feel you need one or the other more.

The most important thing this does as opposed to the old straight line approach is that through the mid game you have the choice of more than just one mech chassis, building and using them side by side or as the situation dictates. I can't stress enough how much not-fun it is to lose this choice in the particular situation. If you notice the words in red above them in the design doc, I don't want that choice to disappear once Tarantulas come into play, which will be accomplished by adding the FfH tag preventing units from becoming obsolete. By then these units will be somewhat 'aged', but since each mech has such a 'specialty' role, I don't want it to utterly disappear if the player wants to still use it. I'll be coming back to that point in a bit.

To Specialize or not to Specialize

There are a few things we can do aside from forcing wild unit bonus shifts with each upgrade to address this. I think a closely related issue to this was raised by Ahriman and is at the core of why specialization is or isn't a problem for mechs. He asked that if for instance Walkers upgrade to better Walkers, and thus promotions can be picked to benefit that role alone (and thus specialize), why would you ever build missile/mongoose troopers? This of course could be applied to some extent to any of the particular chassis 'specialties'.

I don't think it's an inherent problem that, for instance, Walkers do the Mongoose troopers job better(more or less, this isn't entirely true anyways, Mongoose are much better against vehicles), more so the problem is that, assuming they do, you can build as many as you want and thus never build a missile/mongoose trooper. This leads us to the real problem statement->We don't want players to have entire armies built only of mechs on Dune.

The proposal of course leaves in the choice to upgrade to a dissimilar chassis, but doesn't force it as a means of dissuading specialization. Instead, I'd rather allow the player the option to specialize their mechs if they aren't planning on upgrading it, but you are limited in how many of each mech chassis you can have at a time, making it so you can never compose your entire force of them. These numbers are generally lower than the unit limits for other limited unit classes since there are potentially more classes in play at a single time (you can field Walkers, Striders, Cymeks, and Tarantulas at the same time realistically by the end game).

I've proposed these numbers be somewhat pyramidal so that if you have all 8 Striders and 8 Walkers, only 6 can be upgraded to Tarantulas, leaving you with a still stratified line-up of mechs. I think encouraging the diversity inherent in them is a much better move than ending up with all the mechs in your army the exact same type.

Additionally, since it's not just a question of numbers of units, but also that the inherent 'specialized' nature of most mechs that makes too much specialization perhaps unpalatable, I'd propose allowing them access to only the first of each 'specialty' promotion (only shock I, not shock II), so limited specialization through promotions is possible, but not full specialization.

Time for a Promotion

Sticking with these basic ideas of using the diversity of the mech chassises and maintaining player choices (rather than narrowing to only Cymeks and Taratulas being useful in the late game), we need a way to keep Striders and Walkers useful. Instead of creating late game versions of them as I had before, an alternative is to create a Mech only late game promotion that adds base strength. This is more appropriate than a +%combat promotion because such promotions benefit units with higher base strength more, where as the inverse is true of a +BaseStrength promo. 13->15 strength (for Striders) is a bigger change than 20->22 for Tarantulas, without overpowering the higher end mechs.

Advanced Circuitry


I also like this idea because it's very thematic that mechs should become better with technology, and this simulates that without having to create 3 or 4 new units. The main point though is that without this or some individualized upgrade paths for each mech type as presented before, you will end up with just Cymeks and Tarantulas maintaining usefulness into the late game, which makes mechs less interesting, not more. I can't stress enough how much we should be encouraging players to use the diverse types of mechs in concert with each other. That's what can really make mechs feel different than any other unitcombat line.

There are some AI issues with increasing their late game strength with promotions instead of upgraded units, but this is a long enough post, I'll save that for later. Nothing I can't handle fairly easily fortunately.

Some Rebalance Suggestions

Looking back at the design proposal, under each unit some have some proposed stat changes (with the original in red). You may want to refer back to it as I get to each.

Walker
Walker's can tend to be just short-term situationally useful before mongoose troopers come into play, and it's a loooong way from there to Advanced Electronics, even beelining it. This pretty much leaves the typcial best option being to skip Walkers and go for mongoose troopers instead. They really need a little strength boost to make them more useful, and also, since they are a limited unit class, I've proposed giving them more, not less intercept chance than the missile/mongoose trooper. This makes them weaker against vehicles still (mongoose has a +100% vehicle mod), but better still very good in that department till heavy scorpions come against them, while giving better air cover. I'm still not sure this is enough, as they are still very similar to the mongoose.

Of course looking at the numbers, the payoff is eventually they can get the +2str promo that pushes them above mongoose troopers, but it's a long wait, they should have something that makes them unique and special from the mongoose trooper in the mean time. I'm not entirely happy with the current setup, suggestions are fully welcome :)

Strider
I get the want for a lot of different specializations, but this one was a little too specialized. It's no good if there biggest plus is their specialization but players don't have a need for that specialty. I really feel it's a good move to put these closer to the crawler in utility, while still giving a little change-up. Trust me, players will thank us for it, and they are the ones that matter ;)

Basically I was aiming for enough similarity that the player doesn't feel he's getting shafted by the upgrade (losing 'ignore building defense' in particular can feel very... shafty) while giving enough change that it's retains an interesting twist. This is definitely not something I'll be in the mood to compromise on :)

Cymek
This could go to 17 strength even, and in either case doesn't sound like a huge change from the original value, but it's balanced assuming the player will be able to add the +2str promo at some point, making it 18 or 19. I also brainstormed several different approaches to making them somewhat 'different' from other units. A free adaptive promo was my favorite, it's very thematic I'd think for a cybernetic brain to learn faster, has a real impact on play, and just generally makes a human actually want to use them over just building another heavy scorpion. I'm also open to other suggestions too, but I like this move.

Wrap it up Already

This post has taken a while to write (I scraped the first two or three drafts :mischief:), and I'm certain I've missed some points I wanted to make, but I think this approach captures the spirit and intentions of the original system while improving the usability and intuitiveness of where mechs fit in to a player's military plans. By opening up their options a little bit (read: taking out arbitrary build restrictions), making the promotion like less restrictive and more intuitive, and insuring usefulness of a range of mechs into the late game, they should actually be something a player will want to employ nearly as readily as they would sardauker or water debt units, but shouldn't be overpowered where they go for them every game.
 
Chriss wrote. "Of course looking at the numbers, the payoff is eventually they can get the +2str promo that pushes them above mongoose troopers, but it's a long wait, they should have something that makes them unique and special from the mongoose trooper in the mean time. I'm not entirely happy with the current setup, suggestions are fully welcome :)"

How about since they can be bigger then a person with a gun maybe have them shoot aircraft one square out too. Used to play call to power years ago and they had Walkers in there that could do this so thought it might ba a way to make them different. This way they could have same intercept or a little less but could cover a larger area.
 
@Chris
This certainly seems like a workable proposal, and a good compromise. At what techs would you put the walker and strider?
A limit of 5-6 feels a little low, I might make it 8 as well, but we can test.

The Advanced Electronics super-promotions is a good idea.
Cymeks starting with adaptive is a nice idea.

I don't think I would add multiple tile interception.
 
At what techs would you put the walker and strider?

I personally like where they are, no change proposed. They are on divergent but roughly equal tech paths, so there is a choice of which to aim for first, and they are balanced against other unit choices within that tech range.

A limit of 5-6 feels a little low, I might make it 8 as well, but we can test.

Yep, I'm going to try it at 6 and see how it plays out, then we can bring it back up if necessary.

How about since they can be bigger then a person with a gun maybe have them shoot aircraft one square out too. Used to play call to power years ago and they had Walkers in there that could do this so thought it might ba a way to make them different. This way they could have same intercept or a little less but could cover a larger area.

Hey, I always appreciate feedback and ideas. In this case I don't see this being useful enough to a player to justify introducing the added complexity, but don't let that discourage you ;), I throw out about 90% the ideas I have :lol:.

My current thoughts are similar though. Right now the mongoose is tougher against vehicles, the walker has a higher bonus vs thopters and a higher interception rate. But the differences are pretty minor and for the most part they overlap in use. I'm thinking of enhancing the walker's role as an AA specialist a little bit more still to make the difference more apparent.
 
I personally like where they are, no change proposed. They are on divergent but roughly equal tech paths, so there is a choice of which to aim for first, and they are balanced against other unit choices within that tech range.
Ok, let's test it out.

but don't let that discourage you , I throw out about 90% the ideas I have .
Absolutely! Please keep giving feedback and suggestions. Its only by getting lots of suggestions that we find the 10% of great ideas that improve the game.
 
Awesome!
A few things I noted: the Pilgrimage Site building is probably a bit too cheap.
Fremen aren't intended to be able to build any aircraft other than the first interceptor.
 
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