Coal: the new Uranium.

Coal has always been of one those strat resources (Coal/ sometimes Iron /Uranium) that i will 1)start a war over or 2)found a completely stupid/needless city over if that is the one single tile out in the middle of nowhere. but, Uranium used to be the one strat resource that i would raise any sized army for, or pay a CS/kill a CS for if i unluckily did not have any of. and preferably and sadly, i'd have to try to capture a CS for it b/c they usually won't have the tech to see their Uranium for quite some time, plus there's the CS resource bug in many situations.
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but now, with having Ideologies begin with either building 3 Factories or reaching the Modern era, Coal has become super-Uranium to me. Factories just on their own are super-important enough, but if i don't have coal, then i would have to wait all the way until the Modern era to gain access to Ideologies? no thanks, i'll just found this totally ridiculous city to get it

does this Ideology access rule seem arbitrary to you guys? i don't necessarily hate it, and even find it interesting in some ways even though it doesn't make sense to me.

ah yes, side question. can i raze my Ridiculous Coal City after building those factories, or does something happen?

High difficulty: Buy it from someone else.
Low difficulty: Get it from a CS (need to ally one that doesn't have a mine on it yet).

Usually you enter Industrial through Scientific Theory. Then there's only Electricity and Radio and you're in Modern Era. Using Oxford for one and and maybe a GS for the other (or just tech it normally) allows for a fairly quickly rush to Ideologies... if you really want there badly and can not get coal in any other way.
Don't know if you really need to rush it so much as there aren't too many useful - I've seen myself stop putting my points into Ideologies at some point and rather use them for more SPs.

PS: Uranium for me always was useless other than the extra prod the tile gives over what it did before discovering it.

hm well Tech Tree-wise it's not very far from Industrial to Modern. however gameplay-wise (pre-BNW) for me at least i may or may not be in a rush for Modern era just for it's own sake. but now it's mandatory if no coal. buying it from an AI is usually means a horrendous deal for me. but not always if we've been Friendly for some time, but also this depends on if they have a Coal Mine yet and/or need it.

Uranium to me is always vital, b/c Nukes+occupation team are my panic button if an AI is about to reach a win condition.

Without coal, I usually beeline to Modern instead unless the coal is convenient. Not necessarily the best way of doing things, but that's what I do.

Also, once I was doing poorly in the Ideology race, and decided to hang back (read: made no active attempt to reach the conditions) until most of the AIs made their choice. Still won from there, so it is possible to lag your Ideology and still win. Getting those good Level 2 and Level 3 tenets is obviously helpful, but getting SPs instead is better than nothing.

I bulb saved GS if I don't have any means to get coal. It's more important to get to ideologies than to get the benefit from labs plus 8 turns of science

Going to have to agree with you, civ54lyfe. If I am unlucky enough not to have coal in my borders or in a future location location I plan to settle, I'll invade any civ or city state for it. If I can become allies with a city state with coal then great but if they are far away and generally under the influence of other powers, its better to secure a permanent source.

Yeah...I COULD just wait until the Modern Age, but I also like railroads and factories....both of which require coal. So...if I don't have one....I'll be looking to acquire a source shortly thereafter.

Coal and uranium were never as important to me as aluminum.

Byzantine Bomb said:

Going to have to agree with you, civ54lyfe. If I am unlucky enough not to have coal in my borders or in a future location location I plan to settle, I'll invade any civ or city state for it. If I can become allies with a city state with coal then great but if they are far away and generally under the influence of other powers, its better to secure a permanent source.

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But you... don't need the permanent source. You just need it long enough to build the 3 factories.

Rathelon said:

Coal and uranium were never as important to me as aluminum.

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So many of the modern military units need it that i find it's essential. I usually play tall with 4 cities so building recycling centres in all of tthem only nets you 8.

I usually beeline industrialisation/electricty and biology once I've hit scientific theory to reveal the coal/oil and aluminium to allow me to form my late game strategy before I go back and catch up on the military tech side.

I once got 27 coal in one city's 3 ring radius, utterly ridiculous!

on higher levels, its sometimes not ideal to be the first to reach the ideologies. Sure you get the free policies, but if, for whatever reason, your game is not going particularly well, having the AI pick different ideologies from you will lead to quicker DOWs, or at least denouncements, not to mention negative decisions made against you in the world congress. Sometimes its actually better to wait to follow the pack, as to not create too many ripples that you might not be able to manage.

Having said that, if you're ahead or doing great, then by all means rush the ideologies.

I's say the exact opposite is the case @ dashwinner:
If you are behind, then you wanna be definitely first with ideologies (although it's unlikely) because first you get 2 (or maybe just 1) free tenets and also other civs are more likely to pick the same ideology as you did to prevent pressure in themselves which also turns them more friendly towards you (ok ok, nothing proven here, ai could very well not consider anything and just random one of the 3 anyway ).

See I don't regard coal as being so important because you only need 3 coal to build 3 factories and you can just skip out on building the Ironclad all together... after all you don't attack a city with an ironclad until after it is wittled down to 0 HP....

FeiLing said:

I's say the exact opposite is the case @ dashwinner:
If you are behind, then you wanna be definitely first with ideologies (although it's unlikely) because first you get 2 (or maybe just 1) free tenets and also other civs are more likely to pick the same ideology as you did to prevent pressure in themselves which also turns them more friendly towards you (ok ok, nothing proven here, ai could very well not consider anything and just random one of the 3 anyway ).

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I'll have to agree with Dashwinner on this one. You're actually correct in that the AI considers other civs' ideological choices before choosing one, but it isn't a particularly large part of the formula. In nearly all my Deity science games, I've rushed ideologies and would always get slapped with a heavy dose of unhappiness. However, my last few games I've been hanging back, and doing so has allowed me to CHOOSE my allies (based on proximity, power, threat, etc.), and they have gone much better.
However, on Emperor (sometimes Immortal) and below, assuming your culture is decent, rushing the ideologies is usually a good idea. I'm just saying it's usually not a great idea on Immortal/Deity.

Roblord said:

Yeah...I COULD just wait until the Modern Age, but I also like railroads and factories....both of which require coal. So...if I don't have one....I'll be looking to acquire a source shortly thereafter.

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I don't think you need coal for railroads... though that would make sense...

They could have a train station building - capital only, moves if capital is captured - gives 25% production (to compensate for the capital not getting a railroad bonus) - the railroad bonus to other cities doesn't take effect until the station is built - requires 1 or 2 coal until some late tech. I know VEM has one, but it's totally free and only serves to give the 25% bonus.

If you only have 3 coal, you have to choose between railroads or ideology!

Aaron90495 said:

However, on Emperor (sometimes Immortal) and below, assuming your culture is decent, rushing the ideologies is usually a good idea. I'm just saying it's usually not a great idea on Immortal/Deity.

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Exactly

i thought most AI will choose Order anyway. so you know the right one already.

Industrializing has proven rather important in the history of civilization. Coal is pretty much the easiest fosil fuel to find and burn. In the game, you can buy coal, just find a City State with coal and buy them, become their buddy, or as you alluded to kill them.

Another option is to plop down a Great General and usurp the land. City States don't like it, but they aren't declaring war over that.

My prefered strategy is to of course have my own coal, my second prefered strategy is to find a little buddy with coal, third is to convince the AI to give me coal. I rarely go to war for any reason other than self defence.

Becoming a friend/valued trading partner has its advantages. The patronage tree has always been a favourite of mine, but I'm trying to ween myself off of it as I always end up with diplomatic victories. I'm actually going Tradition -> Commerce in my current game and I'm Ethiopia, Ethiopia with lots of money. ;-)

I disagree with FeiLing, I have never seen an ai choose the same ideology as any other play if there are free policies in another ideology. Completely regardless of their playstyle, allies, and pressure.

civ54lyfe said:

i thought most AI will choose Order anyway. so you know the right one already.

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Yeah the AI seems to love Order, though Autocracy can exist among one or two civs in a game. Out of all my BNW games I've only seen the AI pick Freedom twice and both times they got jumped on by the Order-loving world.

BeakersGoMeep said:

I disagree with FeiLing, I have never seen an ai choose the same ideology as any other play if there are free policies in another ideology. Completely regardless of their playstyle, allies, and pressure.

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They definitely do choose Ideologies without free tenets even when one is available. In the last game I played the ideologies picked were: Order (me), Order, Order, Freedom, Order, Order, Order.